The Leather Parts of Gauntlets

Sean M · Post by **Sean M** » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:34 am

Gloves and mittens of plates contain leathers to do various things, including a complete glove of leather or cloth. In this thread, lets talk about what we know about original gloves in the age of plate armour, and the modern substitutes which we find more or less useful.

Evidence
- One of the Churburg gauntlets still contains a lining glove of canvas. What is the best photo?
- There are a handful of whole or partial gloves in wet contexts from the Netherlands
- The glove of St. Zeno painted in the Basilica of San Zeno, Verona show the cut and stitching
https://bookandsword.files.wordpress.co ... tching.jpg
- The glove of Emperor Charles IV from Neustadt an der Waldnaab https://bookandsword.files.wordpress.co ... ldnaab.jpg https://www.onetz.de/neustadt-an-der-wa ... 97877.html
...

Tom B. · Post by **Tom B.** » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:25 am

Sean,

I am still recovering from a several week long bout of bronchitis so please excuse my lack of links or images, I plan to come back and make up for it with subsequent posts.

There are several gauntlets in Goll's thesis with fabric or leather gloves still installed. Some are questionable but several seem to be at least working life installations.

Here is a partial list of Goll numbers to look at.

Images & PDF Links added (click on images to open PDFs)
1040

1042

1050

1054

1061

1062

1078

1080
1092
1096
1106
1118
1126
1142
1178
1202

1239

1296

4904

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:41 am

Fingers with what appear to be original/working life leathers.
One interior view:
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-140.html

It looks like I need to take some more interior pictures of some other gauntlets. I know that I have at least one pair with what appears to be original leather between the washers and the plates on the articulated metacarpal. I don't seem to have taken pictures of that peculiar detail.

Wade

Sean M · Post by **Sean M** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:42 am

Thanks Tom and Wade. I will try to post something here in a few weeks if nobody else posts anything ... I just do not have a lot of knowledge on this topic. My main research on this topic was back in 2014 I think.

The 16th and 17th century gauntlets in Schloss Ambras are almost all missing their gloves, even if all the other leathers are there.

Karen Larsdatter has a page on gloves and mittens http://larsdatter.com/gloves.htm

I would think there would be some room for a chat about things like "what kinds of modern leather make good supports for the finger scales?"

Sean M · Post by **Sean M** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:47 am

Mac, [url=http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=169445&start=2310]Dusting off the Cobwebs thread[/url] page 67 wrote: Historically, the "go to" for internal leathers would have been buff. The epidermis will have been removed, and both sides will look about the same.

The thing you want is suppleness without stretchyness. I am using a heavy chrome tanned split. It's basically like those "craft" splits that one can get from Tandy's, but much thicker... about 10oz or so. I bought a lifetime supply of it at a leather store in Syracuse NY about 20 years ago. I have no idea where to get any more. The store is long closed and the brothers who owned it long dead.

Lining strips seem to have been thinner versions of a similar thing... probably an oil tanned (but possibly tawed) calf or perhaps some other ungulate. Sometimes they had the epidermis intact, but often it had been removed.

What you need most here is a relatively thin (4-5 0z) leather that will sew well without tearing out. Deer skin would do OK, but it is a bit too "glovey" and prone to stretching. Chamois ("shammy" from the local auto parts house) has pretty good properties but is a bit thin. I'm using a "nubuck" chrome tanned leather. When I run out, I'm not at all sure where my next side is coming from. One of those "craft splits" of a suitable color might work OK. Perhaps a rule or thumb for lining strip leather might be to ask the question "would I buy work gloves made of this?" If the answer is "no, they'd be too stiff" leave it. If the answer is "no, they'd be too stretchy" leave it. If the answer is " no, they'd wear out in no time", leave it. Lining strip leather is one of those things you have to actually handle (and stick an awl through the edge of) before you buy. If you can stick an awl through it about one thickness from the edge and have trouble tearing it out sideways, that's a good sign. If the awl splits the leather out to the edge, don't even consider it further.

Warning! Mini-rant ahead.

In either of these cases, one has to be wary of falling into the classic reenactor's trap of "pedigree vs. properties". Vegetable tanned leathers will not give you the characteristics you need. If you can't get what they actually did use, you have to substitute something behaves similarly, and not something else that they would have had but didn't use.

Mac

Sean M · Post by **Sean M** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:19 pm

Correct attachment of gloves to 15th century mitten gauntlet viewtopic.php?f=1&t=136934&hilit=glove

Tom B wrote:After looking through Matthias Goll's book I don't see any additional attachments, between gloves and steel, on these style gauntlets apart from the ones already mentioned.

1. Finger tip leathers (including thumb)
2. Tabs on either side of metacarpal plate
3. Gauntlet cuff
4. Outer edge of large thumb base plate
5. Sometimes leather tabs on either side of middle wrist plate.

Tom

Mac wrote:Enrico,

This is what I would expect to see in way of attachment of gloves to Gothic gauntlets....

--A leather strip riveted to the terminal finger lame. This would be sewn to the end of the glove. Note, that a mitten gauntlet would probably have a *mitten* glove as well.

--A pair of leather tabs riveted to the metacarpal. One would be in the "crotch" of the thumb, and the other on the little finger side. These tabs are sewn to the palm of the glove. They take the place of the palm strap, but with a lot less bulk.

--A tab on the plate that covers the base of the thumb. This might be a separate tab, of it might be a continuation of the leather to which the thumb scales are also riveted. If the later, it forms a sort of lining that is the same shape as the plate. This is sewn to the glove at the ball of the thumb.

--There is sometimes a pair of leather strips riveted into the articulating rivets of the mitten; one on the first finger side and another on the little finger side. These are broad enough to provide a margin of leather beyond the armor to which to sew the sides of the lining glove. I have not seen these on Gothic gauntlets, but I have seen it on particularly well preserved Maximillian mittens. Since these leathers share a rivet with the articulation, it is easy to see where they can go missing in a couple of hundred years and leave no trace. With other lining strips, there are dedicated rivets, the presence of which lets us deduce their former presence when they have rotted away; but here we are left guessing.

--There should be a strap on the cuff. This keeps the cuff of the gauntlet close to the arm, and gathers up the cuff of the glove.

I would not expect to find any attachments at the wrist. Although this seems like a good place to secure the glove, I do not recall having seen any tabs, or even rivets in this location.

Likewise, the cuff of the gauntlet is *not* attached to the cuff of the glove. In many other styles of gauntlet, the cuff is attached, but not in Gothic gauntlets. I don't know why this is. Perhaps they felt that the rivets detracted from the graceful lines.

Mac

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:I would like to add that in ALL the artwork of whatever sort I have seen, the cuff of the lining glove of German 'gothic' gauntlets shows no signs of being secured to the cuff of the steel gauntlet.

Are the gloves in the Churburg gauntlets original? viewtopic.php?f=1&t=130195&hilit=mac+gloves+trapp

Gloves- What are the best gloves for finger gauntlets? viewtopic.php?f=1&t=168895&p=2570344&hi ... e#p2570344

Various forum members wrote:Leather drovers' gloves combine softness, durability, comfort and fit. Add a gauntlet cuff if needed; you just stitch it on to the wrist end of the glove, straight on round and round. If necessary, find a western-wear shop. Cowboys use them to handle lariats all day.
...
mig welders gloves
...
https://deerskingloves.com/ model G-316BK
"riggers' gloves
Wells-Lamont gloves
Aerostitch Elkskin Ropers http://www.aerostich.com/aerostich-elkskin-ropers.html

Where to buy quality gloves for gauntlets? viewtopic.php?f=1&t=167683&p=2549490&hi ... e#p2549490

I think there is a lot of room to talk about the articulation leathers and about the properties of the original gloves and leathers.

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:45 pm

I have been re-evaluating my thoughts on what was used for gauntlet gloves over the 14th and 15th centuries. It's interesting that the one gauntlet in Tom's list that has a cloth glove is the oldest of the examples. Churburg has two early gauntlets that have cloth gloves, the hourglass ones that they display with the segmented breastplate, and the ones displayed with S18. I'm starting to think that most 14th century and early 15th century gauntlets probably had cloth cloves.

I did find some leather that is very supple, not stretchy, and looks very much like the original leather. Unfortunately it came from a leather cutoffs bag that my wife purchased for her beading projects. So I have no idea where it came from and i'm not sure if it's chrome tanned or not. Doesn't chrome tan have a lighter color center when you look at the edge? I can post some pics if that would help.

Christian Wiedner · Post by **Christian Wiedner** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:08 pm

I finally found someting that probably will work as modern substitute. At least they look pretty similar. They are made of chamois and most important (what I think) with a continuous NOT attached cuff...

: P1170322.JPG (60.58 KiB) Viewed 4074 times

: P1170323.JPG (61 KiB) Viewed 4074 times

: P1170341.JPG (83.62 KiB) Viewed 4074 times

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:05 pm

What are those gloves?
What are they made out of?
Where do they come from?

Wade

Christian Wiedner · Post by **Christian Wiedner** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:01 pm

I am sorry.
What do you mean with "what are those gloves"?
They are made of chamois leather if this is the correct term.

Oh yes and the scale is cm.

jester · Post by **jester** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:40 pm

Christian Wiedner wrote:I am sorry.
What do you mean with "what are those gloves"?
They are made of chamois leather if this is the correct term.

Oh yes and the scale is cm.

Christian,

Where did you obtain the gloves from and what purpose were they intended for?

Thank you.

Christian Wiedner · Post by **Christian Wiedner** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:06 pm

Jester,
they are made by a local manufactorer to my wishes.

Tom B. · Post by **Tom B.** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:15 pm

Christian Wiedner wrote:Jester,
they are made by a local manufactorer to my wishes.

When can we place our orders?

Or how about a some nice split mittens from Mac's pattern?
link to PDF of Mac's pattern

Christian Wiedner · Post by **Christian Wiedner** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:30 pm

How many do you want?

Sean M · Post by **Sean M** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:21 am

The other thing that I notice is that gauntlets in 14th century Italian art and texts usually have brightly coloured gloves inside, but these surviving gloves are dull browns and yellows. Have they lost their dye, or was there a change in fashion?

For the people reading along in the Plictho de Lare de Tentore, phrases I remember are cuio rosso and cuio vermilglio. I know nothing about medieval dying for leather, but 16th century dyers might have described the results of a process with the same words as 14th century merchants.

Good sources for coloured gloves in art are http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4360/9255/ http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4365/16765/ http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4317/7121/ (each of those manuscripts has many other examples)

That matters because the colourful gloves were part of 'the look' ... sort of like lining the pavillion of your camail with cendal or red linen instead of unbleached linen, or wearing a hip belt with lots of bling and a hidden tail, or including lots of oversized brass rivets.

Christian Wiedner · Post by **Christian Wiedner** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:04 am

Maybe the fashion changed. There are still red gloves in the 15th but lots of "natural" colors, too. They range from almost white to dark brown. I found several examples. Here are some of light color:

: 1490-1490, Angst Altar, Nuremberg.jpg (37.91 KiB) Viewed 4023 times

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Christian Wiedner · Post by **Christian Wiedner** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:07 am

...more light

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: IMG_7055.jpg (92.99 KiB) Viewed 4022 times

Christian Wiedner · Post by **Christian Wiedner** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:09 am

: The%20Resurrection%20of%20Christ.jpg (92.79 KiB) Viewed 4022 times

: St_Geo.jpg (88.35 KiB) Viewed 4022 times

: PT-TT-CR-D-A-1-19_m0026.jpg (94.58 KiB) Viewed 4022 times

Christian Wiedner · Post by **Christian Wiedner** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:11 am

: IMG_7052.jpg (96.21 KiB) Viewed 4022 times

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Christian Wiedner · Post by **Christian Wiedner** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:13 am

Here are some of a medium color:

: 1470-80Alte Pinakothek.jpg (94.92 KiB) Viewed 4022 times

: ca. 1506-1507 - 'Dreikönigsaltar' (Hans Baldung Grien), Gemäldegalerie, Berlin, Germany5.jpg (94.48 KiB) Viewed 4022 times

: gallery_21852_526_26370.jpg (96.87 KiB) Viewed 4022 times

Christian Wiedner · Post by **Christian Wiedner** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:16 am

more medium

: Michael Wolgemut Crailsheim, Baden-Württemberg, Johanneskirche.jpg (95.47 KiB) Viewed 4022 times

: IMG_6894.jpg (94.42 KiB) Viewed 4022 times

Christian Wiedner · Post by **Christian Wiedner** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:18 am

The dark ones

: CA26C9~1.jpg (92.79 KiB) Viewed 4022 times

: 1465-1475 Leonhard von Brixen, Brixen 3.jpg (88.25 KiB) Viewed 4022 times

: CGM_1507_20r.jpg (94.49 KiB) Viewed 4022 times

Christian Wiedner · Post by **Christian Wiedner** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:19 am

And finally the red ones

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Tom B. · Post by **Tom B.** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:55 am

Two other threads to look at:

bifurcated gloves for a gauntlet
Phillip II's bifurcated gauntlets. How do the fingers work?

Tom B. · Post by **Tom B.** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:50 am

cca 1500, north-western Bohemia.

before 1489 - 'St. Ursula Shrine' (Hans Memling), Memlingmuseum, Sint-Janshospitaal, Brugge, province of West Flanders, Belgium

No Glove?
ca. 1490-1500 - 'St. George, Triptych with Throning Madonna' (Master of the Antwerp Triptych of Maria), Koninklijk Museum voor Schone Kunsten, Antwerpen, province of Antwerp, Belgium

1510-13 Deposizione dalla Croce (dettaglio)_by Giovanni Antonio Bazzi (detto Il Sodoma)_Pinacoteca Nazionale di Siena

ca. 1506-07

Saint George and the Dragon statue from the Met

Tom B. · Post by **Tom B.** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:26 am

A few more from Churburg via Goll

1150

1165

1167

1259

1301

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:37 am

Has anyone got a color pic of the Black Prince's gauntlets? I think the gloves are light brown, but I can't remember why I think so.... perhaps that's what they used for the 20th C repros.

Mac

Tom B. · Post by **Tom B.** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:05 am

Mac wrote:Has anyone got a color pic of the Black Prince's gauntlets? I think the gloves are light brown, but I can't remember why I think so.... perhaps that's what they used for the 20th C repros.

Mac

From Mann's book: Edward the Black Prince / the Funeral Achievements

I also found this, not sure of the source:
"The lining is of buff leather embroidered with silk"

Sean M · Post by **Sean M** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:53 pm

When I looked at gloves inside gauntlets in the Queste del Saint Graal and Guiron le Courtoise a few years ago, the only colours I noticed were red and green (eg. http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4365/16759/ and http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4317/7113/). Colours in the white-blonde-brown range show up in later art.

What is that limited range of colours telling us about the kind of skin they used? And is the blue linen in the S. 18 glove at Churburg original? The Italians dyed a lot of linen in the 14th century, and skin used for other purposes was often dyed black.

Sean M · Post by **Sean M** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:10 pm

Unfortunately, gloves seem to be mostly published in obscure archaeological reports that you need interlibrary loan to obtain. When I ordered some of those reports, I found that often they just mentioned that a glove had been found and catalogued. Back in 2014, I found two overviews by archaeologists which are available online:

Marloes Rijkelijkhuizen, "Leather Gloves and Mittens - Examples Recovered from the Netherlands," Archaeological Leather Group Newsletter 38 (September 2013) https://www.academia.edu/10953231/Leath ... etherlands

Rijkelijkhuizen 2013: Rijkelijkhuizen, M. 2013 "Two mystery objects and a calfskin glove: exceptional leather finds from Gorinchem, the Netherlands," Archaeological Leather Group Newsletter 37, 3-6. http://www.academia.edu/11413035/Two_my ... etherlands

Key sentences: "Leather was used in combination with textile and embroidered cuffs. The archaeological record, however, only leaves us with the vegetable tanned examples, while the white tawed and chamois leather gloves disintegrate in the soil. The type of leather from the glove fragments remaining on archaeological sites is often difficult to identify." Rijkelijkhuizen could only name three fourteenth-century gloves in published excavations in the Netherlands.

There is also a book on early gloves excavated in the Netherlands http://www.medievalhistories.com/gloves ... -the-past/

Sean M · Post by **Sean M** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:35 pm

Annemarie Willemsen, 'Taking Up the Glove,' Post-Medieval Archaeology Vol. 49 Issue 1 (2015) pages 1-36 http://dx.doi.org/10.1179/0079423615Z.00000000069 wrote:A recent addition to this corpus of archaeological gauntlets is a discovery from Delft, found in the ditch alongside the town wall. The gauntlet has been associated with the siege of Delft in 1359 because with the pieces of metal, small fragments of leather were preserved that were dated by accelerator mass spectometry to 1340–70. [www.maandvandegeschiedenis.nl/55214/nl/
wapenwant-archeologie-delft] This leather was investigated by Carol van Driel-Murray (Leiden University), who underlines that it would have been impossible to recognize these pieces as belonging to a glove had they not been found with the gauntlet itself. This means that the leather parts of gauntlets may well be almost unidentifiable archaeologically.

As far as I know, Carol van Driel-Murray is the Athena of archaeological leather in Europe, so its very important that she looked at this find shortly after it was excavated. Unfortunately, the above link is broken: the page has been deleted from http://www.maandvandegeschiedenis.nl, the Google cache, and the Wayback Machine.

Arrakis · Post by **Arrakis** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:50 pm

http://dx.doi.org/10.1179/0079423615Z.00000000069

Unfortunately, the above link is broken: the page has been deleted from http://www.maandvandegeschiedenis.nl, the Google cache, and the Wayback Machine.

Hi Sean, the doi link works for me. Is that the link you said was broken? It leads, for me, to Taylor & Francis's page for the article "The Geoff Egan Memorial Lecture 2013 Taking up the glove: finds, uses and meanings of gloves, mittens and gauntlets in western Europe, c. AD 1300–1700" in Post-Medieval Archaeology, Volume 49, 2015 - Issue 1. The website, as is typical, offers options to purchase the article, though of course they're absurdly expensive. Perhaps someone with a University access to that Journal could help?

Sean M · Post by **Sean M** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:46 pm

Arrakis wrote:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1179/0079423615Z.00000000069

Unfortunately, the above link is broken: the page has been deleted from http://www.maandvandegeschiedenis.nl, the Google cache, and the Wayback Machine.
Hi Sean, the doi link works for me. Is that the link you said was broken? It leads, for me, to Taylor & Francis's page for the article "The Geoff Egan Memorial Lecture 2013 Taking up the glove: finds, uses and meanings of gloves, mittens and gauntlets in western Europe, c. AD 1300–1700" in Post-Medieval Archaeology, Volume 49, 2015 - Issue 1. The website, as is typical, offers options to purchase the article, though of course they're absurdly expensive. Perhaps someone with a University access to that Journal could help?

Hi Arrakis,

no, it was the Dutch website which the journal article cites to back up the statement "The gauntlet has been associated with the siege of Delft in 1359 because with the pieces of metal, small fragments of leather were preserved that were dated by accelerator mass spectometry to 1340–70."

I quoted the key part of the journal article so people without access to a big university library could read it. I would be happy if someone with real leatherworking skills took these academic books and articles and made some 14th/15th century style gloves.

Tom B. · Post by **Tom B.** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:00 pm

Here is another article that may be worth looking at for someone with access:

The Geoff Egan Memorial Lecture 2013 Taking up the glove: finds, uses and meanings of gloves, mittens and gauntlets in western Europe, c. AD 1300–1700
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10 ... 0000000069

Tom B. · Post by **Tom B.** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:10 pm

For what it is worth I have created a Pinterest board for gloves

I have included extant examples from a wide date range (not just medieval), I also have included examples from art as well as archeological drawings.
I have chosen to mostly omit recreated patterns, even those from otherwise good archeological sources, due to the many inaccuracies I have seen.
Sometimes they show their proposed/recreated pattern next to the archeological drawing and photos of the extant object.
Usually the archeological drawing and the extant object match up well but often their recreated pattern does not.

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