Rope Helmets

[Primvs Pavlvs]

What is the earliest these appear in artwork?

[Todd Feinman]

"Plaited" helmets are mentioned in ancient Hurrian texts from Nuzi --these are very possibly made from rope or material woven like rope; it is even possible that the Egyptian warriors shown fighting the Sea Peoples at Medinet Habu are wearing rope helmets:
http://i0.wp.com/lakodaemon.co.uk/wp-co ... 1024%2C717
Note the Sea Peoples' armour, too --right out of the Iliad.

[Russ Mitchell]

I was just looking at a rope basket in Starbucks earlier this week and realizing that this sort of thing would be SIGNIFICANTLY more protective than I'd previously assumed, and possibly superior to cuirboilli helmets.

[Dan Howard]

They provide a lot of protection but they are very heavy too. Metal and leather helmets tend to be lighter than these alternatives.

[Sean M]

I would be interested in any references to rope helmets in literature or documents. I suspect that it will be hard to tell whether earlier pictures are showing rope helmets, or a turban as drawn by someone who had never seen one. Although then again, 14th century Italians sometimes tied their hoods into something which looks a lot like a turban.

If these were really used in Europe in the 15th and 16th centuries, then there has to be some argument about whether the guild which made rope was allowed to make rope helmets, or a description in a chronicle of bandits with rope helmets, or the inventory of a really poor knight which lists them next to worn-out gambesons and cheap spears.

[Wolf]

i always saw you with a rope necklace rather than a rope helmet lol

[worldantiques]

Here is an African one, made from plaintan fibers, Peabody Museum.

[Ernst]

Perhaps we should refer to them as coiled or coil helmets, as the material can be rope, cloth, or other fiber?

[Sean M]

Perhaps we should refer to them as coiled or coil helmets, as the material can be rope, cloth, or other fiber?

That might be safer. As long as we just have pictures (and the one object in the Met with uncertain provenance which worldantiques found) there will always be several ways to interpret them. If you look in ethnographic collections and Tatton's Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour you can even find a few peoples who used wicker helmets.

[worldantiques]

As long as we just have pictures (and the one object in the Met with uncertain provenance which worldantiques found)

The Met actually has two very similar ones.

[Sean M]

Could you give the catalogue numbers? That would let us track them down and see why they think 15th century and German.

[Ernst]

14.25.608: http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the ... arch/27139
14.25.609: http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the ... arch/27140

A quick check under a microscope by some textile experts might give a material. About $600 and an agreement to have AMS testing done would settle the date issue.

[Sean M]

14.25.608: http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the ... arch/27139
14.25.609: http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the ... arch/27140

A quick check under a microscope by some textile experts might give a material. About $600 and an agreement to have AMS testing done would settle the date issue.

Thanks. What does that acronym mean?

Right now I don't see any reason to believe that the date and origin are anything more than a guess based on looking at pictures just like we are. The label "cap worn under mail" is almost certainly wrong.

[Ernst]

Accelerator mass spectrometry, used to detect carbon 14.

[worldantiques]

Right now I don't see any reason to believe that the date and origin are anything more than a guess based on looking at pictures just like we are. The label "cap worn under mail" is almost certainly wrong.

Sean, I do not have a lot of faith in many of the Mets descriptions, their two caps were donated in1913, no mention at all of how they came to conclude that they were to be worn under mail, on the other hand there is no evidence that they are wrong so when posting these questionable Met images I tend to attach their descriptions unless I am sure they are wrong.

One is described as being "Cerveliere Cap, 14th–15th century" and the other is described as being "Cerveliere (Cap Worn Under Mail) 15th century", so why the different dating and descriptions?

[Sean M]

I agree its good to quote all the information that the museum provides. I am also surprised that they say that both come from Uboldo on the northern border of Tuscany even though they say the caps are German in culture. A few museums let you read their notes on an object (usually a few pages of handwritten and typewritten paper) online and sometimes that can help. Sending a polite letter or email asking for a copy of their notes and any information which they have on how William H. Riggs acquired them would be a good first step for someone who was interested.

[worldantiques]

I agree its good to quote all the information that the museum provides.

Except when the description is obviously wrong, in the case of the Met this happens quite often, here is one of many glaring examples. The image below is of a Persian char-aina cuirass, it is a typical Persian design using known Persian decorations, and yet the met has mis-identified it as being "North Indian". This armor has no Indian armor characteristics, a beginner in the study of Indo-Persian armor could figure this one out.

[Primvs Pavlvs]

I think I might have to try and make one of these.

[Sean M]

I think I might have to try and make one of these.

I think we would all like photos if you do! Even the two in the Met are how an Italian basketweaver in 1913 or a miner in 1852 thought you should make one of these, they are still better than designing one from scratch.

[Ernst]

I still wonder if there's some hidden meaning in the various tormenters of Christ who are shown wearing these. The similarity between these and medieval bee skips makes me wonder if it isn't based on some idiom like having a "bee in the bonnet"?

[Sean M]

Yes, until we find some written evidence to support, a reasonable person could interpret them as just something which just existed in paintings and sculptures. But almost all images of poor soldiers in the late fourteenth century show biblical scenes or martyrdoms (and most of the rest Roman or Arthurian stories), and I doubt that the situation is much better in the fifteenth.

[Primvs Pavlvs]

I even have a source for hemp rope that's made by hand on 17th century equipment,

[Ernst]

In the numerous discussions on this forum concerning these rope helmets, the idea has been repeatedly put forward that they might be the equivalent of a hard-hat for construction workers. Although my primary study falls into the 13th and early 14th century, I don't remember seeing anything like these in images of construction of castles, cathedrals, or the Tower of Babel. Are there any sources showing these outside of the Passion images?

[Russ Mitchell]

It would be an admirable material for the job either as a construction-hat or under mail. Soft, strong, but yielding, much like strong felt, but very simple to make.

[Sean M]

It would be an admirable material for the job either as a construction-hat or under mail. Soft, strong, but yielding, much like strong felt, but very simple to make.

Yielding does not describe any of the natural-fibre rope I have handled, but more importantly I don't know of any evidence for these caps being worn under mail, and I am not sure that someone who could afford a cap of mail would need to save a few pennies on the lining. But until someone finds more evidence (other than the ones in the Met and the paintings of crucifixions and martyrdoms) there will be a lot that we don't know about these coiled helmets. I certainly don't object to the idea that miners or builders might have worn them.

[Ernst]

There are plenty of medieval construction scenes to be found. I'd be glad to find an example of them being used in a context outside of The Passion of Christ.

[Russ Mitchell]

Sean M,

The assumption there is the "affording mail coifs": we have inventories stockpiling the things for issue. I agree that there's a TON of uncertainty and hence "ymmv" going on here, though.

[Sean M]

Sean M,

The assumption there is the "affording mail coifs": we have inventories stockpiling the things for issue. I agree that there's a TON of uncertainty and hence "ymmv" going on here, though.

From what I have seen, by the 1360s mail armour was several times as expensive as plate which protected the same areas. So I'm not sure that someone who did not have access to half a yard of linen or fustian and some raw flax or scraps of old clothes would have been trusted not to sell or pawn a coif of mail. But in the end we won't know until we find these in documents.

[Sean M]

You can find some quite nice baskets made by this technique in 'world store' kind of stalls and stores https://basketsofafrica.com/weaving-baskets-in-rwanda/

A shield made by lacing a coiled outer part to a wooden core was found at Lenzen Castle in Brandenburg, DE. It dates to the 11th century https://www.patreon.com/posts/reconstructing-18988956 Here is one of the modern bowls / baskets/ trays made in the same way https://indegoafrica.org/products/copab ... woven-tray

Edit: other threads that mention the beehive, rope, or bee skip helmets are Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets) (2015) and Scale Bascinet - Is this for real... How would you build it? (2005)

I think I have seen a B&W picture of one on Bildindex or a similar German database.

Edit: apparently you can find the paintings under Master of the Karlsruhe Passion and two extant rope helmets in the Met accession number 14.25.609 and 14.25.608 (acquired in 1913 so they are old if not necessarily medieval)