The Armour Archive

First, let me state that I am familiar with the 'moth-antennae' klap form from the Bohemian atarpiece, and this is not in reference to it.

I recently noticed a bascinet illustration which seems to show a side-hinged plate visor frame with a conical basket replacing the houndskull nose and occularia. This was found in Dr. Sydney Anglo's "The Martail Arts of Renaissance Europe" on p. 156, and is taken from illustrations of pole-hammer sequences from Fiore de' Liberi da Primariaccoo's 'Flos duellatorum', c. 1410, now in the Getty Museum, MS Ludwig XV,13.

As Fiore also illustrates bascinets with solid houndskulls as well as bascinets cum visor, it seems likely to me that a grill-type visor for bascinet did exist for tournament or training use. Those with a copy of Dr. Anglo's text are free to comment. Those of you without access to this fine book may request a scan, since my net access is via web-tv, and does not provide storage facilities to be used. I will gladly forward a scan to those interested.

I`d like to see that. send to muttman123@mediaone.net
Thanks

I recall an older thread around here somewhere about period bar-grills on helms. I've got a copy of that book and mentioned the pictures you're referencing though I don't recall if any conclusion was made about the authenticity of the illustation. I think someone mentioned it may have been merely a stylistic thing where the artist was skimping on how much drawing he had to do so merely suggested the visor by sketching in what appears to be a grill....

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Long live the Prince and Princess of Cynagua!

Please forward me a copy. daniel@fenwick.sparks.nv.us

Thanks.

Dan

If you forward me a copy of the illustration, I will post it.

finkas@ix.netcom.com

I've got the book and agree with you. It does look like a pointed grill mounted onto a side pivoting frame. The artist has in plate #111 dipicted both the "grill" in question and then a traditional visor right below. If it was a fast cheat why on one and not on the other? Also the amount of lines to draw the "grill" outnumber the number to draw the trad. visor.

Very interesting!

Thanks for the e-mail attachment of the aforementioned "fiore" scans. I have posted some details from those scans (cropped & edited for bandwidth frugality).

<img src=http://finkas.home.netcom.com/ArmourArchive/BarredBascVisors.jpg>

In my opinion, the drawings provide plausible evidence for a bar-grilled pigface visor. I do not get the sense that the artist is trying to portray something else such as a texture or breath holes.

Very interesting. I hope we see some brave souls start to experiment with this idea---it could really catch on.

[This message has been edited by Tim Finkas (edited 01-16-2002).]

Thats what it looks like to me too. I think we have documentation for bargrills on bascinets,at least. If there is documenation of these pointed grills, is it a far leap from there for the standard SCA style bascinet grills?
John

Hi Guys,

Look - not to be a downer, but those visors can be reasonably interpreted in a number of different ways.

Yo my eye, they closely resemble the "spagetti strainer" visor commonly found on great bascinets, of which there are a number of surviving examples. The ones from this time surviving have rounded skulls and visors, but a German example I am particularly thinking of would look very much like a bargrill if you tried to do a pen and ink sketch of it with a quill - that is what the guy was using - a dip pen, not a modern ballpoint.

I do not see how you could logicaly securly attatch a pointy bargrill to a sheet visor securly, as is shown here. Any solid strike on it would want to tear the assembly apart. Keep in mind that arc-welders did not exist. Since there are example concurent with this era of spaghetti strainer visored bascinets, and there are none of what is clearly a bargrill, I would say you need more conclusive evidence than this.

I'm trying to look at this from a professional viewpoint as a historian. A lot of you fellows want bargrills as used in the SCA to be "period", and this colours your judgement. If they found a bargrill such as this, then I would take it as solid evidence, or even a better depiction of one, as more evidence to their existance - facts are facts.

Since this picture can be reasonably interpreted in more than one way, this does not represent any conclusive proof from a scholarly viewpoint.

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Bob R.

As an illustrator who has regularly drawn with an ink pen (and one crazy enough to have done a fair bit of "pointalist" shading with a pen),

I gotta ask -- how big is the original image??

It is my considered and experience based impression that, as Chef suggests,
the image is far more likely (like a good 95 - 98 percent certain) that of an ink pen drawing of standard holes rather than a grill.

Putting aside for the moment the pen technology of the time, even drawing with a modern style reservoir fed pen with a round point you will often get "tails" if you're not perfectly careful in drawing your dots.

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Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

The great bascinet with pierced visor is the most convincing explanation, but would be more so if it looked like black holes in a white grid rather than white holes in a black grid. If it is a barred visor, it might something like a medieval fencing helm.

These pictures don't depict combat, they show training. Instead of "enemy" or "opponent", Fiore uses words like "player" and "companion". Perhaps these were visors that were not considered protective or sturdy enough for all out fighting, but useful for training. If they were only used in this context, or were something that Fiore designed and commissioned for his own use, you wouldn't be seeing it anywhere else.


Iain

Well, I guess I'll stress some semantics in my previous post. Note I used the word "plausible" as opposed to "compelling", "conclusive", or even "incontravertable".


[This message has been edited by Tim Finkas (edited 01-16-2002).]

I have to agree with Tom. I also would say plausible, or even possible. I do have to say though that to My eye it looks like conical bargrills are represented. Again, I would say that given possible evidence of cone shaped bargrills, it would not be a huge leap from there for grills aproximating the styles used on bascinets in the SCA. That doesn`t mean I am looking for justification for my grill, and I still intend on upgrading my helmet with a pigface when I am able to afford it.
John

I'm sorry,
again, based on my experience as an illustrator working with similar pens, I gotta say --

It's NOT AT ALL plausible.

It is only possible in the sence that it is possible that a "perfect" jury would convict an innocent man -- ie: "beyond a reasonable doubt" there exist unreasonable ones.

In this picture, it is "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the visor is guilty of NOT being a grill.

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Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Nobody can say with any certainty exactly what the drawing is supposed to represent. We don't know, and we are never going to know.
-V

In this picture, it is "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the visor is guilty of NOT being a grill.

I understand that you have experience drawing with the same types of materials as the pics above were done with, but I don`t see how you can make the above statement, anymore than I could unequivicably say they are bargrills. The visors pictured look a hell of a lot like they are meant to represent some cage/grill like contraption to Me.
Tom, do you have any pictures in the same book representing an actual/plate visor so we can compare? That might help. Again, in my opinion, for what thats worth, they look very much like they could be a bargrill type thing.
John

Conjecture warning

http://www.barbute.com/ is a web site that you can go to if you want to find info on the work that Bob Charron is doing on the Fiore manual. On that front page is a pic from one of the Fiore manuals showing the "guard of the bastard cross".

IF the same artist did the bastard cross and above mentioned drawings, then I would be led to believe that the artist could indeed do the breath holes. As far as I have been able to tell from the times that I have done Bobb's symposium, the figures are generally the same size.

That being said, I believe that the answer lies in a Bill and Ted-esque time machine.

Fritz

Norman,

You are a talented guy, but I have to imagine your experience with a quill pen can't compare to a medieval artist who has never known a ball point, felt tip or tech pen.

As muttman says, if you look at more of the illustrations in the manual, you may decide that the artist is more capable than you have presumed. Not all the visors are depicted like the barred ones---there are "solid" ones illustrated as well.

Hi All,

A "spagetti strainer" visor is NOT a normal visor for a houndskull visored great bascinet - I think you misunderstand what I am talking about. Two examples of a very early armet, and a great bascinet with this style of visor reside in the collection of the MET.

I am intimately familiar with the Fiori drawings illustrated, I have a photocopy of the Getty manuscript. You credit the artist with far too much tallent Tim. Compared to average manuscript illuminators, this fellow would have been thrown out of the shop.

Frankly, I don't think it is technicaly possible to create the visor your eyes see when looking at this picture with the technology of the early 15th century and have it function.

If you want to prove that this is possible, then you need to find an armourer to make a speculative reconstruction using the techniques and tools available to the early 15th century armourer. It also needs to be consistant with other extant armour from this era. That is to say, the visor frame from either wrought iron or mid-carbon steel, of a thickness consistant with other houndskull visors, and the grillwork to be made up of wrought iron (as at least you can forge weld it) square bar stock, and then somehow mate the two seperate items together.

I say it can't be done with historic technique and material - prove me wrong. Even if you manage this feat, the item would rip apart under the first solid blow. Another good reason for the spaghetti strainer theory. Also, none of the later specialized bar grills extant match this form of construction of what you take this picture to be an example of.

In contrast a spaghetti strainer visor (one in this shape, made out of sheet, and entirely covered with largish round or rectangular breaths over its entire surface) is quite easy to manufacture. Better yet, there are extant examples that meet this description.

I see here a classic example of a picture that can be interpreted in a variety of ways being taken as conclusive proof of an SCA-isim being "period". This backward "documentation", and leaping to conclusions without any real proof is what gets SCA scholarship laughed at by real scholars. Sorry, but I'm calling it like I see it here.

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Bob R.

Roderick,

Help me here... Did we or did we not see a helm in Coburg Castle that had a Pierce worked "Grill"?

The holes in the "Grill" were about 1 inch square if my noggin' is working right.

What do you remember?

Giles

I agree, Chef.

The idea of the visor being constructed out of barstock is not consistent with period manufacturing technology. It might be interesting to see how large/close together one could make the breathe holes (cut into sheet metal) before the structure was too weak to sufficiently protect.

I didn't mean to credit this illustrator with any great artistic skill, save control of the pen (or brush). His line quality seems more of less consistent throughout.

Giles, Do I know you...?

Sorry. I've checked my photographs and can't find the visor you mentioned. Can't remember it myself, but then that's not surprising.

Roderick

Chef,

While I agree to the validity of some of your arguments, I disagree with other points.

First, while it is true that we do not have an example of a barred-visor houndskull bascinet, neither do we have an example of a collander-visor houndskull bascinet. Yes, some later 15th century great bascinets do have the multi-perf'ed collander visors; however, tourney helms seen in the 15th century book by Rene of Anjou clearly show visors made of bars or slats. I note that in Rene's work, these grills are part of a visor.

Second, it seems to me restrictive to insist that such a grill would have to be welded, and that such a constuction would be inherently weak. A number of 16th century tourney helms with twisted square stock bars over the eyes seem to have been durable enough for their intended use. Likewise, their exist other forms of construction: I am thinking specifically of a German 'club-tourney' helm from circa 1500 where round bars are passed horizontally through flat vertical plates. Likewise, a grill of riveted slats could have been constructed. It merely seems to me that other depictions from the same manuscript and on the same folio show the artist's ability to render images of more traditional visors in accurate form. Likewise, we have lost more knowledge of the variety of armor in use than we have discovered.

I agree whole-heartedly that this does not provide proof of SCA style bar-grills on bascinets. Quite contrarily, I believe that it shows what a bar-grill may have looked like in this application (houndskull form). I am quite interested in hearing the pros and cons of how such a visor may have been constucted, but I am reasonably assured after noticing these illustrations that some type of grill work is intended.

I have asked Tim to post some of the other examples to illustrate this point. (I generally do not like posting images scanned from books, both due to possible conflict of copyright, and because the author deserves to have his research and published work protected. However, I believe this to be a good case for 'private use and study', even if in a public forum.)

Chef-

I thought I remembered seeing some bar visors in my research books. I'll list the illustrations that fall into the catagory (loosly) of helms that have faces protected by bar stock visors. I'm leaving out the pierce work visors as they are of a completely different construction method. And look a hell of a lot better!

"A Record of European Arms and Armour" by Laking -

Vol. 2, pg. 161, fig. 501 - Great helm. Cetrally mounted visor of square bar stock. Three vertical bars pierced with about 20 horizontal bars. Horizontal bars alternate thick then thin, all rivet onto a piece of plate that frames the facial opening. Interesting note on this one, the visor is held in place with a chain going around the back of the neck. German early 16th century.

Vol. 2, pg. 161, fig. 502 - Oh, this one is ugly. Evenly spaced square bar stock horizontals again passing through the verticals. All bar ends look to rivet onto the edge of the facial opening. Spaces between bars is about 1 1/4" (at a guess) square. This helm is built of both metal and leather.

Vol. 6, pg. 140, fig. 72 - Splinted Suit circa 1580. The burgonet on this suit has three bars originating at the brow of the bill and conecting at the chin.

Vol. 6, pg. 159, fig.76 - Maximillian Suit 1535. The burgonet on this suit has a grill work of three horizontal and five vertical bars. Attachment methods are up for grabs as the photo is not clear enough to know for sure.

"Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight" Edge and Paddock. - Pg. 173 This is the same helm as fig. 502 from the Laking book mentioned above. (shudder)

"European Helmets, 1450-1650 Treasures from the Reserve Collection, The Metropolitan Museum of Art" - pg. 40, fig, 63 - Closed Burgonet Dutch 1620-30. Three vertical bars of round stock meeting a the chin.

"A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armour in All Countries and in All Times" Stone ( I think he was listening to himself in "stadium voice" while picking that title - in all time.time.time...)
Pg. 20, fig. 26 #10 - Pisan 17th cent. This armet is referenced in other books for a sport called Giuoco del Ponte. It has about eleven vertical bars riveted onto the frame of a pivoting visor. The bar is at a guess about 3/8ths of an inch and round.

"2,500 Years of European Helmets" Curtis.

Pg. 169 - This "great bascinet" as Curtis call it, has a large facial opening covered by a basket of square stock and twisted wire. It looks to have about five vertical bars pierced with about twelve square horizontal bars and an equal number of horizontal twisted wires. In addition to the square verticals there is woven wire inbetween each of them. It looks almost like an after thought.

Pg. 225 - This close helm, which is quite similar in appearances to the helm in Stone's Glossary, has twelve vertical bars riveted onto the pivoting visor. The ends of the round stock are flatened and riveted.

I've included every example from my limited collection of books regardless of the acamdemic weight. It clearly shows that they could make helms with bared visors. The specific purposes are up to debate. I'd be interested in any other examples that you all might have in your books. Or more examples of barred grills in artwork.

Roderick

Hi Roderick,

You are missing the point entirely. Nobody is arguing that bargrills were never used. The discussion is when they came into use, and under what circumstances.

The earliest bar grills that can be absolutely identified as having existed, and not being a possible artistic fancy are bar grilled great bascinets. These are like the particularly ugly one you mentioned in Laking that is on public display in the MET. The entire helmet is a grille, with curbolli applied over all but the face. This type of helmet is a sub class of the great bascinet, and was very specificaly used in the German mounted club-tourney, whos objective was to smash ones opponents heraldic crest with a padded wooden mace, or occasionaly a rebated sword. More handsome examples exist, and are depicted in Rene of Anjou's book of the tournament. These are very specialised pieces of what is essentialy Medieval sporting gear. There is no evidence of them being used for other purposes. debate is to whether these pictures depict bar grills, and therefore such things existed in 1410.

The other examples you provide are of burgonets, which from mid-16th century appear with bars. Principaly these were used by medium cavalry, mounted pistoleers (the infantry models usually were open faced entirely). Triple bar ECW 'pots' or lobstertails are very well known. These are not the same item as SCA bar grills, they have more akin with nasals.

Find me an example of one of these modified great bascinets (the only positive confirmed type of Medieval helmet using a bargrill) that is pre 1450, be it in iconography, or an actual extant example. Good luck in your search, people have been trying for years. The only picture you will find is the Trebant altarpiece mentioned, showing the sleeping guards at the resurection of Christ (Bohemian, c 1400). It is hotly debated as to whether this depicts actual equipment, or is an item made to look odd (as was common in Medieval religious artwork) to represent a "foriegner", or a person of ancient origen. Regaedless of which it is, the grill is of a construction that would be extremely flimsy mere it made as pictured.

My point regarding the difficulty of making the particular grill under discussion (the Fiori one in houndskull form) is involving the shape of the grill itself (all extant grills follow the pattern of the tres ugly leather and grillwork helmet - i.e., they are rounded in form). My point is that you cannot make one like that with 15th century tools and materials - they don't have welders to tack the cone together, and to boot it is attached to a solid frame in the form of a normal houndskull visor edge.

My challenge is to produce one using nothing but period tools, and of similar material, in historical thickness (no beefing up either grill, or frame). It is what those in the 'biz' call a 'speculative reconstruction'. The professionals make such things to test theories precisely like this one. My challenge has two parts, first, I don't think it can be made, and second, if it is made with 15th century technique in this form, I think that it will go to pieces with a few blows.

That is how you test such theories folks, make a quality reproduction of the equipment in question, and then subject it to the use it would have seen. If you can't make it using 15th century tools and materials, then it couldn't have existed, if it falls apart in normal use, it argues that in all likelyhood, the reconstruction is based on a bad theory. If you want to "document" something or in reality, make a solid theory, then you make the test.

If you make the item, and it stands up to the test, then the argument that such a thing could be made, and would be useful if made is a successful one. Final proof of it having existed would be 1. finding one, 2. finding a better picture or sculpture of one, or 3. finding a clear reference to one in a document from the time.

I would love to see somebody make such a speculative reconstruction. I am a student of armour - a serious one I hope. If bar grills existed pre 1450, then they did. I have no axe to grind (other than to stress what actually defines 'documentation', and try to clearly state what the scholarly definition of same is), I just want to expand our knowledge of armour . A series of mediocre sketches by a mediocre 'artist' illustrating a fechtbuch does not clear proof make.

I am all for someone making and testing a quality speculative reconstruction of this type of a helmet. If you can do it, and it works, I will say that these pictures possibly represent such a helmet, but we have no extant examples to prove their existance. With a successful test, and these pictures, a scholar in honesty could go no farther. Find me a reference, and I'll then up the ante to 'probably'. This is the way it works.



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Bob R.

Per request: some other examples from the same manuscript, showing the artist's treatment of visors appearing to be solid, as opposed to "bars".

<img src=http://finkas.home.netcom.com/ArmourArchive/Fiore-2.jpg>

[This message has been edited by Tim Finkas (edited 01-17-2002).]

It would have been much simpler to make a line (possibly a thicker one) for the eyeslot, and dots for breath holes, than the way the artist did it.

The faceplate that has the "bars" radiating from a central point is certainly a lot more work than necessary. I think that the faceplate could certainly be made by forge-welding and riveting, and be sturdy enough to take abuse.

Remembering an armor conversation from long ago: "Anything we can think up, they could", and for the most part I agree. DaVinci thought up plenty of things that the technology of the day was deficient for. Some things that they could do long ago, we have had trouble doing until relatively recently (granulation).

People in Afganistan had little trouble copying relatively advanced small arms during the Soviet occupation with little more than hand tools.

Roderick,

Damn Man, Why did you and I go to that Castle if we can't retain the memory for a year........

Hey, I know, ask Patty... I know she will remember.. if it was there at all... Remind her that she and I were looking at it when the rude person SUSHED us.... That she will remember. Or did that really happen? Oh I am so confused....

I really need to stop sniffing duct tape....

Giles

[This message has been edited by Giles of Redheugh (edited 01-17-2002).]

Chef,

I'm sorry if I was less than exact in why I posted those references last night.

I disagree with you. I do think the grill dipected in Fiore's manual could be made by a craftsman of the 1410's. I think it is egotistical of you to say what was and what was not with in thier skill set.

To quote you -

"To prove that your statement that a grill constructed onto a frame of plate surroundinI say it can't be done with historic technique and material - prove me wrong. Even if you manage this feat, the item would rip apart under the first solid blow. Another good reason for the spaghetti strainer theory. Also, none of the later specialized bar grills extant match this form of construction of what you take this picture to be an example of."

Yet several of the examples in my reference books are just that. Round bars riveted to plate frames. If it was so fragile why do they exist? I understand your arguement against using art as a source, but these helms are real and do exist.

As far as the other helms like the lobster pots I listed, I did so just to show how rare grills are. As a educational offering to this list. That's why we're here right?

Don't get me wrong, I think the grill in question is butt ugly and I don't have the skill to make it with period techniques. I would have to cheat on the point with my welder, never having done forge welding.

Roderick

Hi Alcyoneus,

I don't think it arrogant of me to say what could or could not be done, because I have taken the time to study the real thing. Comparing this drawing to extant examples I have seen up close, or have looked at clear pictures of - There are NO extant visors even remotely similar, stop and think - perhaps there is a reason for this? If the entire face was a grill, then I would take a different position, it is the pointy "grill" attatched to a normal visor frame that causes me to doubt the entire contraption.

Do those of you who are arguing so vociferously for this, and are dismissing my "spaghetti strainer" visor theory know what I am talking about? Have you seen one? If you have, you would not be so quick to dismiss the theory. I am unfortunately away from my books till Friday, but I will eventually post a picture, of a helmet from the same era in armour technology, to show you, and how if an artist were to try to depict it, the result would be much like you see here. The type of visor I'm trying to describe to you has no occularum whatsoever, the sights being the multitude of large breaths.

The Afghanies copied someone elses technology, and they had a need for the item in question. I doubt an Italian knight had a need for this item you imagine, and the armourer had nothing to copy.

Roderick,

Once more, every example you put forward is a hundred years or more past the date we are discussing. One example is 40 years past the date in question. No example you have is of a conical grill. The question, and I will put it in bold, since the point seems to be lost here, is not that bar grills existed on specialized helmets, but when such bar grills came into use.

My contention is that the jury is out regarding the picture in question. I went to a great deal of trouble to type out what scholars define as evidence, and this is ignored, precisely because most of you want this visor to be what you imagine it to be. This is a pre existing bias, and it clouds your judgement.

This particular visor is not "round bars attatched to a visor frame", it would be a conical construction of square stock bars, somehow attatched to a frame. There is no visual evidence for the bar stock being bent over to fit the frame and take a rivet, there is no evidence for one final grill forming a base for the construct, and being rivited to the plate. No extant Medieval grill is made of round stock, the only Medieval grills (pre-1500, just to clarify "Medieval") extant are square stock.

If this drawing is a clear as some of you think it is, how is the grill attatched to the frame?

The challenge I have stated is a normal concept in the scholarly world. I am laying out what the rest of the Acedemic world accepts for proof of theories. As you point out, we are here to be eductated. The problem arises when people take exception to what the rest of the acedemic world accepts as a reasonable theory or proof.



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Bob R.

You Guys.......forging bars without welding isn't rocket science. Look at period architecture and you'll see many, many ways to deal with bars both with forge welding and riveting. Everyone speaks with SUCH AUTHORITY yet when I go to your websites there's no BEEF. Get off the damn computer and fire up the forge and make something instead of speculating .

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by chef de chambre:
<B>Hi Alcyoneus,


My contention is that the jury is out regarding the picture in question. I went to a great deal of trouble to type out what scholars define as evidence, and this is ignored, precisely because most of you want</B> this visor to be what you imagine it to be. This is a pre existing bias, and it clouds your judgement.


If this drawing is a clear as some of you think it is, how is the grill attatched to the frame?

</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I don't really care if it existed or not, so it probably isn't clouding my judgement anyway. In the first pictures that Tim posted, it shows (figure on the right) a spot at the right location for an eye, although that doesn't prove anything.

I don't see why it couldn't be rivetted on, later examples were. I only see about 3 buckles, and no points, but I am not claiming they had velcro.

Perhaps I should have the local folks doing a lot of blacksmithing if they are interested.

Ted,

While I understand your sentiment, the fact remains that this board is an academic pursuit of ideas, rather than a physical location. Likewise, Chef's insistence that anything constructed with less than 15th century materials and techniques would be wothless, is flawed. I think much has been learned about mail, for example, by the manufacture and use of thousands of butted mail shirts. Did we learn how riveted mail was made in the twelfth century by making butted mail? NO! But butted mail served as a stepping stone in building our knowledge.

For Bob, the question is, "How early were grill-faced helmets for special tournament use being made?" This is not the question for others. If (and I stress IF) Fiore's depiction represents a grill visor from 1410, my question becomes, "How would such a visor have been made, using later proven examples as models?" I think that someone in the SCA, or a supplier of SCA-style armor is more likely to attempt a reconstruction because of their bias towards barred faces. If one of these manufacturers, craftsmen, or hobbyists made an example, we would have another debate on how closely the work resembled Fiore's depiction, or how closely their technique could have been duplicated in the 15th century.

I believe the most likely reconstruction, based on later examples, would be square bars run through plate discs. The squae bars could be flattened, bent, and riveted to the visor. The fact that such a detail would not be shown in Fiore is not surprising due to the scale of the drawing. How the bars could be brought to a point with forge welding is a difficult question. Perhaps the bars were bent over at the apex of the cone in a series of 'V''s? If this were done, I don't believe the bars could have been passed through plate discs, however. All of this is purely conjectural, of course, but that's why it's interesting to discuss, but not yet attempt to build.

Thanks for the idea!

1. Make a small pointed cone out of metal, this is the tip of the pointed visor, rivet bars to it.

2. Make a disc, with an open hole, rivet bars to it. This works for the rounded visor.

Either of these could be done w/o forge welding. Pretty simple engineering, all in all.