Re-examining Modern Viking Reenactor Beliefs

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Re-examining Modern Viking Reenactor Beliefs

Post by T. Finkas »

As I was working to sharpen up my "viking" kit for this last weekends local "Winter Thing" SCA event, I perused what I could find here on the web and discovered that re-enactors & living history folks have been reevaluating the data and previously accepted attitudes since "The Vikings: Recreated in Colour Photographs" was published ( a book that I originally had thought was reasonably correct).

Here's the latest take on "viking" material culture---that I was suprised to learn (see below). For the purposes of this discussion "viking" is used to represent Norse peoples from 9th-11th cent (am I getting this time-range wrong?) :
  • LAMELLAR- Lamellar is out. There's no solid evidence of it's use by Norse during the period.
  • BIG BELT POUCHES- No large belt pouches. Purses were small, probably used for money, and may or may not have been worn exposed on the belt.
  • GAMBESONS- No evidence of gambesons worn under the mail or gambesons worn alone ar armour.
  • HATS-Only scant evidence for hats. They might not have commonly worn them. Only depiction of hats in period iconography can also be explained as helms. Most hat styles worn by re-enactors are suspect. No evidence for fur trim on hats.
  • HIGH BOOTS- No calf-high boots, though every other re-enactor in "Vikings...Photographs" seems to be wearing them.
  • WIDE BELTS- Belt width was fairly narrow, with the average being 0.75".
  • DECK TENTS- "Viking" tents with solid frames being used on land very suspect, having been drawn from one example that is part of a ship burial. It's the frame that's suspect---not the use of tents.
  • SWORD BELT- swords believed to have been carried on baldics not waist belts.
  • LEG WRAPS- Never worn in a criss-cross fashion but worn in a sprial overlap fashion (just like WWI puttees)
  • WOMEN'S APRONS- the overdress was for many years a straight tube. It has been reinterpreted as a tapered tube (ala the Birka Valkerie figural plate).


Care to add any more to the list, or dispute/correct what I have posted? Please do! I am not talking about horned helmets and wearing animal skin cloaks---the "informed" community got past that a long time ago. I am talking about things we thought we knew, but are now not so sure. Or things that recent discoveries have shed some new light on.

Skoal,
Tim Finkas
Last edited by T. Finkas on Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dispelling Modern Viking Reenactor Gafs

Post by Michael B »

Splinted limb armour - isn't this based on a Vendel find from well before the Viking period, and perhaps something in the far East?

Baggy trousers aren't found everywhere - hose or narrow trousers seem to be more prevalent.

Belts as part of women's dress, at least with metal fittings - I understand that the finds are limited.

Tortoise shell brooches for every woman, all through the period and everywhere! - I understand that they are more restricted to the earlier parts of the period - 9th C?

GeneriVikings, with kit from all over the place (particularly jewellry, belt fittings etc).

These are off the top of my head as indications of changes in thinking - I have not tracked down the evidence for the purposes of this post.


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Post by Wolf »

hey i have that book, i liekd it too. enver sat and really looked at stuff to dispell anything.

wheres this sca vikign thing at? sounds like an ok event. details?
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Post by James B. »

I have heard complaints about the rough cut junk amber before. Basicly there is only one find on amber and it was nicelt polished not just chunks on a string like many reenactors and SCA folk wear.
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Post by T. Finkas »

Wolf wrote:hey i have that book, i liekd it too. enver sat and really looked at stuff to dispell anything.

wheres this sca vikign thing at? sounds like an ok event. details?


It was this last weekend 50 miles south of Pittsburgh. I spent so much time making new stuff, and staying up too late, I didn't arrive till the event was nearly over. As luck would have it, I arrived about 30 minutes before closing Court and dinner. I'd only been there about a half-hour when I noticed they were cutting up some beautiful salmon, but unfortunately I am really put off by the stuff. I thought about that and the prospect of sitting through an hour or so of court business that is typically boring for me, at a table where I didn't know anybody, with a course that gives me the heeby-jeebees---then I made the decision to get out of there while I had the last dying light of twighlight to navigate bach to the main highway and head for home.

So I drove an hour to spend about 40 minutes there ---laugh---. It was not a great event for me, but that was my own fault. As often is the case, the making of the gear was the most fun. But that's me. :)

Skoal,
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Re: Dispelling Modern Viking Reenactor Gafs

Post by Mord »

StudBuckle wrote:As I was working to sharpen up my "viking" kit for this last weekends local "Winter Thing" SCA event, I perused what I could find here on the web and discovered that re-enactors & living history folks have been reevaluating the data and previously accepted attitudes since "The Vikings: Recreated in Colour Photographs" was published ( a book that I originally had thought was reasonably correct).

Here's the latest take on "viking" material culture---that I was suprised to learn (see below). For the purposes of this discussion "viking" is used to represent Norse peoples from 9th-11th cent (am I getting this time-range wrong?) :
  • LAMELLAR- Lamellar is out. There's no solid evidence of it's use by Norse during the period.
  • BIG BELT POUCHES- No large belt pouches. Purses were small, probably used for money, and may or may not have been worn exposed on the belt.
  • GAMBESONS- No evidence of gambesons worn under the mail or gambesons worn alone ar armour.
  • HATS-Only scant evidence for hats. They might not have commonly worn them. Only depiction of hats in period iconography can also be explained as helms. Most hat styles worn by re-enactors are suspect. No evidence for fur trim on hats.
  • HIGH BOOTS- No calf-high boots, though every other re-enactor in "Vikings...Photographs" seems to be wearing them.
  • WIDE BELTS- Belt width was fairly narrow, with the average being 0.75".
  • DECK TENTS- "Viking" tents with solid frames being used on land very suspect, having been drawn from one example that is part of a ship burial. It's the frame that's suspect---not the use of tents.
  • SWORD BELT- swords believed to have been carried on baldics not waist belts.
  • LEG WRAPS- Never worn in a criss-cross fashion but worn in a sprial overlap fashion (just like WWI puttees)
  • WOMEN'S APRONS- the overdress was for many years a straight tube. It has been reinterpreted as a tapered tube (ala the Birka Valkerie figural plate).

Care to add any more to the list, or dispute/correct what I have posted? Please do! I am not talking about horned helmets and wearing animal skin cloaks---the "informed" community got past that a long time ago. I am talking about things we thought we knew, but are now not so sure. Or things that recent discoveries have shed some new light on.

Skoal,
Tim Finkas



Hi ya,

Lamellar: Please explain the plates found at Birka. I will send you the article if needed. Birka, btw, is the only place you find lamellar plates in the "viking world."

Belt pouches: Again, Birka, check Ardwiddson "Birka" analysis. I have that too. So where else would you put a pouch? Down your pants?

Belts: Birka certainly has some persuasive evidence for belts, but most of the evidence comes from buckles found. For instance, the buckle on the belt I usually wear is taken from Gokstad, Norway and the burial there. The real question was were buckles for horses bridles or people. There is some arguement about this, and it is often confused with the Sutton Hoo purse lib.

Buckles were, on the whole small, and found all over.

Tents: Oseberg (Osebergfundit) and Gokstad were the only burials that contained tent poles. Both were ship burials. In fact, if I remember correctly Oseberg contained two sets of poles. What do you mean by "deck?" Ship's deck? Or a deck as a floor? If ship's deck, then I agree, the poles in question were too large for a ship's deck.

High Boots: The boots I wear were based upon the Hedeby finds--look there. Shoes are fond at York (Jorvik), too.

Leg wraps: yup they didn't criss cross. I haven't been able to make a pair long enough (via card weaving to work). How'd ya do it? Loved the catches you had.

Gambassons: nada: vikings didn't have them. There was some talk some years ago about padded leather tunics, etcs. I still haven't seen it.

Women's aprons: Ask Auntie Thora on this one. I'm a guy.

Poofy pants: Also ask Auntie Thora on this one. However, I do remember seeing a pair of narrow pants with feet from Denmark. I have often thought the evidence for poofy pants is from the Gotland Stones, which shows mounted folks with poofy pants and possibly boots, but this is pictorial evidence and someone maybe asking more of this evidence than possible.

Gotta remember that the so-called "Viking Age" lasted for about 250 to 300 years and covered a very large geographic area. Things, like fashion and trade, changed and different places had different traditions and different needs. Look, for instance, at graves. You have cremation graves, chamber graves, coffin graves, boat graves, puedo-boat graves (symbolic boats) and boat chamber graves all from the "Viking Age."

Place, time, and social position is really important in all this.

Mord.
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Re: Dispelling Modern Viking Reenactor Gafs

Post by T. Finkas »

Sir Mord wrote:Lamellar: Please explain the plates found at Birka. I will send you the article if needed. Birka, btw, is the only place you find lamellar plates in the "viking world."


This seems to currently be a "hot topic" for re-enactors. There's discussion of it on Sword Forum:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread ... t=lamellar

Sir Mord wrote:Belt pouches: Again, Birka, check Ardwiddson "Birka" analysis. I have that too. So where else would you put a pouch? Down your pants?

Belts: Birka certainly has some persuasive evidence for belts, but most of the evidence comes from buckles found. For instance, the buckle on the belt I usually wear is taken from Gokstad, Norway and the burial there. The real question was were buckles for horses bridles or people. There is some arguement about this, and it is often confused with the Sutton Hoo purse lib.

Buckles were, on the whole small, and found all over.


Belt pouches on armored warriors is the main idea that has been called into question, but furthermore and exposed money pouch on any personna. Mind you, I am not the one questioning this, I am talking about a seemingly prevailing new feeling amongst the re-enactment community.

One Birka purse was found witha coin or two in it---good evidence of what the purse was used for. But how was it worn? One grave find suggested on the belt, yet anothet suggested around the chest. Hey---maybe these were worn from a thong around the neck, on the chest---perhaps over the tunic but under the outer coat. That would agree with at least one of the grave finds. This is all subject to interpretation and speculation, I guess.

As for the belt, I was referring to the width aspect. The evidence points to 3/4 of an inch width as average. The average width you see on re-enactors, I'd say, would be twice that or more.

Sir Mord wrote:Tents: Oseberg (Osebergfundit) and Gokstad were the only burials that contained tent poles. Both were ship burials. In fact, if I remember correctly Oseberg contained two sets of poles. What do you mean by "deck?" Ship's deck? Or a deck as a floor? If ship's deck, then I agree, the poles in question were too large for a ship's deck.


I am refering to the elaborate rigid frame with carved dragon heads you see replicated so often---as opposed to a simpler pole set-up. These were tents used on ship with no conclusive evidence that such frames were also used on land. That's what I was getting at. Not the tent itself, but using a frame that might have been a particular part of the ship furniture.

Sir Mord wrote:Leg wraps: yup they didn't criss cross. I haven't been able to make a pair long enough (via card weaving to work). How'd ya do it? Loved the catches you had.


A confession: the wraps I was wearing were merely my WWI French wool puttees. Last minute, I sewed a pair of small cloak clasps to the end to serve as hooks. They were a bit large I think, by about 200%, but they have the right shape and construction. I had originally bought the pair to serve as belt ends---way back when. King's Keep hase some GREAT repros at the correct size.

That being said, I made the puttees from some boiled wool cloth that I was confident was stretchy enough to fit well. Boiled/Melton wool can be easily cut without need to bind the edges against fraying. My next pair will be out of some nice herringbone weave wool I have---I have learned that herringbone is the proper weave for these things. The problem will be that this weave will readily fray when cut so I will have to bind or hem the edges somehow. This will be tedious if done by hand, as the puttees are about 2 meters or more in length. :)

---------------

Skoal,
Tim
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Re: Dispelling Modern Viking Reenactor Gafs

Post by MariaAgrissa »

StudBuckle wrote:[*]WOMEN'S APRONS- the overdress was for many years a straight tube. It has been reinterpreted as a tapered tube (ala the Birka Valkerie figural plate


Hi! Sorry I didn't get a chance to say hello - I know that Mord got to talk to you, at least for a minute. You left early and missed the induction of Baron Tofi into the Order of the Pelican, which was a cool piece of court business you might have enjoyed. :wink:

As for the viking apron-dress, Mistress Thora Sharptooth's interpretation (which inspired Mistress Ellisif's, which inspired basically everyone else's) is based on textile finds from Hedeby and Birka. These finds showed evidence of tailoring (i.e., the tapered pieces) on the overdress layer.

Of course, the most annoying thing about "viking recreation" is the assumption that everything viking was the same in every place, at every time. Thora and Mistress Marieke's Complete Anachronist follows an evolution of the apron-style overdress, as I recall, which shows variations of the style, including a rectangular panel (or two) just wrapped around the body.

If you wonder why so many women prefer the tapered version, well, it just looks better on! Vanity is a universal motivator.

Maria A.S. (who was Mairi again for the weekend)
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Post by Glen K »

Tim,

Your list seems to be rather complete about the recent 'advances' and points of discussion in Viking-period living history. The llamellar discussion is very interesting to me, as I have no real horse in that race yet love to examine how the reenactment/LH community deals with the question; it's a great case study!

Most of the discussion on the ol' Sword Forum seems relevant, except for the continuous Finality of "Digital" Dan Howard.

Halvgrimr or Guthroth are probably the best folks to talk to about the "state of the art" concerning viking LH kit.
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Re: Dispelling Modern Viking Reenactor Gafs

Post by James B. »

StudBuckle wrote:My next pair will be out of some nice herringbone weave wool I have---I have learned that herringbone is the proper weave for these things.


Tim one note I learned last year. The herringbone finds are all solid color not mutlicolored like most of what we find today. Kim got me some solid green herringbone while she was in NY in the fashion distric a few months ago :D. One of my next projects
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Re: Dispelling Modern Viking Reenactor Gafs

Post by T. Finkas »

James B. wrote:
StudBuckle wrote:My next pair will be out of some nice herringbone weave wool I have---I have learned that herringbone is the proper weave for these things.


Tim one note I learned last year. The herringbone finds are all solid color not mutlicolored like most of what we find today. Kim got me some solid green herringbone while she was in NY in the fashion distric a few months ago :D. One of my next projects


James,

I just read an online essay that said some of the extant puttees were a bi-color herringbone weave.

Tim
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Re: Dispelling Modern Viking Reenactor Gafs

Post by James B. »

StudBuckle wrote:James,

I just read an online essay that said some of the extant puttees were a bi-color herringbone weave.

Tim


Really? Can you pass that on to me?
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Post by Cory Nielsen »

I think you could add "Long, dangling belt-ends" to the list.
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Re: Dispelling Modern Viking Reenactor Gafs

Post by Mord »

StudBuckle wrote:
Sir Mord wrote:Lamellar: Please explain the plates found at Birka. I will send you the article if needed. Birka, btw, is the only place you find lamellar plates in the "viking world."


This seems to currently be a "hot topic" for re-enactors. There's discussion of it on Sword Forum:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread ... t=lamellar

Sir Mord wrote:Belt pouches: Again, Birka, check Ardwiddson "Birka" analysis. I have that too. So where else would you put a pouch? Down your pants?

Belts: Birka certainly has some persuasive evidence for belts, but most of the evidence comes from buckles found. For instance, the buckle on the belt I usually wear is taken from Gokstad, Norway and the burial there. The real question was were buckles for horses bridles or people. There is some arguement about this, and it is often confused with the Sutton Hoo purse lib.

Buckles were, on the whole small, and found all over.


Belt pouches on armored warriors is the main idea that has been called into question, but furthermore and exposed money pouch on any personna. Mind you, I am not the one questioning this, I am talking about a seemingly prevailing new feeling amongst the re-enactment community.

One Birka purse was found witha coin or two in it---good evidence of what the purse was used for. But how was it worn? One grave find suggested on the belt, yet anothet suggested around the chest. Hey---maybe these were worn from a thong around the neck, on the chest---perhaps over the tunic but under the outer coat. That would agree with at least one of the grave finds. This is all subject to interpretation and speculation, I guess.

As for the belt, I was referring to the width aspect. The evidence points to 3/4 of an inch width as average. The average width you see on re-enactors, I'd say, would be twice that or more.

Sir Mord wrote:Tents: Oseberg (Osebergfundit) and Gokstad were the only burials that contained tent poles. Both were ship burials. In fact, if I remember correctly Oseberg contained two sets of poles. What do you mean by "deck?" Ship's deck? Or a deck as a floor? If ship's deck, then I agree, the poles in question were too large for a ship's deck.


I am refering to the elaborate rigid frame with carved dragon heads you see replicated so often---as opposed to a simpler pole set-up. These were tents used on ship with no conclusive evidence that such frames were also used on land. That's what I was getting at. Not the tent itself, but using a frame that might have been a particular part of the ship furniture.

Sir Mord wrote:Leg wraps: yup they didn't criss cross. I haven't been able to make a pair long enough (via card weaving to work). How'd ya do it? Loved the catches you had.


A confession: the wraps I was wearing were merely my WWI French wool puttees. Last minute, I sewed a pair of small cloak clasps to the end to serve as hooks. They were a bit large I think, by about 200%, but they have the right shape and construction. I had originally bought the pair to serve as belt ends---way back when. King's Keep hase some GREAT repros at the correct size.

That being said, I made the puttees from some boiled wool cloth that I was confident was stretchy enough to fit well. Boiled/Melton wool can be easily cut without need to bind the edges against fraying. My next pair will be out of some nice herringbone weave wool I have---I have learned that herringbone is the proper weave for these things. The problem will be that this weave will readily fray when cut so I will have to bind or hem the edges somehow. This will be tedious if done by hand, as the puttees are about 2 meters or more in length. :)

---------------

Skoal,
Tim


Ok,

The lamellar would be the hot topic. The article on the Birka lamellar was only published last summer in "Fornvannen." Like I said, I'll send you the article if you want it. Halvgrim, btw, has a translation.

Thanks for clarifying the pouch question. The real proof would begin in where the pouch was found: what kind of grave (if it was found in a grave), the gender of the grave, what else was found, etc.

I know from personal experience (which is not a good experiment!) that carrying a pouch into a fight is good way to lose the pouch and all that's in it.

As for tents, look in Nicolaysen's Gokstad book--I'll send you copies of that too if you want it. The tent poles found were carved. I can't remember about OseBerg. Where they were used: on land or on ship is an endless arguement: I don't think any archaeologist would be able to conclude anything. Evidence was found and documented (to use a loaded word), but very little more.

Loved your leg wraps, and yes I saw the hooks you used to secure them. My Lady has a pair of hooks for me. I just haven't been able to make usable ones.

Mord.
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Post by T. Finkas »

James,

Regarding Bi-color herringbone weave for Leg Wraps (aka Puttees, Wickelbander, Winningas, etc.):

...Modern weaves usually have different-coloured warp and weft, to accentuate the herringbone effect. It is unclear whether this was the rule in the early medieval period, but at least some wickelbander were made this way (see above)...

The entire essay may be found here:

http://users.bigpond.net.au/quarfwa/mik ... wraps1.htm

------------

Sir Mord:

Sure, any copies of relevant research would be welcome. Please bear in mind here that I am just bringing this stuff up for discussion---these are not necessarily my points-of-view, but rather ones that I had begun to run into lately, ones that were in the spirit of rethinking/dispelling previously accepted theories.

I am not accepting this "new stuff" at face value, but I find it stimulating and thought-provoking. I experience a similar process where I sporadically re-examine my beliefs and methods and either validate them or discover there's a need to change what I previously did or previously understood.

Skoal,
Tim
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Post by James B. »

Thanks Tim

I have read that page a few times and yet missed the fact it said there were some examples with different colors warp and weft.
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Post by Mord »

StudBuckle wrote:James,

Regarding Bi-color herringbone weave for Leg Wraps (aka Puttees, Wickelbander, Winningas, etc.):

...Modern weaves usually have different-coloured warp and weft, to accentuate the herringbone effect. It is unclear whether this was the rule in the early medieval period, but at least some wickelbander were made this way (see above)...

The entire essay may be found here:

http://users.bigpond.net.au/quarfwa/mik ... wraps1.htm

------------

Sir Mord:

Sure, any copies of relevant research would be welcome. Please bear in mind here that I am just bringing this stuff up for discussion---these are not necessarily my points-of-view, but rather ones that I had begun to run into lately, ones that were in the spirit of rethinking/dispelling previously accepted theories.

I am not accepting this "new stuff" at face value, but I find it stimulating and thought-provoking. I experience a similar process where I sporadically re-examine my beliefs and methods and either validate them or discover there's a need to change what I previously did or previously understood.

Skoal,
Tim


Tim,

I find it stimulating and thought-provoking too. It's one of the reasons I'm on this list. I wasn't trying to contradict or anything like that--some of the stuff you've talked about I have a little experience in.

The thing about studying the vikings, the archaeologists, and the historians is that opinions are always changing. New information is found. Old information is re-examined. More importantly, much that is available is incomplete. This is a pet-annoyance of mine. The trading of opinions and information is all important. Thanks for your posts.

Mord.
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Post by Timothy_D._Finkas »

Sir Mord:

Hey, feel free to contradict :) that's what this thread is for!

Skoal,
Tim

BTW: I will probaby use this identity now. I used to post under my own name but switched because I wanted to pimp my buckle company. However, I find it more satisfying to post under me real name, so now I am returning to my previous mode.
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Post by Primvs Pavlvs »

Dontcha think that assuming all legwraps were herribone is over doing it?

This is what I call the "cookie cutter" re-enactor. If there is one piece found, or even a couple pieces found. Re-enactors tend to all copy it, and assume they were all done in this fashion.

I am sure its safe to asssume that legwraps in the "Viking Age" were constructed of plain ole' weaving and not only herringbone.
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Post by James B. »

Tim, you can actully keep your old account and change the login/name I did a while back.
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Post by Timothy_D._Finkas »

Paul von Katzenellenbogen wrote:Dontcha think that assuming all legwraps were herribone is over doing it?

This is what I call the "cookie cutter" re-enactor. If there is one piece found, or even a couple pieces found. Re-enactors tend to all copy it, and assume they were all done in this fashion.

I am sure its safe to asssume that legwraps in the "Viking Age" were constructed of plain ole' weaving and not only herringbone.


Well, I guess you can assume whatever you are comfortable assuming, given the information available.

I agree that avoiding the cookie cutter effect is desireable and that to do so one must often stray a bit from a slavish copy of the artifacts. The viking world was certainly more varied than what the extant material evidence shows. As such we are only afforded the thin sliver of a view into their world---and a few assumtions must be made in order to reasonably flesh out a portrayal.

I am not against this practice by any means! However, I do believe one should venture into this territory after as much consideration as possible of the available info. In this case, the herringbone pattern appeals to me and I will probably make up a pair of winninges accordingly. I am not going to look down my nose at folks that take another route, so long as they do it "informedly."

Skoal,
Tim
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Post by Charles O'Connor »

Tim, at the Viking event, I found your pouch very interesting (much smaller than I thought). I was not the only one expressing an interest in your hat. I would be interested in details.

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Re: Dispelling Modern Viking Reenactor Gafs

Post by Ny Bjorn »

StudBuckle wrote:[*]DECK TENTS- "Viking" tents with solid frames being used on land very suspect, having been drawn from one example that is part of a ship burial. It's the frame that's suspect---not the use of tents.


There are 2 1/2 preserved A-frame tents: 2 from Oseberg and a fragmentary one from Gokstad. They all have carved heads on them. Birka hird have a tent made after the Oseberg ones (not as big though) and it works very well on dry land. As for the correct messurments - please look at the Fröjel-site: http://www.frojel.com/Documents/Document01.html

/N B
Last edited by Ny Bjorn on Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Laurie Wise »

Will the owner of the Time Travel Machine, please stand up?

This is what we really need. Everything else is well thought out conjecture and educated, informative guesses based on what scattered evidence found. It's getting better though.

But I remember when the SCA "Viking" (circa 1971) was not much better than using such sources as the "Big Red Viking Book" by Tryckre or using evidence from Runestones. Or the two shipfinds, goldfoils, or what other finds to piece together their costumes from. What is offered now for the reenactors would make those older ones cry.

By the way, about "Baggy trousers aren't found everywhere" ....there are some runestones carvings showing their use.
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Post by T. Finkas »

Charles O'Connor wrote:Tim, at the Viking event, I found your pouch very interesting (much smaller than I thought). I was not the only one expressing an interest in your hat. I would be interested in details.

Charles O'Connor


Thanks for your interest, Charles.

The size of the pouch was a calculated guess because the document I used as reference only gave hints at the size (i.e. telling how long the rivets were, or describing the size of one component on one purse---not necessarily mine). If it only needs to contain coins, perhaps the small size is realistic? I will probably make the next one a tad larger.


Image

The hat is based on one found at Birka. My version admittedly employed some artistic license such as the tablet woven band, the bronze beads and the finial details. The original is reputed to have been silk or had silk trim (as remnants of silk fibers were found inside the extant finial), the finial was cast, and the pendant object at the apex of the finial was "mesh balls". While I have seen the finial and replicas of it (Raymond's Quiet Press makes one), I decided to make mine out of punch-decorated sheet brass because I am having so much fun using that process. Again, these are artistic departures that I feel comfortable with after considering what info I could find on the original artifacts.

I don't have any good links on the original info, but a Google search for Birka Viking Hat should give you something to sift through (like I did).

Skoal,
Tim

------------

BTW: James, thanks for the tip on changing my screen name

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Post by Ny Bjorn »

Baggy trousers are to be seen on, at least, two Gotlandic picturestones and on a copper alloy figure from Uppåkra (Sweden). And then of course there's the find from Haithabu's harbour, interpreted as parts of a pair of baggy trousers by Inga Hägg in her report on the textile finds.

/N B
Last edited by Ny Bjorn on Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Mord »

Timothy_D._Finkas wrote:Sir Mord:

Hey, feel free to contradict :) that's what this thread is for!

Skoal,
Tim

BTW: I will probaby use this identity now. I used to post under my own name but switched because I wanted to pimp my buckle company. However, I find it more satisfying to post under me real name, so now I am returning to my previous mode.


Not to sound callous, Tim, but have I got work for you! I can document it--I just can't make it.

I'll be in touch.

Mord.
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Post by T. Finkas »

Sir Mord wrote:...have I got work for you! I can document it--I just can't make it. I'll be in touch.


Yes, let me know what you have in mind, Mord.

--------------------

By the way, I just changed the thread title to something a bit more descriptive of what's going on here. Also, the terms "dispelling" and "gaffs" seemed inappropriatly "loaded" upon reconsideration. I hope none of the participants herein are offended.

Skoal,
Tim
Last edited by T. Finkas on Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Mord »

Laurie Wise wrote:Will the owner of the Time Travel Machine, please stand up?

This is what we really need. Everything else is well thought out conjecture and educated, informative guesses based on what scattered evidence found. It's getting better though.

But I remember when the SCA "Viking" (circa 1971) was not much better than using such sources as the "Big Red Viking Book" by Tryckre or using evidence from Runestones. Or the two shipfinds, goldfoils, or what other finds to piece together their costumes from. What is offered now for the reenactors would make those older ones cry.

By the way, about "Baggy trousers aren't found everywhere" ....there are some runestones carvings showing their use.


Actually, they are found on the Gotland Stones. "Gotlandes Bildstinne" by Sune Lindqvist is the source here. Also, "Stones Ships and Symbols" is useful, but only in a basic way.

I've already talked about this.

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Post by FrauHirsch »

Timothy_D_Finkas wrote:James,

I am not accepting this "new stuff" at face value, but I find it stimulating and thought-provoking. I experience a similar process where I sporadically re-examine my beliefs and methods and either validate them or discover there's a need to change what I previously did or previously understood.

Skoal,
Tim


Tim,

I just went through a re-examination of primary source material for viking women and became pretty convinced that the tubular, but slightly flaired at the waist shorter "apron-dress" now worn commonly by re-enactors was just as much conjecture as the old two flap apron. For women from this period, there are just very small bits of fabric left, and many iconographic examples show a clearly a decorated apron.

My final analysis for women's clothing:

There was probably more than one style of Viking women's clothing.
Women from different regions/countries probably wore different styles.
Women most likely wore different clothing in summer vs winter.
Women of different social classes probably wore different styles.

Sound familiar?

So my theory:

Sometimes women wore decorated aprons. These may have been a front and back flap, or just a front flap. You can't really tell from the iconography, but a front flap is most definitely visible.

They sometimes wore pleated fabrics. However one doesn't need to pleat the fabric to achieve a correct profile if one wears an apron over properly cut heavily gored tunic dress with a train, because the gores on the sides will fall in pleats and flow just like the iconography.

Sometimes women (especially very early) may have wore a tube wrapped around them as an apron dress.

Sometimes women may have worn two flaps with the openings in the front and back, not on the sides, sometimes with another apron over that.

Sometimes women may have worn a more fitted overgarment that could have been like the tube garment women wear, or two fitted flaps, with seams or darts down the back (and probably the front.) It could have been short or long, because we don't have a lot of info, however none of the iconography I found showed any indication of a shorter overgarment. For all we know it was open in the front.

I was able to make a dress with a pretty darn correct profile using the two flap apron laced at the sides with darts in front and back and a sash over a properly cut tunic dress, and it still met the parameters of the extant archaeological finds, and would be suitable for a woman's main pastime in the medieval times - nursing. Even though fitted, undoing the straps allow the front to roll down.

So why was the two flap apron design dismissed? Because there was no evidence of belt fittings in gravefinds which would hold the apron in at the waist. Without a belt, the garment seemed too impractical, it would blow around in the wind, would fall forward when trying to cook over a fire, etc.

However one extant piece shows wear/fulling at the waist from a belt - so perhaps a tablet woven sash? (This is still used in Scandinavian women's folk wear.) Once we have something to hold two flaps down at the waist, rectangular shaped aprons become very practical - no cutting when manufacturing, a two flap apron would have 4 sides to get dirty before washing, and they were prevalently used in cultures cooking using open fires for centuries.

Were they short or long? Iconography shows long gowns. But these were representative of rich women, nobles, goddesses, not thralls. Evaluating other cultures near that period, shorter garments are worn by the poor. Shorter garments are also worn by snow cultures in winter. Long dresses just don't work well in deep snow, however indoors a long dress will seal the body heat to the floor and keep out drafts.

What my final conclusion was - we don't have enough information to know for sure, but there are several reasonable conjectural recreations.

It was very interesting to go through all the current documentation again after almost 20 years away from looking at Viking costume.

One of these days I'll get some pictures....

My Viking interest was rekindled not from the SCA, but from a Sons of Norway group nearby that holds Viking Mythology themed dinners.

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Re: Reviewing Modern Viking Reenactor Beliefs

Post by Halvgrimr »

Hey guys
I am so far behind from being out most of last week that I havent had much time to check the archive today.
Add that to leaving for a week of vacation tomorrow evening and I am really behind!

anyway, here are my quick opinions




[*]LAMELLAR- Lamellar is out. There's no solid evidence of it's use by Norse during the period.

--IMO the Birka lamellar is akin to future archeologists finding a Lamborghini. They were present but rare and only a few had access to them





[*]BIG BELT POUCHES- No large belt pouches. Purses were small, probably used for money, and may or may not have been worn exposed on the belt.


--avoid them

[*]GAMBESONS- No evidence of gambesons worn under the mail or gambesons worn alone ar armour.

--avoid them


[*]HATS-Only scant evidence for hats. They might not have commonly worn them. Only depiction of hats in period iconography can also be explained as helms. Most hat styles worn by re-enactors are suspect. No evidence for fur trim on hats.

--avoid them but if you must have one for gods sake stay away from the fir trimed ones. Thora has an excellent pattern on her site for a simple hat.



[*]HIGH BOOTS- No calf-high boots, though every other re-enactor in "Vikings...Photographs" seems to be wearing them.

--again, avoid them, no archeological evidence to support them (the pics for that book were taken almost a decade ago before such evidence was easily available or accepted;)



[*]WIDE BELTS- Belt width was fairly narrow, with the average being 0.75".

I keep my waist belt at 1 inch
My baldric and guige strap at 3/4 of an inch
And my secondary belt at 1/2


[*]DECK TENTS- "Viking" tents with solid frames being used on land very suspect, having been drawn from one example that is part of a ship burial. It's the frame that's suspect---not the use of tents.

--2.5 frames found
from very rich graves
not an item the common man would have had IMO



[*]SWORD BELT- swords believed to have been carried on baldics not waist belts.

--agreed but a simple vertical baldric can get in your way when moving.
Id plan to get rid of mine and go for a 'slung baldric' in the future



[*]LEG WRAPS- Never worn in a criss-cross fashion but worn in a sprial overlap fashion (just like WWI puttees)

--agreed



[*]WOMEN'S APRONS- the overdress was for many years a straight tube. It has been reinterpreted as a tapered tube (ala the Birka Valkerie figural plate).[/list]


--No idea, my knowledge of female stuff is very limited (just ask my wife;)


And thanks for however suggested me as a good source but there are others that are far more qualified that I to give advice in this area;)

halv
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Post by Cap'n Atli »

But we've got to have belt pouches! How else will we be able to carry our reading glasses, driving glasses, heart medications and cell 'phones on the field?

:P

Paul von Katzenellenbogen:

Out term for the endless repetition of specific archeological objects is: "authenticlone." We spend a lot of time "decloning" or individualizing stuff so that we can reflect at least some of the actual diversity, within the perameters of the time and place depicted.

"Deck" Tents: These tents work perfectly well in a situation in which you can't stake down tents, be it ashore or aboard. However, even on a broad-beamed ship like the Gokstad or the Oseberg, I'm rather skeptical about their practicality on board. They might have been used in-harbor, but only when a substantial portion of the crew would be ashore. With a full crew aboard they would be a messy hindrance to any normal operation. Their advantage is that they could break down into long, linear sections (like most of the rest of the ships gear- oars, spars, brailled sails and awnings...) and they could be set up on just about any terrain ashore. I will argue that they were not the only style of tent that the Vikings may have employed, but since they're the only style with any direct artifacts, we're back in an authenticlone situation again. :roll:

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Post by Laurie Wise »

LOL.....yeah. I am sure my question has been answered and chewed over before.

As for pouches. Well, I agree. Just where are we to put our glasses, car keys, wallets and more? If you needed glasses back then, you were out of luck. The guys gave their keys to the women to keep for them (and as secruity that they wont be lost). Wallets with creditcards.....well, there is always the nearest monestary to raid for "ready cash".

Face it, some important modern concerns have to be considered that will jar with authenticity. Unless you carry it all hidden under your costume.

But I am glad for all the hard work and new finds none the less.
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Post by Michael B »

Despite the particular examples cited, my statement remains:

"Baggy trousers aren't found everywhere"

(I certainly didn't say they weren't anywhere ...!)

Then again, don't ask me to back up the rest of my assertion.

M
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Post by Ny Bjorn »

Michael - I do agree - my post was just to underline your statement, i.e. there are finds and pictorial evidence but that goes for narrow trousers as well and the pictorial evidence for the latters are much more common.

/N B
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