Carol van Driel-MurrayArticle on Scabbards from Leiden

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Sean M
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Carol van Driel-MurrayArticle on Scabbards from Leiden

Post by Sean M »

This was originally published in a rare Dutch archaeological report as "Zwaardscheden en andere vondsten uit de 14de eeuw uit de Marktenroute te Leiden" and is now available in English as "Fourteenth-century sword sheaths from Leiden city centre." In Quita Mould (ed.) Leather in Warfare: Attack, Defence and the Unexpected. (Leeds: Royal Armouries Museum, 2017) pp. 34-47

https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstr ... sequence=1

Unfortunately, these finds and the finds from Schleswig probably date to the early 14th century.

I have been pondering the problem of sword suspensions in the 1360s and 1370s, when swords often hang vertically from the plaque belt without a complicated arrangement to hold them at an angle as before 1330 or after 1410. That probably worked better for horsemen than for most of us pedestrians

Has anyone tried to make a wood-cored, leather-covered scabbard? How were the chapes made?
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Re: Carol van Driel-MurrayArticle on Scabbards from Leiden

Post by Sean M »

Back in 2010, Will McLean noticed that on a few effigies and brasses, short decorated straps connect the scabbard to the plaque belt at an angle https://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.n ... laque.html

- Effigy of Lodewijk van Lichtervelde, Heer van Koolskamp (+1375)
- Brass of John de St. Quentin (+1397)

I noticed something else in BNF Français 343 which makes me ask whether the artists are swindling us:

Image

So the arsegirdle is not the only belt! There is a separate narrow one with angled straps holding the sword.

There is a similar arrangement, but with the straps coming together where they touch the belt, on folio 64r.

That would explain the pictures where a narrow strap is wrapped around the scabbard when it is not being worn, wouldn't it? Sometimes the straps seem to meet the scabbard at a right angle, so we are back to the 'upright scabbard' from art. I just wonder if these short straps might have been less rare than they seem in art.
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Re: Carol van Driel-MurrayArticle on Scabbards from Leiden

Post by Gerhard von Liebau »

Sean M wrote:Unfortunately, these finds and the finds from Schleswig probably date to the early 14th century.
And fortunately for me! Just up my alley.
Sean M wrote:Has anyone tried to make a wood-cored, leather-covered scabbard? How were the chapes made?
Thanks for the link to the article, Sean! That was very interesting - I skimmed a few sections because it's 7am and my coffee isn't ready yet. I'm actually impressed that there was so much decorative tooling on roughly 1/5 of the finds. It made my heart ache to read that there were many more scabbards present in the trench, and that the resources and time available to the archaeologists prevented them from collecting everything... Oh, how different it would have been today!

As far as your last question, that's pretty much how everyone makes their scabbards because that's what most of the evidence presents. I've only made a double-ply leather scabbard with a steel chape when I was younger, but am looking forward to finally doing some wood core work soon, since I have a reason to. Chapes are simply shaped to fit over the tip of the scabbard and glued into place, usually, or else riveted on the very outside edges where it won't affect the blade moving freely inside.

Based on other surviving scabbards and numerous artistic depictions, it's actually become popular to make reproduction scabbards that are chapeless, and this was probably common practice at times. Only a few of the scabbards shown in the article have enough of the tips surviving to show impressions of or to be associated with chapes, so it's possible that many of them may not have had them in the first place.

-Gerhard
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Re: Carol van Driel-MurrayArticle on Scabbards from Leiden

Post by Gerhard von Liebau »

If you're curious to see what some of the finer examples of reproduction wood-core scabbards look like these days, here are some of the top makers who try to maintain an eye towards historicity.

http://artofswordmaking.com/

http://sulowskiswords.com/

http://www.robert-moc.sk/

Obviously, being craftsmen who are constantly trying to up their standards, these fellows are getting slightly carried away with the decoration... It's still lovely inspiration!
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Re: Carol van Driel-MurrayArticle on Scabbards from Leiden

Post by Mac »

Sean,

I suspect that there are several ways to suspend a sword in the late 14th C, and that there were regional and personal preferences. On the other hand, I don't thing the artists are scamming us when they show a one-point attachment to an arse girdle. It was almost certainly a real thing and it had its heyday.

Unfortunately, that fashion happens at intersection of of two things that give reenactors trouble. It's like we think about what we see and say "that can't possibly work.... there must really be some hidden secrete". To my mind there has been a lot more ratiocination , inventive speculation, and search for alternatives than straight-up trying what's in the pictures and seeing how it works.

I recommend starting with a good tight fitting arse girdle and then moving on to trying to hang a sword from it. The worse that can happen is that you end up with a perfectly good belt, and scabbard that doesn't behave conveniently. You can always fall back to a different suspension method, but if you don't try doing the most common thing you'll never know how it works.

Mac
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Re: Carol van Driel-MurrayArticle on Scabbards from Leiden

Post by Sean M »

Gerhard von Liebau wrote:If you're curious to see what some of the finer examples of reproduction wood-core scabbards look like these days, here are some of the top makers who try to maintain an eye towards historicity.

http://artofswordmaking.com/

http://sulowskiswords.com/

http://www.robert-moc.sk/

Obviously, being craftsmen who are constantly trying to up their standards, these fellows are getting slightly carried away with the decoration... It's still lovely inspiration!
Ooh, pretty! Right now I am most interested in sources and practical advice though. I don't think I can afford to buy a scabbard for the swords I already own, but if I borrow some tools I can probably make one! C clamps and a dremel and a place to leave something 3 feet long to dry are not hard to borrow.

Ye Old Gaffer has a tutorial on scabbardmaking which would work well in concert with studies of original finds.
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Re: Carol van Driel-MurrayArticle on Scabbards from Leiden

Post by Sean M »

Mac wrote:To my mind there has been a lot more ratiocination , inventive speculation, and search for alternatives than straight-up trying what's in the pictures and seeing how it works.

I recommend starting with a good tight fitting arse girdle and then moving on to trying to hang a sword from it. The worse that can happen is that you end up with a perfectly good belt, and scabbard that doesn't behave conveniently. You can always fall back to a different suspension method, but if you don't try doing the most common thing you'll never know how it works.

Mac
Mac, in that spirit I went out and tried to put some of the belt mounts which arrived last fall on my belt blank. So far I have bent two thick brass integral rivets and badly attached the strap end :(

My guy is not the kind who wears an enamelled silver belt, but eventually I will make a nice broad belt with dense copper-alloy or silver mounts. I have been cross-referencing Dutch and English small finds with the Franciscan missal. That painter loved to show the belts of the thugs crucifying Jesus.

Ian LaSpina found Portable antiquities scheme ESS-D85B66 which is a latoun throat for a scabbard with an integral staple on the back. He likes to run a short strap around his plaque belt and through the staple. gaukler has handled something similar. But Ian is aiming for a much more respectable gentleman than I am (=whisper= although I hear he had to pawn his silver belt and wear a brass one).

I can think of making a scabbard, but only by following instructions, not designing it from scratch. I am just not handy enough to design a working system from scratch :(

Maciej Kopciuch does a simple belt with a short end fixed near the throat and a long end adjustable a few inches lower but gives no source http://artofswordmaking.com/gallery/ger ... late-14thc That is consistent with some of the art in Français 343 (such as folio 32) but the artist could also be showing a simple belt passing through the scabbard. What do we think about that for the men-at-arms who could not afford a silver belt?
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Re: Carol van Driel-MurrayArticle on Scabbards from Leiden

Post by Gerhard von Liebau »

I just realized the decorations on the scabbard you just linked from Maciej's gallery is based on one of the Leiden scabbards drawn in the article. Cool. :)

-Gerhard
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Re: Carol van Driel-MurrayArticle on Scabbards from Leiden

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Sean M wrote: Mac, in that spirit I went out and tried to put some of the belt mounts which arrived last fall on my belt blank. So far I have bent two thick brass integral rivets and badly attached the strap end :(
This is a problem with modern brass castings. Everyone has shifted away from traditional copper/zinc brasses in favor of silicon bronze. They do this to avoid the noxious zinc fumes, and one can see their point. The problem is that silicon bronze doesn't bend or peen like old fashioned brass.

Sometimes (in my Billy and Charlie capacity) people ask me to attach their "brass" (silicon bronze) fittings for them. I generally refuse, because I am afraid of screwing them up. The best way to deal with modern integral rivets is to remove them and drill holes in the casting for soft brass rivets. This is not always a possibility, of course.

Sean M wrote: My guy is not the kind who wears an enamelled silver belt, but eventually I will make a nice broad belt with dense copper-alloy or silver mounts. I have been cross-referencing Dutch and English small finds with the Franciscan missal. That painter loved to show the belts of the thugs crucifying Jesus.
I'm sure that there were late 14th C wannabees who had arse girdles with pewter fittings. This is not just a shameless plug for our products, it's also a shameless plug for our products. :wink:

Sean M wrote:Ian LaSpina found Portable antiquities scheme ESS-D85B66 which is a latoun throat for a scabbard with an integral staple on the back. He likes to run a short strap around his plaque belt and through the staple. gaukler has handled something similar. But Ian is aiming for a much more respectable gentleman than I am (=whisper= although I hear he had to pawn his silver belt and wear a brass one).
That's a fine example. There are also some surviving English effigies that show a similar thing. Unfortunately, the effigies are frequently damaged, and seldom photographed at the angle to show the important detail.

Mac
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Re: Carol van Driel-MurrayArticle on Scabbards from Leiden

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Sean M wrote: I noticed something else in BNF Français 343 which makes me ask whether the artists are swindling us:

Image

Here, I was looking at the dagger handle pointing down without it falling out of its scabbard.
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Re: Carol van Driel-MurrayArticle on Scabbards from Leiden

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It's not uncommon to see short daggers shown hanging more or less horizontally. I suppose they must be rather tight in their sheaths. Sir Walter here is a good example.

Image

I don't think the artists are messing up, because they show long daggers hanging point down. This makes sense, if you imagine that the handles probably weigh about the same, regardless of the blade length.

I feel compelled to point out (even though it argues against what I was saying earlier) that Sir Walter seems to have a separate sword belt, and does not rely on his arse girdle to support his sword. You can see a short length of belt and its buckle sticking out below the sword cross, and the long length wound spirally down the scabard.

Mac
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Re: Carol van Driel-MurrayArticle on Scabbards from Leiden

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Galileo wrote:Here, I was looking at the dagger handle pointing down without it falling out of its scabbard.
Cool isn't it! And it was so common in art of that period that it was probably a real thing. If you copy the scabbard for a rondel dagger in Knives and Scabbards, but fit the 'cup' enclosing the rondel while it is wet and let it dry on the dagger, your dagger will stay in its scabbard during wrestling and close play, but still pop out when you put your hand on it. Bob Charrette has a sheath like that, and it works much better than the ones he wore before.

Once you know to look for it, you can see the 'cup' enclosing the rondel in art.

The vertical daggers in that period often have a purse to stabilize them. The late 14th century consensus seems to have been that a knight's dagger should have about a 6" to 8" blade, probably because if it comes to daggers speed is the important thing. There is an old quote about the KBar which comes to mind ...
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Re: Carol van Driel-MurrayArticle on Scabbards from Leiden

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Gerhard von Liebau wrote:I just realized the decorations on the scabbard you just linked from Maciej's gallery is based on one of the Leiden scabbards drawn in the article. Cool. :)

-Gerhard
Yes, I think that many people who can't read Dutch have Van Driel-Murray's two articles on medieval scabbards, and just use the pictures. There is also the German book on Schleswig, but EUR 39 might be a bit much if you just want the seven pages on sword scabbards. Please spread the translation to anyone you know who is interested in scabbards circa 1300!
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Re: Carol van Driel-MurrayArticle on Scabbards from Leiden

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Mac wrote:I feel compelled to point out (even though it argues against what I was saying earlier) that Sir Walter seems to have a separate sword belt, and does not rely on his arse girdle to support his sword. You can see a short length of belt and its buckle sticking out below the sword cross, and the long length wound spirally down the scabard.

Mac
No, 90-95% of the sculptures and manuscript illuminations, and sculptures from 1360s-1370s Italy I have looked at show just one belt at the hip. So I will probably try it first ... I don't think I could make a brass throat with a staple like the English find though :( And I have no idea who just makes wood-core scabbards in Europe right now, and how much trouble it would be for them to make a scabbard without the sword to compare.

I am thinking of a typology of late 14th century sword suspensions, but I want do do more making and less sitting in front of a computer classifying images.

I just had another look at the guy with stars on his red cote in BNF Latin 757 fol. 325r, and how his swords is placed as he sleeps. Whatever kind of hidden fastening, that is a flexible one!
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Re: Carol van Driel-MurrayArticle on Scabbards from Leiden

Post by Sean M »

Roeli Pilami has a photo of the 1340s sleeping guards from the Musée de l'Oeuvre Notre-Dame, Strassbourg.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... 508791796/

The scabbard of his falchion has a vertically-mounted buckle on the back. Ian LaSpina found this too, but he did not cite it in any way that makes it easy to find :(
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Re: Carol van Driel-MurrayArticle on Scabbards from Leiden

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Sean M wrote: I just had another look at the guy with stars on his red cote in BNF Latin 757 fol. 325r, and how his swords is placed as he sleeps. Whatever kind of hidden fastening, that is a flexible one!
I suspect that the most common ways to attach a scabbard at one point is with a short length of strap, cord, or chain, like we see more clearly on daggers. Such an attachment will let the sword flop around quite a bit, and while that might be it's own trouble, it would be easy to achieve the look of that sleeping guard.
Sean M wrote:Roeli Pilami has a photo of the 1340s sleeping guards from the Musée de l'Oeuvre Notre-Dame, Strassbourg.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... 508791796/

The scabbard of his falchion has a vertically-mounted buckle on the back. Ian LaSpina found this too, but he did not cite it in any way that makes it easy to find :(
I've always presumed that this guy must have a leather tab on his belt to which this buckle attaches. Looking again today at the pic, I see that he appears to be wearing a baldric rather than a belt.... same attachment, either way, or course.

Mac
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Re: Carol van Driel-MurrayArticle on Scabbards from Leiden

Post by Sean M »

One of my favourite manuscripts shows this:

Image

So one hidden suspension (which I still think is by far the most common solution between 1360 and 1400), and one with two short angled straps attached to the hipbelt, like some dagger suspensions.
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