The Armour Archive

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:10 am**

Hi all!

I'm looking for some help here...I'm choosing to emulate a persona that is English, circa 1390. I am trying to emulate as high up the social ladder as I can afford. I want to develop the waspwaisted look (even though I am far from waspwaisted myself!), either with a globose breast or segmented brest (I.E. like Churburg #13 or #14). However, for the correct look, those are supposed to stop at just below the short ribs. Unlike some knights I know, I need more than Virtue to protect my kidneys, thankyouvery much!

I also don't want to go for the hoop faulds....for some reason, I just don't like the look. On my rig currently, my corazinna thng goes down to justabout my hips, and I wear a brig skirt to cover my ass and hips. Would it be possible to wear a brig skirt from kidneys down, covering hips? I see in Mr. price's book, on pg. 334 the sketch of the effigy of Hans Haberkorn, and his nifty skirt......is something like that a german only thing, or are there examples of this over in England?

Again, not looking for a coverd breastplate or coat of plates option.

Thanks!

William

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:44 am**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ringlancer:
either with a globose breast or segmented brest (I.E. like Churburg #13 or #14). However, for the correct look, those are supposed to stop at just below the short ribs. Unlike some knights I know, I need more than Virtue to protect my kidneys, thankyouvery much! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well... I'd start by having you go look up where your kidneys really are. They are not below the bottom of your rib cage. The "kidney belt" many fighters wear actually sits well below their kidneys and doesn't do a thing to protect them. A segmented breast plate, lik the churburg 13, is plenty long enough to cover your kidneys, but you'll need to make the plates wrap around a bit farther than the original.

Dan

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:15 am**

Your are rite the cherburg 13 Orginal does not cover the Kidney's at all. It stops at the the sides of your body. Now I would recomend the leather over plate Wasp waist armor. It would cover the front to back just fine. Also the Cherborg 13 I think was A rare example. Where the Wasp waist leather over plate was A lot more comon. Espeaicaly in England. I will also say I think Brian Price has one for sale for around 250.00. He may have sold it by know but you could ask him.

Oh ya I specialize in the cherborg 13 my self. I am curently building my last and final one. for Kidney protection I am building A leather back plate.

From Knoch

nope still cant spell.

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2002 5:54 am**

A fighter in my shire has a segmented breastplate very reminiscent of churburg #13, but he has designed his to be longer down the body and cover the back. It looks great and protects well. I am thinking of making one for myself too.

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:56 am**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ringlancer:
I want to develop the waspwaisted look (even though I am far from waspwaisted myself!), either with a globose breast or segmented brest (I.E. like Churburg #13 or #14). However, for the correct look, those are supposed to stop at just below the short ribs. Unlike some knights I know, I need more than Virtue to protect my kidneys, thankyouvery much!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello William,

First, the Chruburg #13 would be atypical for almost anyone; it was a pretty unusual piece of armor, at least to judge by the iconography, but especially for an Englishman.

I would go with the Chruburg #14 under a carefully-tailored heraldic jupon. For kidney protection, wear plates on a belt *under* your pourpoint. Remember that the breastplate should only extend down about to your short ribs; please don't let it go down to your hips!

And, by the way, William, I caught the crack about armoring yourself with your virtue! LOL! All I can say is that it has worked so far!

Get rid of the brig skirt, however; it doesn't go with everything else you're wearing.

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:14 pm**

glad you caught that Hugh!

Would a chain skirt be acceptable?

I know that I can't really do 1390 right unless I have a riveted chain haubergeon....which I can't afford.

Is it better to do a butted mail haubergeon (giving me extra weight) or to forgo mail until I can afford the good stuff?

Ok so let me get my layers down....

1. undershirt
2. kidney belt
3. pourpoint (clarification: non padded extremely snug under gament, sleeveless used to point my legs on)
3A. slightly padded coat (aketon? these terms are confusing!) and haubergeon, or chain skirt if I cheat.
4. Churburg #14, stopping just below my short ribs, and just over my belly (about an inch or two over my belly button)
5. snazzy jupon, tight fitting, that i coax my loveley wife into making for me. To get the snug, wasp waist fit, should this lace up the back?
6. gold chain, white and gold plaque belt...oh, wait...I've got to wait a bit for that last part.....

How does that sound, Hugh?

William

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:50 pm**

I used that now-famous wisecrack on a newbie who was helping me arm- his mouth hung open.
-V

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:37 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ringlancer:

glad you caught that Hugh![/b[<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL! Hey, I may not be very bright, but I'm bright enough to know when my words are being taken in vain...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Would a chain skirt be acceptable?

I know that I can't really do 1390 right unless I have a riveted chain haubergeon....which I can't afford.

Is it better to do a butted mail haubergeon (giving me extra weight) or to forgo mail until I can afford the good stuff?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, it's "mail", not chain; "chainmail" is a term invented by Victorian Antiquarians because they thought there were different kinds of mail. "Mail" is derived from the Latin word "mascle" or mesh.

Second, a mail skirt is not only acceptable, it's documentable (although not this early, sorry). In the "How A Man Shall Be Armed" you can see a mail skirt. I don't know how early they started doing things this way, but it only makes sense to do it when you have white harnesses, which they had by the 1390s. Be aware, however, that it might be slightly to early. Still if only all SCAdian harnesses were off by only 10-15 years...

Butted mail, however, is *not* acceptable. Not at all. You'd *look* more-or-less accurate, but the fact is that butted mail is so heavy that you couldn't *function* correctly, and that's just as bad as looking wrong; worse maybe, since I think a knight is defined more by what he does than by how he looks (although both are important!).

I would forgo the mail until you can get rivited or welded mail. That's what I'm doing.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Ok so let me get my layers down....

1. undershirt
2. kidney belt
3. pourpoint (clarification: non padded extremely snug under gament, sleeveless used to point my legs on)
3A. slightly padded coat (aketon? these terms are confusing!) and haubergeon, or chain skirt if I cheat.
4. Churburg #14, stopping just below my short ribs, and just over my belly (about an inch or two over my belly button)
5. snazzy jupon, tight fitting, that i coax my loveley wife into making for me. To get the snug, wasp waist fit, should this lace up the back?
6. gold chain, white and gold plaque belt...oh, wait...I've got to wait a bit for that last part.....

How does that sound, Hugh?

William<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

3. A pourpoint is a quilted garment that is carefully shaped and fitted, as opposed to an aketon, which is a less-fitted garment worn under mail, etc.

5. It would seem that most jupons were laced up the sides, but that's hard to say for certain.

6. Nice try.

Something else you might try is wearing the lentner harness like the one on my web page; You can wear Churburg #14 over top.

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2002 5:25 pm**

Okay if you want some good examples of 14th centry armor Look to the cherbourg armory. There are many fine peices there. Also some realy nice joupon's and Gambasins. If I was you I would Save up for A decent set of Mail. It shows you had taken that extra step in geting things write. The Joupons almost allways laced up the front. In my kit I use a Coat Hardy that has been reinforced. Then for the Mail I use Aluminum rivetd shirt. I have added a link to a photo of me in armor below. The cherbourg you see will be replaced soon with one that is even more origanal in deisgn.

http://www.skeesick.com/images//Knoch.jpg

It has taken me a long time to put that harnes together. Almost two years know. I will some day replace the helm and aventail some day along with the Cherbourg. I hope this helps.

from Knoch

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2002 5:40 pm**

okay I found the breast plate Brian Price has for sale here is the link.

http://secure2.hostmaster2000.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=chronique&Product_Code=CBC

I hope this works. If not try this one.

http://www.chivalrybookshelf.com/

from knoch

Nope still cant spell

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2002 7:22 pm**

Thanks about Brian's breast plate...just a few things....

I already use something similar

It's too expensive for me right now

It's not what I want

And red isn't my color...green is.

but thanks anyway Knoch!

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2002 7:41 pm**

Thanks for the input, Hugh, I appreciate it.

About the lentner though...I like it, but I'm paying for springsteel arms and spaulders with brass...I want them to be seen!

Thanks!

William

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2002 8:00 pm**

I have been giving some thought to selling my lentner, its never been worn in combat, ive only put it on once or twice.
Its made from a dark green brocaid with a black linnen liner.

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2002 8:46 pm**

I'll bite...sent you an email concearning the lentner.....

William

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2002 9:45 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by knoch:
The Joupons almost allways laced up the front. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm... I think we're having some confusion that goes back to medieval lexicology.

The "jupon" to which William and I are referring is an armorial garment which usually laced up the sides or up the back, but I'm not aware of *any* examples of them which laced up the front. Are you aware of any?

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:31 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ringlancer:
I wear a brig skirt to cover my ass and hips. Would it be possible to wear a brig skirt from kidneys down, covering hips? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It *is* period for a brig skirt to be worn below a globose breast plate. I've seen a few examples of these-but I think they're mostly from Germany.

Mind you, if you wear a fitted surcoat over the whole affair, it will matter little.

I would reconsider wearing a hoop fauld, as these are eminently period, plexible and protective. I'd articulate them on leathers, and put some big-ol washers behind the leather to keep it from pulling through; but that's me.

Good luck!

------------------
All bleeding eventually stops.

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2002 11:49 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Trevor:
It *is* period for a brig skirt to be worn below a globose breast plate. I've seen a few examples of these-but I think they're mostly from Germany.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, they are German. Do you know of any English examples? William is English. There is an Eglish effigy (Ralph de Knevynton, c. 1370) which shows a (presumably) solid breastplate under a textile covering. There are multiple rivet heads shown on the skirt of the body harness which suggest either a hooped fauld or else a brig skirt (i.e., like the velvet-covered breastplate at the Met is *supposed* to have), but we can't tell if the harness has a back; my guess is that it doesn't. There is also an effigy (John de Montacute) which is one of the weirdest of the 14th century (which is saying a lot!) which has an odd breastplate with a pointed lower edge (more German than English, really) that appears to be worn over a skirt of some sort, but the nature isn't clear enough from my picture (I'm using Stothard's Monumental Effigies) to positively identify.

In any case, neither of these examples uses the kind of breastplate William wants, and I don't know of any example from England in which a separate brig skirt was worn.

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Posted: **Wed Feb 20, 2002 11:52 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ringlancer:
Thanks for the input, Hugh, I appreciate it.

About the lentner though...I like it, but I'm paying for springsteel arms and spaulders with brass...I want them to be seen!

Thanks!

William<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who's making the spring vambraces? Is it Tom Justus? He's one of the only people I'd have make armor other than Mac; he made most of my Crecy-period harness.

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

[This message has been edited by SyrRhys (edited 02-20-2002).]

Posted: **Thu Feb 21, 2002 12:19 am**

Gundo from Wise Ogre is making them for me. I'm actually going to be one of his first projects for spring steel. His preferences are for a little bit later than 1390...he likes making flutes

but back when I placed the order (a while ago...he has had some health and work problems) he wa sone of the only people outside of Mac and Tom working in spring steel.

No offence to anyone else on the archive, But I would love to have a mac or a Tom Justus suit. Most of us would. But I just lack the funding. I won't insult them by trying to haggle, because their stuff is worth what they charge.

I've got two kids, a wife that is a stay at home mom (because that's what we value) and I was recently unemployed for 8 months. I had to take a job making 25% less than what I was making. And I am just starting to get my kit at an acceptable level.

I've basically let my other hobbies go...I used to work for Games Workshop, and had had about ten years worth of lead and pewter..almost all gone now, on ebay.

I am lucky that my wife is supportive of me and of my vision of what I want to become. SHe doesn't mind that I need to buy new armour to get me to what I want to be..(it also helps that since I sold some of my older stuff, i really do NEED new armour

But I can't tax it too much.

So I do what I can.

Posted: **Thu Feb 21, 2002 3:00 am**

Syr Rhys, are there any online pic galleries with material that's in Stothard's Monumental Effigies?

------------------
"The Minstrel Boy to the war is gone..."

Posted: **Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:12 am**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Konstantin the Red:
Syr Rhys, are there any online pic galleries with material that's in Stothard's Monumental Effigies?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man, I wish there were! If anyone knows about them, I do hope you'll let *me* know, because I'm working from a pretty bad photocopy of the book in my collection (given to me by the One True God of 14th-century, the sainted Sir Hrothgar of Farley, my personal hero! <grin>).

For those who aren't familiar with this book, Stothard was an antiquarian who went around to a lot of the nicer effigies in England and made detailed and highly realistic drawings of them. There are literally dozens and dozens of effigies portrayed, some with beautifully-detailed drawings of smaller details in addition, and many with side views, too. If you've seen the picture of the Black Prince's effigy in Edge & Paddock with the small detail picture, those are from Stothard.

There were, I think, fewer than 400 copies of this book printed.

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Posted: **Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:14 am**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ringlancer:
Gundo from Wise Ogre is making them for me. I'm actually going to be one of his first projects for spring steel. His preferences are for a little bit later than 1390...he likes making flutes

but back when I placed the order (a while ago...he has had some health and work problems) he wa sone of the only people outside of Mac and Tom working in spring steel.

No offence to anyone else on the archive, But I would love to have a mac or a Tom Justus suit. Most of us would. But I just lack the funding. I won't insult them by trying to haggle, because their stuff is worth what they charge.

I've got two kids, a wife that is a stay at home mom (because that's what we value) and I was recently unemployed for 8 months. I had to take a job making 25% less than what I was making. And I am just starting to get my kit at an acceptable level.

I've basically let my other hobbies go...I used to work for Games Workshop, and had had about ten years worth of lead and pewter..almost all gone now, on ebay.

I am lucky that my wife is supportive of me and of my vision of what I want to become. SHe doesn't mind that I need to buy new armour to get me to what I want to be..(it also helps that since I sold some of my older stuff, i really do NEED new armour

But I can't tax it too much.

So I do what I can.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, at least your priorities are on straight: Family, armor (14th C, naturally!), then everything else... ;-)

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Posted: **Thu Feb 21, 2002 8:08 pm**

Ask and though shalt recive. I did some research for a Joupon and here is what I came up with. Joupon or Gipon A variation of the pourpoint in the second part of the fourteenth century, with padded chest, buttons in front. It was supported with long, close fitting sleeves.(source is found here at this page . http://www.ceu.hu/medstud/manual/SRM/gloss.htm#gipon

Next refrence is found here I could only find this photo in on line in french but scroll about 2/3 of the way down the page and you will see it here
http://www.france.diplomatie.fr/actual/culture/coton.html

Know for an articale I found this is A good soucre also. This one describe's in detail of what A Joupon or Gipon is.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4756/qultmilt.htm#Figure

Like I said all the Juopon that I have known Have been laced down the front. Another simular one would belong to the Black Prince. Althought this is referd to as A gambasin.

from Knoch

Nope still cant spell

Posted: **Thu Feb 21, 2002 8:33 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by knoch:
Ask and though shalt recive. I did some research for a Joupon and here is what I came up with. Joupon or Gipon A variation of the pourpoint in the second part of the fourteenth century, with padded chest, buttons in front. It was supported with long, close fitting sleeves

from Knoch

Nope still cant spell<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, just as I thought, a problem of lexicology. As I said, William and I are using the term to refer to a tight-fitting, sleeveless, armorial garment worn *over* armor in the Transitional period.

The garments to which you refer are more commonly known (and these aren't better labels, just different ones; the lexicology of armor is very confused) as pourpoints, in the case of the Charles de Blois garment (so called because hsen were laced to them with 'points'), and Lentners or Coat Armor in the case of the Charles VI garment.

Actually, I severely dislike the term "coat armor" when used in reference to the Charles VI lentner. The term "coat armor" was used in a specific sense in period; we often see references to "gentlemen of coat armor", meaning they are entitled to bear arms, and I've never seen an armorial lentner (unless one counts the Black Prince's as such, but as it's short sleeved I tend to think it belongs in a separate category). Unfortunately, the term lentner, while having no points of contention such as coat armor does, is supposedly derived from the German word for leather (apparently some of these garments were made of leather in Germany), and, as such is also not a completely satisfying term.

Oh, and gambesons are almost always non-armorial and relatively unfitted. For examples, see the Maciewoski Bible; they're all over the place there. What they were *not* is worn under armor as SCAdians use the term. The unfitted quilted garment worn under armor was called an acketon (derived from the Arabic word 'al-hacqueton' (sp?).

But who wants to get into that... then we'd have to try to understand why SCAdians call the garment worn over armor a surcoat when it was called a gown in period, and the word surcoat was reserved for civilian garments...

LOL! I know, I know, more than anyone on earth wants to know...

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Posted: **Thu Feb 21, 2002 11:49 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SyrRhys:
Yes, they are German. Do you know of any English examples? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope-thus my caveat that they were German examples. And thus the underlying reason for my previous recommendation for a hooped skirt which is squarely English. (Yep, I know it's hard to believe, but there are actually other people in the SCA that know their shit.)

------------------
All bleeding eventually stops.

Posted: **Thu Feb 28, 2002 12:12 am**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by knoch:
.
Next refrence is found here I could only find this photo in on line in french but scroll about 2/3 of the way down the page and you will see it here
http://www.france.diplomatie.fr/actual/culture/coton.html

from Knoch

Nope still cant spell[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Pourpoint portÃ© par Charles VI, (1368-1422), lampas de soie rouge, matiÃ¨re de rembourrage en coton, MusÃ©e des Beaux-Arts de Chartres, crÃ©dit photographique crÃ©dit Karin Maucotel."

I wasn't at all sure about posting that rather nice little pic from that page, but this is what that caption says:

"Pourpoint worn by Charles VI (1368-1422), red silk damask, [the] stuffing material cotton, Chartres Museum of Fine Arts, photo credit Karin Maucotel."

------------------
"The Minstrel Boy to the war is gone..."

The Armour Archive

14thC. wasp waisted look, but with kidney protection?

14thC. wasp waisted look, but with kidney protection?