The Armour Archive

Howdy Folks...

Recently, somebody posted a link to a fellow archiver who makes plaques for belts (squares that you would rivit to a belt)

He had the alphebet, some set with designs, some set with stones... etc...

Anybody know where this is? I've lost the link...

As to the question though...

What time periods are these common? Or is this just a SCAdian thing?

I was thinking of getting a belt and spelling out a latin word, or very short phrase across the back... something around 6-7 letters long...

Would this be period at all? Or is it just something that would look neat in a fantasy setting?



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Matthew Broadway (mattbroadway1974@yahoo.com)
Founder of The Armour Archive
Jack of All Trades... Master of none.

That would be me at By My Hand Designs.com. Yes, lettering on belts is a period practice. See "Dress Accessories" for details. My plates are done in the style of a 1480's French Gothic hand (capital versals actually). A lot of people have belts or collars made this way and we are working up a new alphabet in bronze uncased letters.

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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain
Failure is the price of knowledge
Changing the face of warfare one weapon at a time

Cool...

What's the URL for By my Hand Designs?

Talbot's fine excessories does them too.
talbotsfineaccesories.com, I believe.
-Wilhelm

bymyhanddesigns.com

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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain
Failure is the price of knowledge
Changing the face of warfare one weapon at a time

Cool...

Ok... Second Question...

What would be a good latin phrase to put on a belt?

I was thinking of putting my scadian name on it (Roland) but then thought that would be a bit kindergardnery...

Then thought Armour Archive... but thought that would be too long...

Then thought "AA" but thought people might mistake me for an Alcholohic (although that wouldn't be too far from the truth)

Then I thought, hmmm... well maybe a very short latin phrase... or word... but I don't know any latin...

For those fluent in latin... as I am not...

What would these be translated as?

Armour
Victory

And... Since I'm coming out of the blue here... and have no idea what type of thing is period... I'm very open to suggestions...

What sort of thing was actually put on these belts with the plaques?

Thanks a bunch.



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Matthew Broadway (mattbroadway1974@yahoo.com)
Founder of The Armour Archive
Jack of All Trades... Master of none.

well, if you can forgive the religious context:

non nobis domine sed nomini tuo da gloriam
(Not for my glory, lord, but yours. domine in lower case. )

A friend of mine translated "Nice Armor, dead guy" into middle French, that was classy.

How about 'Invictus'? Unconquered?

I'm still toying with finding a translation for 'fierce warrior kitten' myself.

lyonnete

The ubiquitous silly latin translations website (there are more of them, I'm sure):

http://www.biopsych.net/latin_phrases_for_all_occasions.htm

"'Invictus'? Unconquered"

That would be so far from the truth that I'd feel rather foolish.

Thanks for the suggestion though...

"domine" by itself would be cool though... if that means "glory"

or "nobis domine" if that means "for glory"

It would sound neat, but not really up my alley...

However, the more I think about INVICTUS across the back of my belt (ie: right over my ass), the more I like it...



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Matthew Broadway (mattbroadway1974@yahoo.com)
Founder of The Armour Archive
Jack of All Trades... Master of none.

"Domine" is "lord".

Yeah, sorry Broadway - that was a transliteration, not a direct translation.
Speak Backward Romans Do.

"gloriam" in this case is glory.

Conrad Shwartzwulf uses "semper hostis" - always fighting

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">non nobis domine sed nomini tuo da gloriam
(Not for my glory, lord, but yours. domine in lower case.) </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not quite: Latin is inflected, and very specific as to how/what words mean.

"Not to us, O Lord, but to your name be the glory."

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">or "nobis domine" if that means "for glory"</font>

This means "to us, O Lord." ("Domine" is vocative, the term used in direct address. "Lord" alone -- as in a third person reference or just the nominal form -- is "dominus.")

Effingham

[This message has been edited by Effingham (edited 01-31-2003).]

Here's one I'll probably use when I have time to make a plaque belt...

Decus Praesedium
Honor Before Glory

But I'm also interested in the answer to your question about what was actually used in period for plaque belts and livery collars.

Why does it have to be short? Are you skinny? We have put many letters on a belt. We have started at the buckle and gone all the way around to the buckle again and down the tongue.

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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain
Failure is the price of knowledge
Changing the face of warfare one weapon at a time

Just a question,

Why would you put a 1480's script on an article of dress that went out of fashion at latest 30 years prior, and was most popular 80 years prior to that?

Are there any historical examples of belt plaques with script on them?

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Bob R.

EXACTLY CHEF! Thanks...

That's the info I wanted... I don't want to do it if it's not historical in nature...

What is the period thing to do with belt plaques?



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Matthew Broadway (mattbroadway1974@yahoo.com)
Founder of The Armour Archive
Jack of All Trades... Master of none.

Hi Matt,

I have a photo of one plaque (a very important one - it is the plaque with the hook for the arming sword), that I will try to scan and post. It has a piercework fillagreed pattern in the plaque, and the two small depengdant ones holding the hook. it might be niellio work as well, but I only have a B&W photo. It is very pretty, and circa 1400 on the dot, so proper for late 14th, very early 15th century. It has hinges and pins holding it together - no leather involved at all.

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Bob R.

Matt,

Try to get your hands on a copy of _Civil and Military Clothing in Europe_ by Frederick Stibbert. It is a compilation of drawings from various sources (effigies, statuary, and the like), and there are several depictions of knights with plaque belts. They are worn on the hip, not at the waist, and are most often a repeating pattern (as opposed to mottoes or phrases spelled out). Some of Stibbert's attributions are sketchy, but his work is mostly solid and reliable. Another good source would be just about any collection of medieval brasses from the 14th and early 15th C. You can see examples of two here:

http://bob-boynton.hypermart.net/stories/armor.html

Hope this helps... -c-

[This message has been edited by cheval (edited 02-01-2003).]

Yes it does, thanks chef!



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Matthew Broadway (mattbroadway1974@yahoo.com)
Founder of The Armour Archive
Jack of All Trades... Master of none.

But Matt it is a period practice not a Scadian thing at all. Leather belts with stamped letters and with letters of tin have been found and dated to 1350-1450. Rogier van der Weydens "Deposition" (circa 1435-1440) shows a figure wearing a belt with metalic letters on it.
Chef- the versal capitals of the French 1480's manuscript that I modeled my alphabet on are nearly identical to the versal capitals in use at 1400 AD. The versal capital had a long life which is why I chose it. As for your question:

Are there any historical examples of belt plaques with script on them?

Do you mean belts with letters? (yes, see above. I think that plaques that are script certainly count.) or do you mean a hip belt worn over armour in the late fourteenth century/ early fifteenth century? Then no, none come to mind. Matthew asked for plaques to decorate a belt and that is what I have. The largest difference in my work from historical examples is that I put the letters in a case or frame to simplify mounting them or linking them in a collar. I am working on plaques for the hip belt look though.

Edit BTW Chef - if that plaque is the one from The Archaeology of Weapons Oakeshott asserts that the decoration has been redone for fifteenth century tastes so it may not be spot on for the fourteenth century anymore.

Matt- What period do you want to portray? That will determine what you do with belt fittings.

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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain
Failure is the price of knowledge
Changing the face of warfare one weapon at a time

[This message has been edited by Captain Jamie (edited 02-02-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Captain Jamie (edited 02-02-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Captain Jamie (edited 02-02-2003).]

I think I will put on my belt in runes...

Ficht mich Laufen. It's german.

It is my favorite motto.

Lodinn

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Lord Lodinn Hrafnarrson
Lord of Hus des Silber Rings
Currently stuck on a viking that won't end
ryan.kaono@siab.aorcentaf.af.mil

Hey Chef its that the same plaque belt hook found with those spurs in a wood box dated 1480?

I cant recall who they where attibuted to but Im sure thier burgundian in nature.... ( the spurs are the model of what I wish to have done for myself sometime in the future)

I got a xerox from, I believe it to be, a catalog of arms. but alas its in my books at the shop.. Ill try and dig it up later tonight ( gotta go back over and finish welding)Im thinking it was some burgundian duke and the spurs have a phraze on them..... ahh well im getting old and forgeting things now.