The Armour Archive

I'm going to have some stuff to fight in for the tail end of this SCA season, but I plan on reworking things over the winter to be much, much more authentic.

Now I'm inviting you all to poke holes in what I'm currently looking at doing and hopefully answer some questions for me.

I'm trying to look like an English soldier fighting with the Black Prince as he spends the year burning French cities.

- A Bascinet with an aventail.
What type of face-plate is most authentic? A rounded one of a pig-face? Would the aventail always be mail?

- Body armour of some sort
A globose? A CoP? Just plain mail? Which would be most typical? Am I missing any options?

- Splinted arm and leg defenses
Soup can poleyns? Would that be the style for the couters as well? Should I have steel greaves or just splint the whole thing?

- Something on my feet
What type of sabotons would be most appropriate? Covered in leather?

Thanks in advance for any input. One day I hope to be able to answer some of these questions for someone on here.

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Simon de Lacy

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
- A Bascinet with an aventail.
What type of face-plate is most authentic? A rounded one of a pig-face? Would the aventail always be mail?
</B>a side pivoting pig faced visor is most authentic and SCA legal. the aventail would be almost exclusive mail, there are some examples of a cloth covering the mail but most of what ive seen is mail alone.<B>
- Body armour of some sort
A globose? A CoP? Just plain mail? Which would be most typical? Am I missing any options?</B>a coat of plates is the norm. options such as making a jupon with plates in pockets work well and keep the cost down and look high.<B>

- Splinted arm and leg defenses
Soup can poleyns? Would that be the style for the couters as well? Should I have steel greaves or just splint the whole thing?</B> roundel elbows and splinted arm defences are simple and easy to make yet are on the lesser nobility side. Full steel churburgish arms seem to be the upper crust sort. "soup can polyens" is the wrong term poleyn is accurate enough to describe what your talking about. its kinda like saying "chamber pot sallet" yea you could crap in it since the edge is rolled for comfort but.... Legs are easier to play around with but you should have greaves and quisse in suite. <B>

- Something on my feet
What type of sabotons would be most appropriate? Covered in leather?</B>Ive yet to see sabatons covered in leather that look good. some light guage sabatons well polished with a touch of brass make the entire kit roll together well.<B>
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Generally speaking, compiling a photo album of effigies all in roughly the same time frame would be the way to mix and match parts of a transitional kit.


[This message has been edited by Samuel (edited 08-24-2001).]

"soup can polyens" is the wrong term poleyn is accurate enough to describe what your talking about. its kinda like saying "chamber pot sallet" yea you could crap in it since the edge is rolled for comfort but....

I was referring to the style of poleyn mentioned in this other thread:
http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/005066.html

Thanks for the reply.

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Simon de Lacy

hehe np that term just makes me wanna bark:-)

Out of curiosity, would articulated knees and elbow cops be apropriate with the above kit and that timeframe? I ask because my kit is going to be very similar, but with articulated knees and floating elbow cops, and steel gutter grieves. When would such a combination have made an apearance in western Europe?
Thanks
John

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"and the springfieldians heroicly slaughtered there enemys while they prayed for mercy!"

Articulated elbows where in use in 1350's based on seeing them on effigies. Leg armor developed slower than arm armor for some reason it seems. as to floating elbows Id have to get claification. if your talking about the sort of gothic style of point then I can safely say no they were not in use in the 1350's. if your talking about a roundel elbow tied with cords to a gambison then yes but Ive never seen anything denoting elbows being worn with a vambrace so the floating concept that most of the SCA has doesnt apply.

Form what I have gathered, articulated Knees are more of a 1410 invention. in the 1350 era only the calvary had really gotten into the transition of armor and they still wore knee cops attached to quisses etc. horsemen didnt need articulation in legs much til they began to fight on foot.

IMO if your going with articulated Knees aka "archers Knees" you should shoot for 1400. During Crecy and Poitiers the fashion was still more inclined to polyens. and articulated legs where more of the Agincourt time frame.

As a soldier you would most likely have so little armour you could not fight SCA. It was mostly the knights which had the better, more up to date armour. But I guess you already know all that.
The globose breastplate from Churburg has recently been redated to 1365-41, still out of your period. A CoP seems to have been your only option at the time, and it seems even many soldiers had them.
As for helms, even the knights still did not have the high, back point bascinets, so a soldier would most likely only have a low pointed or rounded bascinet with high sides, maybe just covering the ears. It could have vervelles, but the aventail was often attached directly to the helm edge at that time. Kettle helms were popular with sodliers.
Harold the Bear had a similar question, it's a couple of pages back on the Armour-Design & Construction forum.

Erik

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Out of curiosity, would articulated knees and elbow cops be apropriate with the above kit and that timeframe?</font>

Yes. Effigies I've seen have articualted arms/legs, but they tend to be a cop with a lame above and below instead of the five piece articulation commonly seen in SCA kits. Some legs I've seen (on effigies and period illustrations) are articulated directly to the cop which to me would seem difficult to make work. Dwarlock has a pattern for splinted arms on here that is very nice. the leather is attached directly to an elbow cop. A set of Ron Simmons cops, some leather, some splints, and some rivets and you'd be in business.

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Emm aye sea kayee why. Emm ohyou essee.

[This message has been edited by edward atte flynt (edited 08-25-2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Samuel:
hehe np that term just makes me wanna bark:-)</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What would be a more correct way of describing that style?

And are they even remotely appropriate for 1355?

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Simon de Lacy

polyens.

Im fairly sure there are accounts of them being recorded in the kits of knights.

Okay, groovy. I was under the impression that poleyn was merely another term for shaped metal knee protection.

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Simon de Lacy