The Armour Archive

InsaneIrish wrote:BUT, it CAN be done and done well, to achieve a very realistic look on the field.

I didn't say it could not I only said you have to make comprimises. Also realistic is a matter of perspective, something like Waldryk's suit gives the idea of a German 3/4 harness it is no where near realistic.

James B. wrote:

InsaneIrish wrote:BUT, it CAN be done and done well, to achieve a very realistic look on the field.

I didn't say it could not I only said you have to make comprimises. Also realistic is a matter of perspective, something like Waldryk's suit gives the idea of a German 3/4 harness it is no where near realistic.

What is not realistic about Waldryk's harness? Granted it is not fluted like most you see in the wood cuts, and I havn't seen documentation on the spaulders he has on it, but other than that what do you find "not realistic"?

Well it has many shape flaws that are subtle like the lack of roundness to the breastplate area. The waist of armor should be at the true waist, you know around the belly button, not at the hips like we wear jeans today. Also the tassets and the spaulder plates are too large to save time on articulation.

Like I said it gives you the feel of a 3/4 harness but is not the same. It's like painting a red s on a blue shirt, you understand it is suppose to be a superman consume but it does not look like the comic book costume.

perhaps you are right, maybe waldryk's harness was not the best example. Try these:
http://www.varmouries.com/lan_02.html

http://www.varmouries.com/lan_01.html

http://www.varmouries.com/cuir_01.html

Yeah that is more like it. Irish I think we are on the same page.

InsaneIrish - The first pic is good for around 1545, although the splints he is wearing are earlier. The second pic is good for around 1555 or there abouts, the problem is that I have not seen or read any evidence that the Landsknecht wore B&W armour. I think B&W was more popular with the Swiss Reislaufer. The third pic is of armour from the early 17th century and would not, I think, have been worn by a Landsknecht soldier. These suits were worn by calvery units. If you need armour that was worn by the landsknechts and protects pretty well then this pic from about 1550 would work.

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/renaissance-woodcuts/wood02

He is wearing a burgonet that integrates on a turning ring to a plate gorget. Add a falling buff to this and it would make a good SCA helmet and be period too. He doesn't have armour on his left arm, but you could alway copy the armour on the right to make a matched set. The gauntlet does not cover the whole hand so it will need to be replaced. You could use a period style mitten gauntlet or finger gauntlet (if you could make it safe). The cool thing about this armour is the leg armour. The long tassets end with polynes that have been made to look like the slashed knees of hosen. This gives you the knee protection you need without having to rely on hidden protection. No greaves or sabbatons, but you could wear period style boots to protect your shins and feet. The Landsknecht light demi-lancers wore boots that would work well.

Not a perfect representation, but everything would fit right in for that historical period. Hope this helps,

Jason Grimes wrote: No greaves or sabbatons, but you could wear period style boots to protect your shins and feet. The Landsknecht light demi-lancers wore boots that would work well.

vawy intewesting..... do you have any examples of such boots?

Yep, here is one, although it is from about 15 to 20 years earlier...

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/renaissance-woodcuts/woodcut

It is a little hard to see but they are just like the 15th century boot except the broad "cow mouth" toes.

Here is another one from 1544...

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/renaissance-woodcuts/beham1

Veltin,

I appreciate your help on this very much so. Footwear always being something of an issue.

To clarify exactly what I'm seeing here. In the second picture, a knee high boot of what appears to be not terribly stiff leather, having a 4-5 inch cuff rolled over, presumably held up by a garter(?). The toe is not quite round but not quite square.

In the first picture similar boot, looks like the cuff is shorter, and may be lined and slashed (lining)? Having the characteristic wide toe.

It's hard to tell from the first picture, but in the second, no puff or slash really.... cant see in the first because of the armor... would these boots be worn with slashed hosen?

Karl Helweg wrote: You do very nice peircing and rolling.

For the record....

I cheated like mad.

Particularly on the first one. The lower edge of the neck lames are not rolled, but rather have a 1/8th inch bar welded on the very edge, wled ground off and roped from there. Same for the roping around the eyes. I did this mostly to get it uniform. Around the eyes it's 12 gauge steel, and theres no way I was going to try and roll metal that thick that tight. I did it on the bottom for uniformities sake.

Both burgonets lack a true rolled edge on the brim, that's 1/4 inch bar welded to the edge. On the first one the roping is file cut, second has no roping there.

I did actualy roll the bottom edge on the second one and of course rope it.

mattmaus wrote:Veltin,

I appreciate your help on this very much so. Footwear always being something of an issue.

To clarify exactly what I'm seeing here. In the second picture, a knee high boot of what appears to be not terribly stiff leather, having a 4-5 inch cuff rolled over, presumably held up by a garter(?). The toe is not quite round but not quite square.

In the first picture similar boot, looks like the cuff is shorter, and may be lined and slashed (lining)? Having the characteristic wide toe.

It's hard to tell from the first picture, but in the second, no puff or slash really.... cant see in the first because of the armor... would these boots be worn with slashed hosen?

No problem. I have a feeling that the boots in picture two are very tight fitting and would stand up on their own, or there could be a hidden tie/lace/garter that holds them up. Here is another pic by Durer that shows these types of boots from the first picture. The only problem is that this is about 40 years older then the woodcut of the armour. You can see the buckles that cinch up the boot tight.

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/renaissance-woodcuts/ad_paum_r

I'm assuming that the boot was buckled or laced up over the knee and then the armour was strapped over the boot and knee together. This would keep the boot up and give some more padding to the knee. Yes I think they would have worn slashed hosen under the armour. In almost every picture of a Landsknecht in armour that I have seen shows them wearing thier normal clothing under the armour. The exception would be once you got up to the upper ranks who were wearing full suits of armour and have an arming coat under it.

The boot closure looks like it was loose and then the body of the boot would be folded over and buckled or pointed close to a tight fit. I have seen woodcuts of these boots with as few as two or three buckles to ones with more. Hope this helps,

Karl Helweg made a reference to a source I did not have/was not familiar with. So I asked for a scan, and he asked me to post it here as well, to provide ideas for the rest of you.

As you can see, the center burgonet has a bargrill that is not quite, but almost SCA legal. Double the number of bars, and BAM there ya go!

<img src="http://members.armourarchive.org/mattmaus/karlburgs.JPG">

Imperial Austria shows a similar burgonet on plate #55 as part of a MASSIVE setup (4 helmets, 3 sets pauldrons and on and on as part of an exchange rig). That one is a burgonet with hinged cheeks, and 3 bars vertical, the vertical bars also have horizontal spikes! both covering the face some, and sticking out from the face as I assume a passive attack/punch to the face deterent. It also has a hinged cheek burgonet with a T shaped opening. That one dates to 1560 or so.

Thank you for making the burgonet post.

So does anyone have a good cheap source for vertical striped socks?

Mattmaus, where did you learn to make a helmet like that? I'm wanting to make something similar, for rapier combat, and would love a point in the right direction. Did you mostly dish the helm? How many pieces did you make it from? Of all the helms similar to the burgonet, I've only been able to find blueprints on an English close helm, so if you have a pattern I'd love to see it.


Domenico

rbaldwin wrote: I've only been able to find blueprints on an English close helm, so if you have a pattern I'd love to see it.

I'm guessing you found Craig Nadler's close helm plans. That is in fact the pattern that my burgonets are based on. I had to modify the bevor to get the shape I wanted, and the top halves some for size and shape... the brow band he has is modified on those slightly... but they are mostly an evolution from his pattern.

Yep, here is one, although it is from about 15 to 20 years earlier...

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/ren ... ts/woodcut

It is a little hard to see but they are just like the 15th century boot except the broad "cow mouth" toes.

Here is another one from 1544...

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/ren ... uts/beham1
_________________
Jason
Veltin Grimm

In the first pic, I dont think those are boots. I think they are cow mouths, possibly stitched to tights (which is seen in a lot of the Durer engravings) but the "tops" you are seeing are actually the bottom of the pluterhosen, not the tops of boots. (The hosen often went below the knee, I would assume to cushion armor if worn).

in the second example, those same high boots are seen on several members of color guard, or "standard bearer" engravings of the same period.

But I have seen not a heckuva lot of evidence for a lot of boot wear by LK in period.. usually cow mouths or or other lasted shoes.. and some turnshoes.

Maeryk

Maeryk wrote:In the first pic, I dont think those are boots. I think they are cow mouths, possibly stitched to tights (which is seen in a lot of the Durer engravings) but the "tops" you are seeing are actually the bottom of the pluterhosen, not the tops of boots. (The hosen often went below the knee, I would assume to cushion armor if worn).Maeryk

It's a bad example I know, but I can't find the really good one I have somewhere. I will keep looking. I think they are boots because almost all of the depictions of demi-lancers I have seen, show them wearing them. Like the Durer painting I posted earlier. You can also see the seam running down the side of his calf. That is (I feel) the folded flap that is used to cinch the boot up.

t's a bad example I know, but I can't find the really good one I have somewhere. I will keep looking. I think they are boots because almost all of the depictions of demi-lancers I have seen, show them wearing them. Like the Durer painting I posted earlier. You can also see the seam running down the side of his calf. That is (I feel) the folded flap that is used to cinch the boot up.

From the art I have studied, the boots usually show wrinkles.. and a line across the top of the foot. The cowmouths usually show almost NO side on the show, but high heel counters and toes..

I would love to see the better pic if you can find it! but in that pic, I think its just cow mouths and tights.

Please! Share! I can only own so many engraving books! *grin*

Maeryk

Hi Maeryk, I still was not able to find that image, yarrgg!! I most likely saw it on the net somewhere and didn't save it. I did do some searching in the books I have at home and found the following images...

Here are some I found in the book "Landsknechte und Reisläufer: Bilder vom Soldaten" by Matthias Rogg...

1) by Durer but very early from 1497

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/renaissance-woodcuts/Durer_1497

2) A cool painting by Hans Herbst in 1514 that shows a Landsknechten wearing boots and the guy on the horse might be wearing them too, although the angle makes it impossible to say for sure. This picture is from the book "Spätmittelalter am Oberrhein: Maler und Werkstätten 1450-1525".

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/renaissance-woodcuts/hans_herbst_1514

3) This is a woodcut by an anonymous artist. Look at the guy at the front right table. He is wearing boots that are wrapped and extend above his knees.

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/renaissance-woodcuts/anonymous_1519_20

4) Here is an interesting one, look at the guy with the axe on his shoulder is wearing boots that are closed with about 7 buckles and are tied with garters above the knee. There is another guy to the right that is wearing boots that look to be wrapped.

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/renaissance-woodcuts/pertracameister_1520

5) Last another woodcut by Hans-Sebald Beham, 1540, that shows the typical jack boot.

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/renaissance-woodcuts/hans_sebald_beham_1540

Hope this helps, I wish I could have found more pictures from the 1550's but no such luck.[/url]

Danke Schoen!

Maeryk

Maeryk wrote:Danke Schoen!

Maeryk

Nichts zu danken.

Jason - nice pictures. There are many examples of many types of boots in the "Triumph of Maximilian I" I just don't have a way to post them here. Still, vertically striped socks would be cool and even more typical if anyone can find a cheap source. Wish that I had run into you earlier. Vis. Erick "Bucky" Bearsbane and I were working on landsknect while we were in Anchorage in the mid-80s. Small club

Hi Karl,

If you wish, you can email them to me and I can put them on my site. I would like to check them out and i'm always looking for more material. The striped hose would be great if you could get the SCA protection you need under it and still have it look like your leg. With the boots it is much easier to hide the protection or if you make the boots heavy enough, they could be the protection and still look historically correct.

Well in the mid 80's I was living in Reno, so no luck there. But, if you are ever in the area, let me know. One of these years I might be able to move east and be closer to the action (wife, kids, and job willing).

Karl Helweg wrote:I have a serious question. How many folks out there are working on a landsknect persona, guarb, and/or armour? How many would if you had the resources?

Working on a Landsknect persona as we speak. Have a nice set of plunderhosen although I am now aiming more toward early 1500's so they are a little late period for me. Also have a really nice sallet and am working on shoes with a local shoe-maker (When I have the time, this project has fallen by the wayside.)

Gauvin

I said pillage THEN burn Dammit!

The resources are definately out there. Right now the only thing hard to find, off the rack, is a katzbalger.

The hose are available, the pluterhosen and rocks, shoes are being merchanted, theres at least three sources (cheap, pricey, and friggin ridiculous) for harnesses that I know of off the top of my head.. its a bit of a "fad" right now.. (thank god.. I'm so freakin sick of elizabethan!) in this area, and its not hard to get ahold of.

Plus, the number of seamstresses I have run across willing to tackle LK stuff is growing by leaps and bounds!

The trick is the money required..its _not_ as cheap a kit as say, saxon or viking..


maeryk

Jason Grimes wrote:-- snip--
http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/renaissance-woodcuts/wood02

The cool thing about this armour is the leg armour. The long tassets end with polynes that have been made to look like the slashed knees of hosen. This gives you the knee protection you need without having to rely on hidden protection.

--snip--

Not a perfect representation, but everything would fit right in for that historical period. Hope this helps,

That's what I want to do for my next project. Now, if I could only find some better pictures of those, as that one is a bit grainy. From what I can tell thought, the polynes look to be simple soup-can knees with the slashes cut out of them...

JP

Karl Helweg wrote:Thank you for making the burgonet post.

So does anyone have a good cheap source for vertical striped socks?

Man, I've been looking for that for a while too... so far, no joy.

I wear these when I need particolored/striped under my pluterhosen:

http://www.tgertoggs.com/pants.html#tights

They arent EXACTLY right, but that codpiece/pouch is a godsend at times, and they are quite comfy, and my dear wife hasnt gotten around to fitting tights for me yet!

Maeryk

Maeryk wrote:The resources are definately out there. Right now the only thing hard to find, off the rack, is a katzbalger.

The hose are available, the pluterhosen and rocks, shoes are being merchanted, theres at least three sources (cheap, pricey, and friggin ridiculous) for harnesses that I know of off the top of my head.. its a bit of a "fad" right now.. (thank god.. I'm so freakin sick of elizabethan!) in this area, and its not hard to get ahold of.

Plus, the number of seamstresses I have run across willing to tackle LK stuff is growing by leaps and bounds!

The trick is the money required..its _not_ as cheap a kit as say, saxon or viking..maeryk

Doesn't Lutel have a good selection of Katzbalgers? I have a cheap Iberia Katz, looks OK, not great though. It was only $130.

Maeryk - What do you mean by "shoes are being merchanted"? Is there someone out there that is going to start making the correct style shoes? I though I had heard a rumor about HE going to do it?? If you have some more information, please let us know.

Jean Paul de Sens wrote:That's what I want to do for my next project. Now, if I could only find some better pictures of those, as that one is a bit grainy. From what I can tell thought, the polynes look to be simple soup-can knees with the slashes cut out of them...

JP

I think many were made with side fans too. Here are some more picts ...

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/late16th/13370_a

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/late16th/armour_1

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/early16th/facearmour

and a close-up...
http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/early16th/facetassets

Maeryk wrote:http://members.tripod.com/alastairfootwear/Bearpaw%20Shoe.htm

Thanks They are very nice, but a little later then I was hoping for. I was looking for the more cut down style with the wider toes. Looks like I need to start making some lasts and do my own. Does anyone know of any good information on the web about these kinds of shoes. I have the links to the Carlson (sp?) site and the shoe find in the floor in Germany. They don't have the style I'm interested in. Thanks,

I found a cobbler (Dru Shoemaker) on the GermanRenCostume Yahoo group who does the kind of shoe I was looking for .

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/meisterdru/cow_mouth.htm

From the picture it looks like they use crome(sp?) tanned leather though and they need to stuff the toes with some moss so it keeps it's shap. A little shoe polish or dye would fix the leather and you could find or purchase some moss. I think they used moss to stuff shoes with, didn't they? Otherwise looks to be a very good looking shoe and not too expensive as well ($140).

Hehe.. had no idea you were on that list too, Jason.

Yeah.. Dru's stuff looks real nice.. but I think I could probably make them myself, for what he wants. (Course, I have several hundred invested in leather and tools.. not everyone does)

Maeryk

Maeryk wrote:Hehe.. had no idea you were on that list too, Jason.
Maeryk

I think it was this thread that pointed it out to me. I need to start looking at my costume and that looked like the place to ask my (undoubtedly) many questions.

Maeryk wrote:Yeah.. Dru's stuff looks real nice.. but I think I could probably make them myself, for what he wants. (Course, I have several hundred invested in leather and tools.. not everyone does)

Maeryk

I had the same thought, then I started thinking about it. I would need to make the lasts, find and purchase the leather, learn how to make shoes in the style i'm interested in, and make them. I would love to learn but my leather skills are wanting.