The Armour Archive

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I'd call it more of a Jack (on women - a "Jill" ) than a gambeson.

You seem to have the mechanics of the structure and fit down quite well. It looks like you can move in it easily. Perhaps it could have been a little higher in the neck and fuller across the throat for more protection. Really like the material choice and the way you quilted it in flared pattern. What will you be wearing under and over it? Anything heavy on top that'll need suspension from the garment?

Ingrid:

You've done a remarkable job on your arming-doublet!

If you go with a thicker foundation, perhaps you'll consider colored hemp canvas from the folks at Hemp Traders? It's the type of fabric I'd want to make an arming doublet from...

Nice!

For a sleeve pattern, check out Tasha's discussion of grand assiette tailoring at the following website: http://www.cottesimple.com/blois_and_sl ... erview.htm
If you use a grand assiette-style sleeve, you should be able to maintain your full range of motion while still providing a stable foundation for your leg armor.

Your current pattern could be easily modified to a grand asiette-style by simply deepening the armhole in the back to more closely follow the curve of the scapula. Just have a friend draw around your shoulderblades on the mockup, then adjust. Your current pattern seems to allow adequate frontal rotation while still supporting the breast, so you may not need to deepen that to correspond to the grand assiete style.

Gwyneth

BTW: if you get the hemp canvas, becareful of the wt. I've worked withthier 14 oz white canvas before, and that's some tough fabric to sew.

-+G

Ingrid

Tasha's fitting method may work for you. If you don't want the bunching in the back though try what I do. I make the armhole tight, literally coming right up under the armpit and I move the shoulder cap over onto the shoulder and not on the joint. I then add length to the sleeve and make it button at the wrist. The sleeve should be long enough for the arm to bend all the way and not pull off your wrist. This method has worked well at keeping the arming coat from shifting around when worn.

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Oh, by the way - Sexxxyyy Gambeson...

Good looking gambeson, good looking lady Keep up the good work!...Otto

A very nice look! I'd be interested in seeing a mans version - I've been looking for a nice mid 1600's doublet for a Border Rievers kit I'm working on.

Ingrid:

I am sorry I have to disagree for a lady you don't want to add a grand assiette sleeve pattern. Think straight lines.This is best used with a smaller man for armour.
I have a pattern that works well, also can be unlined for garb use.
This pattern works well for larger men, and can be made for smaller ones too.

The cut away for the elbows is a good idea, but not for the ones who use this for fighting of any form.

Try to use this fabric, called, Wrinkeless. It comes in burgandy,black,green,off white. And always use 100% cotton bating. It depends on your machine, but if you use this fabric listed above and the cotton, you can sew them ALL together. I can show you pictures of the ones I have done, If need be.

If you have any questions, please feel free to email me.

Katherined'Anjou wrote:Ingrid:
I am sorry I have to disagree for a lady you don't want to add a grand assiette sleeve pattern. Think straight lines.This is best used with a smaller man for armour.

May I ask "Why"? And what do you mean by "Straight lines"?

I have a pattern that works well, also can be unlined for garb use.
This pattern works well for larger men, and can be made for smaller ones too.

Pictures?

The cut away for the elbows is a good idea, but not for the ones who use this for fighting of any form.

Again - Why? I believe Ingrid is going to be using plate arms. I have plate arms and have had an arming doublet with padding the inside of the elbow. It bunches horribly and severely restricts bending.

Try to use this fabric, called, Wrinkeless. It comes in burgandy,black,green,off white. And always use 100% cotton bating.

What is this fabric made of? And how is it made? (he said anticipating the words; "Polyester and "blend")

It depends on your machine, but if you use this fabric listed above and the cotton, you can sew them ALL together. I can show you pictures of the ones I have done, If need be.

Pictures, please! We like to see stuff. (well, I do anyways)

Apologies if I seem to be coming across rudely, but this particular part of the forum is the "Show me your documentation" zone. Lacking that, you ought at least explain the "Why's" behind declarations of "this does/doesn't work".

Straight lines:

If you look at a man.....he is all straight lines.....the chest.etc. This even means if the guy is a larger build, he is still Straight lines. A lady is all curves.

Pictures: I can send as soon as I get a chance to get them tomorrow.

Elbow cutting:

Well, If you would snug this up, YOU wouldnt have this issue.

Fabric:

The wrinkeless is 100% cotton..this is a brand you can even buy at Walmart! Which at Walmart is no more than 4$ a yard.

Again Pictures:

I will send them once I get these done,and added to this computer tomorrow.

I understand your need for asking questions.
And as documentation goes, well, I will agian send pics soon.
Since, you are in Alexandria, VA. I can even show the hand done project to you. I am in Stafford, VA. The next event we will be at is Sapphire.
And yes this said project will be there.

Katherined'Anjou wrote:Straight lines:
If you look at a man.....he is all straight lines.....the chest.etc. This even means if the guy is a larger build, he is still Straight lines. A lady is all curves.

Granted, she has the curves, but a shoulder is a shoulder, especially at the back - not much sexual dimorphism there.

Pictures: I can send as soon as I get a chance to get them tomorrow.

Excellent. I'm very keen to see other people's approach on armor foundation garments

Elbow cutting:

Well, If you would snug this up, YOU wouldnt have this issue.

Not an issue. My lower arms are sooo snug. As is the armor above it. And that's the issue - there is no room ot put unnecessary padding under plate.

The wrinkeless is 100% cotton..this is a brand you can even buy at Walmart! Which at Walmart is no more than 4$ a yard.

Dang- cotton is out for my use - not documented in this application. What's the weave on it?

I understand your need for asking questions.
And as documentation goes, well, I will agian send pics soon.
Since, you are in Alexandria, VA. I can even show the hand done project to you. I am in Stafford, VA. The next event we will be at is Sapphire.
And yes this said project will be there.

Cool - another Vahginian. Won't be at this Saphire thingie - not my game.

Katherined'Anjou wrote:Straight lines:

If you look at a man.....he is all straight lines.....the chest.etc. This even means if the guy is a larger build, he is still Straight lines. A lady is all curves.

Not true about men, if you want tight garments for a man fat or thin he has curves too. These too images of Winterfell wearing a pourpoint I am working on will show what I mean:

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/images/cote/pourpoint.jpg[/img][img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/images/cote/pourpoint2.jpg[/img]

He has an hourglass shape but it is not as curvy as a woman but there are no straight seems on any of the patters.

I will also be at Sapphire Joust and if you seek me out I will show you my arming coat made the same way and as I talked about above. There is no need to modify the historical style of an arming cote, in fact the historical versions work better than SCA modified ones do.

James:

I see that you are making what some people call the "french fighting coat".

Nice work so far. I will be at Sapphire, If I cant find you, Please stop by our camp at Haus Gebrochen Brücke. Which will be near Caer Mear.


As for Jeff: The elbow all depends on what style you want, With the "french fighting coat" this style you can make bulky enough at the elbows to wear your armour under it, and then tight at the sleeves...gives you the puffy look at the arms, but not too much.

I will have those pics for you later this evening.

Katherined'Anjou wrote:James:
As for Jeff: The elbow all depends on what style you want, With the "french fighting coat" this style you can make bulky enough at the elbows to wear your armour under it, and then tight at the sleeves...gives you the puffy look at the arms, but not too much.

I will have those pics for you later this evening.

Not so much a question of style, but of historical correctness and functionality - usually the same thing.

Ya, those padded garments often do go over some types of armor. Not if you have later-period plate though. Big couters on the elbows, reenforces...

Greetings Katherine,

I agree the grande assiette is not entirely necessary -- for a woman or man -- but it's not because of a universal difference between the two. The grande assiette was used by both sexes (and NOT used by both sexes) in the period in which it was popular (14th/15th centuries). If one were to decide to use the grande assiette, one could use it equally well for both men and women -- in military and non-military contexts. It benefits men and women equally in the area of the back, particularly. The muscles and bones of the back make noticeable changes in position and extension out of the body when the arm is over the head and moved to a forward-pointing position. The grande assiette makes lots of room for that movement. Again, though, it's not 'required'. I like to think of it as an optional 'perq'.

Katherined'Anjou wrote:Straight lines:

If you look at a man.....he is all straight lines.....the chest.etc. This even means if the guy is a larger build, he is still Straight lines. A lady is all curves.

I'm my experience of fitting men I've found plenty of curves to put into the garments to make them fit closely. Curves are just a part of tailoring in general if one is going for a look that either requires it or that hugs the skin. The 14th and 15th centuries present us with a number of extant garments, male and female, that result in curved pattern pieces, anyway.

Cheers,
Tasha