Re-examining Modern Viking Reenactor Beliefs

[Keegan Ingrassia]

I am guessing Tim wont refute your assertions there Harry.

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[Hrolfr]

I am guessing Tim wont refute your assertions there Harry.

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[Cap'n Atli]

This is a commonly-given "justification" that I've never remotely accepted. If one of the great things about Norse ships was that they could go up onto, and then off of, a beach incredibly rapidly, you totally negate that advantage if you disable your ship (and thus means of escape) just to protect you from a little dew. I'm no expert on Scandanavian culture or the details of going a-viking, but I can't imagine a war band (large or small) totally disabling their strongest advantage and means of transportation just to sleep under a cover on shore, even for a single night.

Glen, if that's the basis for your thinking on the sail as shelter, then you're thinking is off.

Those big viking ships were row-boats. Yes, they had a mast and a sail and they used them, but when you wanted to take that puppy onto the beach and back off, you didn't do it under sail, you used the oars.

Having the sail down does not disable those ships, most especially not in the context you're talking about here.

Of course, Cap'n Atli has better knowledge than I on the subject and I would ask him to weigh in, if he would care to.

...and another zombie thread arises (forgive me)...

However, on our voyage last week Cap'n Ceecy and I were explaining just why you want to come to dock, or shore, under oars and not under sail.

When coming into a pier or wharf, with limited windward ability, you can't count on taking way off when striking sail, even if you have the oars in. We tried this several times in the Sae Earn, and it usually led to chaotic collusion avoidance and (once) to a semi-crash landing with minimal damage since we had minimal winds. All in all we decided it was a good way to damage rigging and break oars.

Landing on the shore under sail is technically known as "running aground." If you were beaching her on purpose the problem arises when you swivel the steerboard up and consequently loose all steering control. Yes, you can set an oar or two, but except under the lightest wind conditions, you risk breaking the oar, or the strake, or some bones. (We once accomplished two out of three in a near gale in the early days. Fortunately, the oarsman didn't need a cast.) If you're coming into shore under oars it's not that hard to pivot up the steerboard and maintain control by commanding the oarsmen, port and starboard. It does take a lot more commands to keep a good course, but that just shows how useful the steerboard is. I will also note that under oars you have a much finer control of your speed. A lot better to "run up on" the beach than to "smash into" the beach. (We had a number of unexpected gusts last Sunday.)

The result of this discussion (which was much abbreviated from the above) was that we followed our standard procedure and stood off about 100 yards from the dock, then spent about 10 minutes furling/lowering the sail, shooting the yard through the shrouds, securing the braces, and setting the oars. We thereafter proceeded to row into our slip with minimal trouble, despite an onsetting breeze.

But... This is a discussion about tents and shelter, and I will note that we do not use our main sail for tenting when aboard or ashore. Instead, we would use our backup, smaller, storm sail and oars for tenting; and that's where I and the other officers and occasional crew slept ashore. It's not too much of a stretch that any retired sailcloth would be used for shelter, either for crew or for sensitive cargo; but you don't get good performance out of a cold, wet, miserable crew, so making provisions for their continued comfort, and survival, is not a bad idea. My previous observations and comments earlier in the thread still apply.

[Harry Marinakis]

I am guessing Tim wont refute your assertions there Harry.

Who?

[Halvgrimr]

Tim or T. Finkas....the person you replied to.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Tim was an excellent chap. His spirit is meandering down the stream of time.

[MJBlazek]

Even gone he continues to spark discussion!

[Glen K]

Grrr, I can't resist......

[quote=Halvgrimr]The sail insn't necessary for beaching and unbeaching (though it would be in the way if it were draped over the spar and over the sides of the boat)[/quote]

[quote=Kilkenny]Those big viking ships were row-boats. Yes, they had a mast and a sail and they used them, but when you wanted to take that puppy onto the beach and back off, you didn't do it under sail, you used the oars.[/quote]

I apologize; after re-reading what I wrote, it does sound like that's what I was implying; it's not. I figured that a ship would go to shore and leave shore soley under oar power. But the longship is much more effective with a sail AND oars as movement options rather than oars alone, and my though was using the primary (or arguably even secondary) sail in such a way as to not be able to get it and have it for transportation needs. It does make sense, perhaps, to use a secondary sail for shelter, but if a high-class person is going to need a tent why not just use a tent rather than part of the ship?

[Konstantin the Red]

Additiionally, the sail plus two poles, ropes, and a coupla stakes makes pretty good shelters as well.

This is a commonly-given "justification" that I've never remotely accepted. If one of the great things about Norse ships was that they could go up onto, and then off of, a beach incredibly rapidly, you totally negate that advantage if you disable your ship (and thus means of escape) just to protect you from a little dew. I'm no expert on Scandanavian culture or the details of going a-viking, but I can't imagine a war band (large or small) totally disabling their strongest advantage and means of transportation just to sleep under a cover on shore, even for a single night.

That argument depends on the mainsail being the single large piece of canvas on board -- full stop. That's poor provisioning if you take a thrashing in a storm: no telling how many spare mainsails they'd actually carry, but I'd believe more than one.

So I don't think that's a good point because stowing tent-canvas aboard as well wouldn't be really any further trouble. It's not like viking ships had sail lockers or orlop decks. The tent canvas could do double duty even underway, in sheltering stores even against green water over the bow.

[Robert of Canterbury]

I think there may be a misconception in play here.

Viking sails are, as I understand, currently thought to have been made of Worsted woolen twill, and were not inexpensive. ideas about casually using them for secondary purposes need to be closely examined.

Look up Anna Nørgård, who wove a pair of sails for the Viking Ship Museum at Roskilde,
http://www.vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/en/

[Steve S.]

Tim was an excellent chap. His spirit is meandering down the stream of time.

What a great sentiment. I like it.

Steve

[David Blackmane]

Damn, I didn't know he had passed.

Rest well, brother.