Early Pairs of Plates

[Sean M]

Do we have any good threads on them? An interesting picture appeared on Manuscript Miniatures:



There are not many early sculptures and many of them are hard to photograph.

Are there any good books or articles on early pairs of plates since Thordemann? There are some recent finds such as the armour from Hirschstein and Kussnach.

[Mac]

It's great to see one in art that so closely resembles the Wisby examples!

Mac

[Sean M]

I agree! Maybe someone has a page with other art like the black St. Maurice from Germany.

Due to their flat chests, the Wisby armours would have been old-fashioned by 1330, but its hard to say how much older they were.

Last year I checked the story about German armour at the battle of Benevento in 1266. It turns out that the original sources say that the Germans wore "double hauberks" or were "armoured with a double covering" so could only be defeated by stabbing under the arms, but they do not say anything about any kind of plate armour. A simple explanation would be that they were wearing mail corsets over their hauberks, or perhaps they wore double mail which was strong in the chest and shoulders and weaker and more flexible at the armpits.

[Len Parker]

Not that early, but still interesting: https://manuscriptminiatures.com/4170/7886 and https://vk.com/photo-11029306_457275135

[Sean M]

Great catch! The picture on Terra Teutonica 1360-1440 (VKontakt) could show the elusive brigandine sleeves. Or it could just be a silk surcote. The pattern of dots is very repetitive but the sleeves have the same pattern as the bodice just closer space which looks like rivets or embroidery to me.



The captain with the mace wears an unusual bascinet too.

The picture from 1350-1340 is earlyish to me, its before 1360 or so when chests got big and round.

[Len Parker]

It might be similar to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ermengol_ ... _of_Urgell If those are plates on the feet I would assume they're plates on the body. I believe the effigy is original and the sarcophagus is restored. I think.

[Ernst]

Pavel's thread on the XIII Century FB page is a good start. Whether the origin lies in the Baltic Wars or the Mongol invasion is debatable, but the geography of the early sources is consistent.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/xiiicentu ... tid=Nif5oz

[Sean M]

Thanks Ernst! For people who don't use Facebook I have uploaded those images to my static site.

M.V. Gorelik, who was one of the greatest experts in Mongol and Asian arms and armours in general, claims in his study on early mongolian armour [Ранний монгольский доспех (IX – первая половина XIV в.) // Археология, этнография и антропология Монголии. Новосибирск: Наука, 1987.] that the concept of coat of plates was introduced in the West after the Mongol Invasion of Central Europe led by Subutai (1241-42). To back this up he cites the letter written by the Emperor Friedrich Hohenstaufen that talks about Mongolian "armour with sewn plates of iron" (as in Mongol armours the plates could be both sewn and/or riveted). Gorelik also shows riveted plates found in the area of lake Bajkal and Minusinsk depression dated IX - XI Century (no. 17 and no. 19 in the plate below). He also cites H. Russell Robinson that in his "Oriental Armour" book [Dover Publications, 2002] writes that this type of armour originated in China as a ceremonial military garment in the VIII Century. Gorelik says that althought it was an early invention, its utilization en masse only came with the Mongols during XIII Century. Its original Mongol name was Khatangu Deghel (literally meaning: "coat as hard as steel")

(Link to https://swordmaster.org/uploads/gorelik9-13/03.png which no longer has the image)

Gerhard von Liebau had a thread Eastern Influences on HMA Armament

I added Adam du Petit-Point to Written Sources for Gambesons / Aketons / Pourpoints

[Sean M]

Just thinking out loud about types of plate armour for the body in texts before 1330.

There is scale and lamellar armour:

• Gerald of Wales on the Norse attack on Dublin in 1171
• Adam du Petit-Point's circumsquamata 'scaly-all-around' (before 1181)

There are cuiries which are some kind of hardened leather defense for the chest. They may appear show up in the Maciejowski Bible and in some English effigies which Pavel A. did not include. Cuirie is the root of cuirass and chorassina so there is an etymological connection from these to later plate and brigandine armour.

• Wace, Benoit, and Radulfus Niger in the 1100s
• Effects of Odo of Burgundy 1266

There are references to an iron plate, singular, on the chest,

• William the Breton/Guillaume le Breton, Philippidos Book III (before 1225)
• Robert Bruce's regulation for the militia of Scotland, 1318

There are the mysterious thoraces in Latin texts which are some kind of body armour which could not be called a lorica / hauberk.

There are lameriae "lamers" in Italian texts. du Cange cites "Stat. datiar. Riper." whatever that is.

None of these seems exactly like what we see in Pavel A's collection of art from Central Europe which is hard plates riveted inside a cloth or leather garment. Are these ancestors of later pairs of plates, or just different lines of experiments in different regions? I hope archaeologists find something one day.

Len's effigy of Ermengol X and the rule of the armourers of Paris from 1296 seem to show something more like the art from eastern Germany and the pairs of plates from Wisby (ie. plates riveted inside leather or several layers of sturdy fabric).

Edit: Blair does not bother to give a first use for "pair of plates" in England. A handy early use is giuseppi-accounts-of-bogo-de-clare from 1284-1286. This arrogant clerk (well, arrogant person who held benefices and had people to beat you to death if you asked nosy questions) bought two pairs of plates from Bono the Merchant for 23 s. 4d., one pair of plates for 40 s., one sword 6 s. 1 d., one pair of gloves of plates 3 s. 6 d., one iron hat placed between two fulcitr' hats for 12 s. 6 d.

Item de Bono Mercatore pro .ii. paribus platearum emptis ad opus eiusdem .xxiij. s'. iiij. d'. Item pro vno pare platearum empto ad opus eiusdem .xl. s'. Item pro vno gladio empto ad opus eiusdem .vj. s'. .j. d'. ... Item pro vno pare Cirotecarum de plateis facto ad opus eiusdem .iij. s'. vj. d'. Item pro vno Capello ferri posito inter duos capellos fulcitr' ad opus eiusdem empto .xii. s'. vj. d'.

Lexis project, DMLBS, and Randal Storey's PhD thesis are not helpful either (Storey has laws with pairs of plates from after 1300). I was checking Bogo de Clare to add to my page of notes on medieval beds.

I think the aketons of plates, jacks of plates, and plate-coats show up in the 14th-16th centuries.

[Ernst]

Here's a previous thread with two sources from the 1280s showing shoulder hinges. The likeliest explanation for me is a side-opening pair of plates.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=185968

[Ernst]

There are cuiries which are some kind of hardened leather defense for the chest. They may appear show up in the Maciejowski Bible and in some English effigies which Pavel A. did not include. Cuirie is the root of cuirass and chorassina so there is an etymological connection from these to later plate and brigandine armour.

There are a few descriptions of cuiries which emphasize their iron reinforcement.

Calendar of Close Rolls, Henry III: Volume 9, 1254-1256
"unum quiredum de platis ferreis quod Willelmus Cramblod', habet"

Even as early as the 1230s, in the Chanson Gaydon, we find this
"6402 Cuirie ot bonne, ferrée largement."

[Sean M]

There are a few descriptions of cuiries which emphasize their iron reinforcement.

Calendar of Close Rolls, Henry III: Volume 9, 1254-1256
"unum quiredum de platis ferreis quod Willelmus Cramblod', habet"

Even as early as the 1230s, in the Chanson Gaydon, we find this
"6402 Cuirie ot bonne, ferrée largement."

Humh, remind me to make sure I get that line when I write "Linen Armour in the Frankish Countries part 2: 1200-1280"

I could probably borrow that volume of the Calendar of Close Rolls, its online behind a paywall https://www.british-history.ac.uk/cal-c ... /hen3/vol9 and without a paywall as https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.35112103127165 This entry is about a ship full of German merchants which was wrecked off the coast of Lincolnshire who want their chattels back while the locals say "our wreck, our salvage."

Edit: this one is a bit of a story.

On a certain ship perished in the region of Lindsey - The king sends greetings to the viscount of Lincoln (Margaret de Quincy?). Because, on the claim of Henry Abel and his associates, merchants of Germany, we accept that from his ship, which was recently made wreck and perished in the region of Lindsey, a certain master of this said ship named Jacob escaped alive, whence according to the custom of England chattels which had been found in the said ship are not our 'wreck'; and we accept by inquisition which we had carried out there that in the same ship the following goods had been found, namely, 12 timbers scurellorum of which the said Jacob had ten timbers and Radulphus son of Pagani of Luden' (County Louth in Ireland?) two timbers; item one hauberk and two iron hose which Philip de Wyvelesby, mayor of Grimsby, had; item one iron hat, one iron chain and one anchor which Simon de Hedon' had; item one cuirie of iron plates which William Cramblod' has; ...

That is a lot of salvage, interesting that everyone but Master Jacob perished

[Ernst]

Perhaps of more interest is the fact that the cargo belonged to German merchants. The common narrative being that pairs of plates originated in German speaking regions, perhaps influenced or spurred on by the Mongol invasions. This may point out that the language of 'par de platis' may not have been adopted yet, so the 'cuiries with lots of iron' was the best name they had at such an early date.

[Sean M]

Perhaps of more interest is the fact that the cargo belonged to German merchants. The common narrative being that pairs of plates originated in German speaking regions, perhaps influenced or spurred on by the Mongol invasions. This may point out that the language of 'par de platis' may not have been adopted yet, so the 'cuiries with lots of iron' was the best name they had at such an early date.

Good idea, lets see if I can fit this passage in "Linen Armour Part II: 1204-1280"

I cannot clarify the scurellus or scurellum timbers with Bertil Sandahl, Middle English Sea Terms. Three volumes (Uppsala: n.p., 1951, 1958, 1982) or the Logeion website https://logeion.uchicago.edu/scurellum Are they squirrel timbers?

[Ernst]

I had hastily posted a response this morning, but deleted it, to give the matter more thought.
"Tymbria scurellorum" may truly be related to squirrel fur. Tymbria/timbria appears in later records as a bundle of 40 or 50 pelts, so may have nothing to do with wood or timber

https://www.sizes.com/units/timber.htm

[Sean M]

Humh, bales of squirrel firs are the kind of thing that merchants from Hamburg or the Baltic might export to England https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/middle-eng ... y/MED45859# And there are good Latin terms for beams like "ligna" and "materia"