Re-examining Modern Viking Reenactor Beliefs

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guthroth
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Post by guthroth »

Hi

The are covered by this thread is probably big enough to warrant several different ones, but here's my opinion.

[*]LAMELLAR- Lamellar is out. There's no solid evidence of it's use by Norse during the period.


Can't argue with that one. The finds from Birka are very interesting but according to an archeologist friend, they come from a portion of the burial ground which was used by people with a lot of VERY non-Scandanavian burial practices. When this evidence is combined with the newly translated article on Halvgrimr's webspace which places the location of the manufacture of the Birka lames in Tibet or Siberia, the idea of Vikings running around in Lamellar is just not tenable.

Comments about Vikings going to Byzantium and 'bringing their armour home' are not very likely. Byzantine armies were organised with depots and the troops issued with equipment from stores. IMO the chances of an ex-Varangian bringing home is Lamellar armour are about as likely as a modern US army regular being allowed to bring his rifle and body armour home when his time was served.

[*]BIG BELT POUCHES- No large belt pouches. Purses were small, probably used for money, and may or may not have been worn exposed on the belt.


Finds from Denmark and Sweden suggest they may have been worn as a high status display item, rather than as a viking-age handbag. They certainly were never worn with armour. When moving about a LH site a shoulder bag is actually a more practical item, and that does have room for snack food like apples as well. Any worn should be based on the ones from archeology, and not the modern thick leather 'box' style. I just wish we could persuade the traders not to sell the blasted things.

[*]GAMBESONS- No evidence of gambesons worn under the mail or gambesons worn alone ar armour.


Again, despite the very persuasive argument that they must have worn something under a ring shirt I can't really disagree. The only direct evidence for them in N Europe is post 1st Crusade, and all the modern words we use have a southern European origin. Personally, I believe that the existance of padded armour in warmer climates was bought about by:
1) the need to protect against an enemy who used lots of archery and slashing swords
2) the need to have a decent layer of protection over the top of the very thin - silk and cotton - clothing normally worn in warmer climes

Again just my opinion, but I reckon the reasons the North never developed them are
1) they are of limited value against the main weapon of the free warrior - the heavy thrusting spear
2) simply putting on 3 or 4 homespun woolen kyrtles will provide almost as much protection and will be warmer.


[*]HATS-Only scant evidence for hats. They might not have commonly worn them. Only depiction of hats in period iconography can also be explained as helms. Most hat styles worn by re-enactors are suspect. No evidence for fur trim on hats.


Hats are Ok, it's the style that is causing the problem. If you need or want one I reccomend a simple 'skull-cap' design maybe with some simple embroidery around the edge. Neat not gaudy. The Gotland ones - again - seem to be taking the style to it's extreme and may have been influenced by fashions from elsewhere.

[*]HIGH BOOTS- No calf-high boots, though every other re-enactor in "Vikings...Photographs" seems to be wearing them.


The highest adult footwear found come up to about mid-calf and (IIRC) have 1 fixing just above the foot. The oft-worn sea boots apparently come from the mis-interpretation and photocopier enlargement of a drawing childs boot.

[*]WIDE BELTS- Belt width was fairly narrow, with the average being 0.75".


Again, this is what all the archeology says. I think we've now finally buried the idea of carved weightlifting belts being worn as 'armour'.

[*]DECK TENTS- "Viking" tents with solid frames being used on land very suspect, having been drawn from one example that is part of a ship burial. It's the frame that's suspect---not the use of tents.


The traditional re-enactment Viking tent is well supported by the major finds, but probably should really only be for Kings or Jarls. I use hollywood references very sparingly, but for something more appropriate to a warrior on campaign, there is a very short sequence in the LOTR 3 film where they are riding through the camp of the Rohirrim and they pass a number of small tents with a raised front and a low back, about big enough for one or two men. They are very similar to a style of tents still being used by fishermen on the Lofoten Is in the 19thC and would make a useful counterpoint to the big 'Kings' tent.

[*]SWORD BELT- swords believed to have been carried on baldics not waist belts.


Agreed. the chest strap also helps hold the armour in place when running and it is easier to wear a baldric when riding a horse as well.


[*]WOMEN'S APRONS- the overdress was for many years a straight tube. It has been reinterpreted as a tapered tube (ala the Birka Valkerie figural plate).


Not really my area, but generally my view agrees with this.


Michael B added

Splinted limb armour - isn't this based on a Vendel find from well before the Viking period, and perhaps something in the far East?


Right on both cases. The Arm splints from Sweden are pre-Viking and I believe they had been abandoned by the Byzantines by 800 as well.

Baggy trousers aren't found everywhere - hose or narrow trousers seem to be more prevalent.


Ny Bjorn added
Baggy trousers are to be seen on, at least, two Gotlandic picturestones and on a copper alloy figure from Uppåkra (Sweden). And then of course there's the find from Haithabu's harbour, interpreted as parts of a pair of baggy trousers by Inga Hägg in her report on the textile finds


Agree with both. The Baggy trousers appear to be a distinctly Eastern tradition, and seem to be unknown in Norway, Iceland, Danelaw or Ireland. Hose or loose trousers were musch more common, with hose becoming the norm - at least for the moderately wealthy - by the end of the Viking era.

[*]LEG WRAPS- Never worn in a criss-cross fashion but worn in a sprial overlap fashion (just like WWI puttees)


Legwraps - Puttees - Winningas - all the same thing. Ubiquitous in A-S England and optional for Vikings whether they wear trousers or hosen. I think the criss-cross thing is a Frankish custom, rather than Norse. so OK for Normans.

Belts as part of women's dress, at least with metal fittings - I understand that the finds are limited.


Very much a current argument. Apparently very rare in an A-S context, but supported by a very small number of finds in Scotland and Scandanavia. I suspect that a woman working around a fire wore one but, given the variability of a womans waistline they were most probably fabric or tablet woven not leather. If you accept the current theory that Hangeroks were worn only as part of the Viking equivalent of 'Sunday Best',the idea of wearing a belt with a hangerok is even less plausible. Someone dressed to impress would not spend her time stirring the pot, and so wouldn't need to keep it tied back out of the way.

This is very much a modern re-enactor problem, in that all the ladies want the best clothing found, but are then apparently happy to cook while wearing it.

Tortoise shell brooches for every woman, all through the period and everywhere! - I understand that they are more restricted to the earlier parts of the period - 9th C?


Apparently more common than previously believed, but definately going out of fashion at the end of the 9thC. Their decline may have been linked to the Christianisation of the Norse, especially relevant given the latest find of a possibly 9thC Christian church in S Norway.

GeneriVikings, with kit from all over the place (particularly jewellry, belt fittings etc).


Also known as the 'Pick-And-Mix' Viking. We try to get our guys to be consistant with items like this, and have them all from one culture or style. We do allow a single out-of-culture piece, but only if the person wearing it can give a decent explanation - one that would satisfy a member of the public - as to why that piece is so different and how he got hold of it.

James B said

have heard complaints about the rough cut junk amber before. Basicly there is only one find on amber and it was nicelt polished not just chunks on a string like many reenactors and SCA folk wear


I am told that the chunk stuff went out of use about the time of Christ. Apart from those associated with workshops, all Viking-age finds are worked pieces, cut shaped and often polished as well.

Albrecht said

think you could add "Long, dangling belt-ends" to the list


This comes in two types. The SCA-type reaching to the floor are not supported by the archeology, but there is still evidence for belts that reach down to mid thigh in a Viking context. There is some unpublished evidence for metal belt loops being used to tidy the belt up just like we do today, but its adoption as Cannon Law by at least one society the archeologists are still out on this one.

I will add one thing to this thread - Men should not be wearing masses of beads - of any kind.

Grave finds support a pendant on its own - which could be amber, jet, (or any other semiprecious stone) or pewter, bronze or silver - or maybe a metal pendant with one or two beads on the same string but that's all. Otherwise it's the ladies who wear all the good stuff - Sorry Guys :wink:

As a final treat, attached is a photo taken at a Vikings event last weekend in Ontario. It shows Ragnar of Torvik facing an unfeasibly large looking Edward of Wynmerestow. Someone has already commented on how it looks much more like David vs Goliath :shock:
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Post by Rev. George »

I'm not too sure exactly how wide wicklebander should be, however, you can get herringbone wool trill tape in widths up to 1.5" here:

http://www.woodedhamlet.com/tapes_braid ... twill.html

#02-150, 1 1/2" wide - $ 4.75/yard
#02-875, 7/8" wide - $3.00/yard
#02-500, 1/2" wide - $2.50/yard
#02-375, 3/8" wide - $ 2.40/yard

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#R02-150, 1 1/2" approx. 55 yards - $ 235.00/roll
#R02-875, 7/8", approx. 55 yards - $148.00/roll
#R02-500, 1/2", approx. 55 yards - $123.50/roll
#R02-375, 3/8", approx. 27 yards - $ 59.00/roll

QUANTITY PRICING AVAILABLE, TWO ROLL MINIMUM

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Post by Endre Fodstad »

guthroth wrote:and all the modern words we use have a southern European origin.


Like vápntrøia? (lit. 'armour/weapon shirt')

That's pretty norse, though from 12th/13th century sources.

The reason the modern words are SE in origin or middle eastern in origin is because the 19th century scholars who established the terminology in the english-speaking word tended to overfocus on SE sources, and because of the french elements in the english nobility made the english scholars (who spread their linguistic influence to the US) use their "home-grown" (duh) terminology.

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Post by guthroth »

Endre Fodstad wrote:
Like vápntrøia? (lit. 'armour/weapon shirt')

That's pretty norse, though from 12th/13th century sources.


That's the problem though. Still nothing at all from the 9th/11thC.


The reason the modern words are SE in origin or middle eastern in origin is because the 19th century scholars who established the terminology in the english-speaking word tended to overfocus on SE sources, and because of the french elements in the english nobility made the english scholars (who spread their linguistic influence to the US) use their "home-grown" (duh) terminology.


Your point is well made, and I apologise for presenting an Anglo-centric point of view, but apart from Latin and Hebrew, I suggest Anglo-saxon and Old Norse are the most studied 'dead' languages in the world, and AFAIK between them they do not have a word for a specific padded coat or garmment for wearing under armour until Gambeson and Ahketon are introduced in the early 12th C.

Endre, if you can push this linguistic link back beyond the 1st Crusade please do so, it would make life so much easier :cry:
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Post by Caithlinn »

Hija,

Can't keep out of this one, can I? (Hi Michael B)

The worsted wool tape Rev. George posted is unfortunately much too narrow. Even 1.5" is not enough, 7-10cm is the normal width of the legwraps found. But since they have been found in a number of weaves (herringbone, twill, tabby) most with woven selvedges, which makes for the problems one has today in finding adaequate legwraps, but some with edges secured by sewing, I don't really see that the "generiviking" has only the herringbone option.

Apron dresses and belts: The conclusions Frau Hirsch drew seem sound enough, but mostly common sense, anyway. However, a few comments:

Pleated underdresses were certainly worn, judging by the finds in Birka, but I doubt they were necessary to achieve a "profile".

Try wearing two "flaps" with their opening in back and front with only two brooches in the front ...... even with another apron over them, no chance the whole ensemble will stay up without more "securing devices" which we have no evidence for.

The suggestion of side lacing has a been proposed as a means of closure for a fitted apron dress by Inga Hägg. On the basis of the existant fragment from Haithabu, which forms the basis of all "fitted apron dress" theories, the problem with this suggestion is that it doesn't have any evidence for lacing holes, rings etc. The sideseam line was smooth without larger holes or other signs of wear or tear caused by laces. The fragment of "apron dress" found in Haithabu has been interpreted as a back panel, on the grounds that previous research in Birka had shown that the front of a "dress worn with straps" had a horizontal hem across the chest. Therefore (yes, combining different areas here!) the entire "dress" should not be open in front. Pictorial evidence which sometimes can't even be dated properly has both the artistic license and the "how do you make sure that you look at the right thing" problem.

My pet peeve is the "nursing" thing!! Who the hell came up with the idea that women had NOTHING else to do in the dark ages, than to CONSTANTLY nurse children? Has anyone really looked closely into this? I can't remember where I read it, it was in another discussion where people had done some serious social recearch and comparisons and they came up with the following numbers: an average of 18-26 months between births and an average nursing time of 7-12 months. And that doesn't mean every woman was the same! How about infertility? malnourishment? wise women's remedies? etc etc. Sorry for the rant, just sometimes it drives me off my tree! Nursing is possible through a reasonable keyhole slit in the front or a middle seam opened for that purpose and later sewn back together again!

Anyway, back to the topic, several conjectural reconstructions, yes, certainly. The way that tailoring turns out to have been used (at least in Haithabu, where our main evidence comes from, thanks to the harbour!) makes it in my eyes a bit too "simple" to have a very niftily cut dress and then only two panels to go on top of them.... The cut of a jacket is very sophisticated, as well as the fragments of tunics and pants, for example. And the pieces found weren't all "high society" clothes either... Plus, I wouldn't want to subject neither the front nor the back part of my dresses to a reversed two flap apron, when it needs to be changed due to "filthiness".....

Anyway, the evidence for women's leather belts (apart from the strap ends in Scotland) seems still very scarce, but a cloth/fibre based belt would not necessarily leave a trace and could have been worn or not. A fitted apron doesn't necessarily need a belt, yet the fragment from Haithabu showed clearly a felted area at waist level. A two panel construction would certainly benefit from it, as well as a tube, which also has to be wide enough to be comfortable and therefore with more loose fabric. Also, the finnish aprons (from waist down) were in most cases only preserved because of their brass embroidery. If that wasn't customary and/or aprons were not worn by wealthier people, there would necessarily be a trace left of them. Lots of possibilities here as well.

So, I guess the discussion about the "one true form of hängerock" will go on forever, until a number of viking women step out of the mist (at various locations) one day.....

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Post by Halvgrimr »

Caithlinn wrote:Hija,

So, I guess the discussion about the "one true form of hängerock" will go on forever, until a number of viking women step out of the mist (at various locations) one day.....

Caithlinn


It will have fine company along with the "Pouch or No Pouch" and "Vikings wore lamellar" debates;)


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Post by T. Finkas »

Rev. George wrote:I'm not too sure exactly how wide wicklebander should be, however, you can get herringbone wool trill tape in widths up to 1.5" here:

http://www.woodedhamlet.com/tapes_braid ... twill.html

#02-150, 1 1/2" wide - $ 4.75/yard


This article:

http://users.bigpond.net.au/quarfwa/mik ... wraps1.htm

says 75-100mm is the typical size range. That's approx 3-4 inches. Perhaps the 1 1/2" width would be suitable if one use 2 widths butted and sewn inconspicuously at the edge? However, that might effect how stretchy it is. The cost would be $19.

Consider also that half a yard of (60" width) herringbone twill wool cloth would probably cost less and yield 4 lengths of cloth at 4.5" inches wide, which could easily provide enough for one pair, plus enough width th turn back and hem if needed. Just athought.

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Post by Caithlinn »

Consider also that half a yard of (60" width) herringbone twill wool cloth would probably cost less and yield 4 lengths of cloth at 4.5" inches wide, which could easily provide enough for one pair, plus enough width th turn back and hem if needed. Just athought.


No hem, just sew the edges over...... works with tabby and twill, too.

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Post by Halvgrimr »

That's what I do
I have found that in the end machine sewn works better than hand sewn.

As someone pointed out the bindings need to be 'stretchy' so there is allot of stress on the seams IMO.

The hand sewn seams always tear out on me at inopportune moments;)

Course my sewing sucks so that could be a factor;)

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Post by Endre Fodstad »

guthroth wrote:Endre, if you can push this linguistic link back beyond the 1st Crusade please do so, it would make life so much easier :cry:


No-one can, AFAIK (as you well know) but that's the problem with all christian scandinavian written sources. There are, as far as I know, references to textile armour in some sagas with earlier timeframes, but seeing as they were written down in the 12th and 13th century, that helps little. I do not think any experts in old norse have looked too closely at the word vápentrøia to date it properly, though. One thing is for certain: the word is home-grown - certainly not of southern origin. Which sort of was what I was commenting on. It is eternally irritating to hear scandinavian viking LH'ers yapping on about gambesons and akhetons when they have a perfectly good norse word to use.

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Post by Buran »

Coming late to this discussion, but has anyone (recently) discussed hair length? It seems to be a "reenactorism" to assume that all Norse men had long hair and beards, while the thin evidence suggests that this was not always the case.
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Post by Halvgrimr »

It is my onion (having done absolutely NO research on the issue) that the matter was one of practicality and possibly location.

There is no doubt that long hair and a beard help keep one warm when in colder climates (say like the middle of the Northern Atlantic ocena at just about any given time;)

Those "Vikings" in warmer climates would have little need for them as they would be more of a detriment than anything (not only the heat aspect but they since most of what are deemed as "beard combs" (and there are a but ton of them) are probably more akin to Nit combs it seems likely that lice seemed to be a problem as well)

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Post by Primvs Pavlvs »

Buran wrote:Coming late to this discussion, but has anyone (recently) discussed hair length? It seems to be a "reenactorism" to assume that all Norse men had long hair and beards, while the thin evidence suggests that this was not always the case.


How about all the re-enactors who sport the 1950s "bad guy" goatees? Too many of us, myself included have anachronistic goatees. I personally have never seen a drawing or painting of a Norman or a Viking with a goatee. We all look like Evil Spocks!
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Post by Halvgrimr »

I think the most often over done reenactorism is the fact that everyone wants to be a person of wealth because hey, they have all the cool stuff;)

I haven't run any numbers of this but I am betting the poor/middle class outnumbered the wealthy by a large number, yet most LH camps lack this aspect of what we do.

No one ever wants to be Rodger the goat herder or Michael the stable cleaner or Zed the lice infested, boil having, rotten teeth owning, crippled from a bizarre wagon incident town drunk;)

When I first started getting into LH I vowed to focus on the commoner, that lasted for about 2 months;)

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Post by T. Finkas »

Halvgrim wrote:...I know the Saami had tepee like structures ...


Here's something I have been wondering about: What was the Sammi (aka Sami, Saami, etc.) culture like during the time period we are examining? Was it anything like it is now, or is that all 18th century fashion (like practically every other European "folk costume")? What do the sagas say about the Sammi? Can modern Sammi material culture offer us any clues about viking culture during the period we are examining?

Here's some Sami tent images I found:

http://www.ub.uit.no/northernlights/ima ... rus05d.jpg

http://img.slate.msn.com/media/1/123125 ... miTent.jpg

http://www.cuttlefish.net/oscillate/Images/samitent.jpg

http://www.arcticphoto.co.uk/search/pre ... 77-27m.jpg

Skoal,
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Post by James B. »

Paul von Katzenellenbogen wrote:How about all the re-enactors who sport the 1950s "bad guy" goatees? Too many of us, myself included have anachronistic goatees. I personally have never seen a drawing or painting of a Norman or a Viking with a goatee. We all look like Evil Spocks!


I had one until I joined Grey's. I shaved it off before my forst event and I like my face clean shaven and have not gone back.
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Post by Cory Nielsen »

Paul von Katzenellenbogen wrote:How about all the re-enactors who sport the 1950s "bad guy" goatees?


I wear a goatee, day-to-day, but I usually grow my beard out if an event or something is coming up. For a film shoot last year, I grew it into an Abe Lincoln-style beard (something I could back up on the Bayeux Tapestry).

Luckily, there's plenty of evidence for short hair, because I think I'd look silly with long hair. :shock:
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Post by Ny Bjorn »

On hair length: When I was in the Army I had the usual crew-cut. The trouble that occured over and over again when I attended public events and LH-displays was that all flaming Neo-Nazi skin heads for miles around thought me to be one of them - YUCK! [img]http://www.langkawi.dk/a1434.gif[/img]

Ever since I wear my hair long, authentic or not - I'm not much for fancy cuts, I keep it long or close to nothing...

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Post by Griffin »

While reading up on other things, I came across a passage about Vikings having a hair style similar to Normans, short in back, shaggy in front. Also that the Normans thought the Anglo-Saxon style of long hair on men effeminate.

One thing I would like to see more of is differing styles of beads instead of all amber, all the time. From Iceland to Sweden, carnelion and rock crystal beads were found. There is also various colors of glass beads, gold, silver, and bronze, and jet. There are 2 finds in Latvia of cowrie shells being used. Not to mention the various coins and pendants. I know one woman who displays her SCA award tokens on her bead necklaces. A very cool way of showing off ones "wealth". The day I learned that men didnt wear beads was a sad one for me, a happy one for my gf. She got all the goods.

Where did the idea of using trim to hold up an apron dress come from? Ive never seen evidence of anything but using loops of material.

The omnivikings annoy me with the grabbing of something from everywhere. There are wonderful areas that have been researched greatly that allow a person to do it right. Hence the reason I am an Anglo-Dane. YAT has made it easy to be a viking. :)
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Post by Endre Fodstad »

Ny Bjorn wrote:On hair length: When I was in the Army I had the usual crew-cut. The trouble that occured over and over again when I attended public events and LH-displays was that all flaming Neo-Nazi skin heads for miles around thought me to be one of them - YUCK! [img]http://www.langkawi.dk/a1434.gif[/img]/N B


There sure must be a lot of neo-nazis in your neighbourhood; I love wearing my hair close-cropped.

Now for viking age hair. From what little we can tell, from the few bog finds (I seem to remember a head from current northern germany, with a moustache, close-cropped beard or pointed, and "norman" cut, from the 8th century), carvings, and occasional illustration, the viking age male seems to have worn his hair short and his beard and mustache closely trimmed, even if pointed - all those combs and scissors in grave finds seems to have had a function, after all. The Shaggy-Viking-look has in all likelihood been popularized so heavily people seem to ignore the lack of evidence for it - after all, a "barbarian" must be untidy, or he cannot provide a contrast with us civilized short-haired lads! This ties closely into the blatant overuse of fur seen in Fluffy Viking land (and sometimes the Shaggy-Fluffy Viking act gets combined, with the expected wooly mammoth result), again despite the lack of evidence.

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Post by Ny Bjorn »

[enormously OT] Sadly enough that is still quite true Endre, even though the worst period was during the 90's. Even worse is that even though you see fewer of them today you can't be sure if their brains grew out allong with their hair.
Worst so far was Wolin 2000 - 350 Viking Re-anactors and some 150 hang-around Skins. That I aired my view on how little the old Norse had in common whith those uniformed "gentlemen" just rendered me a nice little run accompanied by some 20 of them - it's amazing how fast you can run with the steady beat of 40 steelclad boots behind you - and the occasional bottle throwed after you... [/enormously OT]

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Post by Caithlinn »

Where did the idea of using trim to hold up an apron dress come from? Ive never seen evidence of anything but using loops of material.


No idea where it came from, but you're quite right, most commen seems to have been straps made from fabric, around 1-2 cm wide. This topic http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=37010 deals with the same question.....

Cheers,

Caithlinn
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Endre Fodstad
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Post by Endre Fodstad »

Ny Bjorn wrote:That I aired my view on how little the old Norse had in common whith those uniformed "gentlemen" just rendered me a nice little run accompanied by some 20 of them - it's amazing how fast you can run with the steady beat of 40 steelclad boots behind you - and the occasional bottle throwed after you... [/enormously OT]

/N B


Cute. I've never seen skins at scandinavian markets, thankfully. And somehow, I never quite aquired a fascination for Wolin...

EF
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Post by T. Finkas »

Here's another re-enactor fashion I have seen and seems suspect to me: wearing a torc/torque/neckring. Did Scandanavian men wear these during the era we are discussing?

I know some of these are quite early (over a thousand years earlier)which is what makes me wonder.

Thanks,
Tim
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Post by Mord »

Timothy_D_Finkas wrote:Here's another re-enactor fashion I have seen and seems suspect to me: wearing a torc/torque/neckring. Did Scandanavian men wear these during the era we are discussing?

I know some of these are quite early (over a thousand years earlier)which is what makes me wonder.

Thanks,
Tim


I certainly saw what looked like a gold torc Daffid-Kidd's book on the vikings. Photos, however, make me wary. You never get any sense of proportion.

Mord.
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Post by Rev. George »

The Shaggy-Viking-look has in all likelihood been popularized so heavily people seem to ignore the lack of evidence for it - after all, a "barbarian" must be untidy, or he cannot provide a contrast with us civilized short-haired lads!

How about the, until fairly recent, trend of sailors to not shave/be shaved while at sea? Perhaps this is the source of those "shaggy viking" ideas?

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Post by Ny Bjorn »

Sir Mord wrote:I certainly saw what looked like a gold torc Daffid-Kidd's book on the vikings. Photos, however, make me wary. You never get any sense of proportion.


For me, as a Scandinavian archaeologist, a torc is a neckring from the earlier part of the Iron Age. It would be shaped much like the one that is to be seen here.

The neckring in Graham-Campbell/Kidd's book - if it is the one in fig 58 you had in mind - is not a torc, but "just" a neckring. Its general shape and composition is to be seen in several other finds, for example from Sandby on Öland, Sweden.

/N B
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Post by Endre Fodstad »

Rev. George wrote:The Shaggy-Viking-look has in all likelihood been popularized so heavily people seem to ignore the lack of evidence for it - after all, a "barbarian" must be untidy, or he cannot provide a contrast with us civilized short-haired lads!

How about the, until fairly recent, trend of sailors to not shave/be shaved while at sea? Perhaps this is the source of those "shaggy viking" ideas?

-+G


This would be recent only in some cases, even the merchant marine discipline from the 18th century stresses shaving, at least on Danish-Norwegian ships (in the periods where beards were not the norm).
Some submariners were exempted in modern times (at least during WW2), but those would seem to be the exeption.

I think it's mainly from 19th century bias and 20th century stupidity.

EF
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Post by Mord »

Ny Bjorn wrote:
Sir Mord wrote:I certainly saw what looked like a gold torc Daffid-Kidd's book on the vikings. Photos, however, make me wary. You never get any sense of proportion.


For me, as a Scandinavian archaeologist, a torc is a neckring from the earlier part of the Iron Age. It would be shaped much like the one that is to be seen here.

The neckring in Graham-Campbell/Kidd's book - if it is the one in fig 58 you had in mind - is not a torc, but "just" a neckring. Its general shape and composition is to be seen in several other finds, for example from Sandby on Öland, Sweden.

/N B


Yep--that's the one. So, I should call my "torc" my "neck-ring"? I should probably stop wearing the thing altogether.

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Post by Garth »

When I was knighted my belt was made by Tarrach (currently prince of Northshield) and beautifuly tooled in Jelling style beasts, with an Oseberg style design inlaid into the buckle. It's some 2" wide, big enough for a saddle cinch. My knighting 'chain' was my own torc, a Christmas present from my lady several years back and gold plated by my knight.

Neither one are right for my persona. But I ain't giving them up.

Garth (My name isn't even period for my persona! Arrrgh)
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Post by Karl »

Friends,

What do you think of these two outfits?

[img]http://home.fuse.net/medieval/northan.jpg[/img]

and for the Eastern Northan:

[img]http://home.fuse.net/medieval/eastern_northan.jpg[/img]

Images (c) 2005 Medieval Design.

These are "betas" for MD; the proper pouch and shoes are under construction still and not pictured.

Luciano is in the final stages of developing offerings for Swedish, Rus, and Lombard (also not pictured) lines of re-enactment supply and we're extremely interested in your informed opinions. :)

Thank you,
Karl
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Post by T. Finkas »

Garth wrote:...My knighting 'chain' was my own torc...


Sounds romantic!

However, isn't a fealty chain supposed to be a simple link chain (like a heraldic chain)? Couldn't anybody who wants to wear a gold-plated torc do so (issues of precise authenticity aside)?

No offense implied---just askin...

Garth wrote:...Neither one are right for my persona. But I ain't giving them up.
...


Of course, that is entirely up to you.

Tim
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Post by Rev. George »

Some submariners were exempted in modern times (at least during WW2), but those would seem to be the exeption.

Actually, at least for the US, beards were allowed until the 80's for naval personell (1987 being the last death knell, as the USCG regulations changed).

However, you do bring up an interesting point: Shaving requirements tended to crop up when beards were "out of vogue". However, we know that beards, at least trimmed in some fashion, were kosher for the nordic people at this time.

However, this is all conjecture, and mainly based on hypotheticals, and the descriptions of people by those who feared and lothed them...

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Post by Mord »

Timothy_D_Finkas wrote:
Garth wrote:...My knighting 'chain' was my own torc...


Sounds romantic!

However, isn't a fealty chain supposed to be a simple link chain (like a heraldic chain)? Couldn't anybody who wants to wear a gold-plated torc do so (issues of precise authenticity aside)?

No offense implied---just askin...

Garth wrote:...Neither one are right for my persona. But I ain't giving them up.
...


Of course, that is entirely up to you.

Tim


Well actually...

I have found examples of Viking Age chains. They're made of silver. The source I have is something like, "Sudswedish Depotfunds" or something like that. Southern Swedish stray finds from the "Viking Age." My Lady wife had a chain made for me with which I happily swear and oath to the Eastern Royalty.

I'll have to dig up the source.

Mord.
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Post by guthrothr »

Karl wrote:Friends,

What do you think of these two outfits?

These are "betas" for MD; the proper pouch and shoes are under construction still and not pictured.

Luciano is in the final stages of developing offerings for Swedish, Rus, and Lombard (also not pictured) lines of re-enactment supply and we're extremely interested in your informed opinions. :)


Hi

The first one looks pretty good apart from - you guessed it - the pouch :wink:

I don't like the colours, but that could be the lighting, your camera, your interpretive software, your monitor or my monitor :D

The second one is also OK, but I don't like the bright white trim and - again - the colours look wrong for what could be achieved with natural dyes.

One comment though, you run about with a strap end haging there and you will very soon get a little hit right on the end of your d#ck!
Guthroth Of Colanhomm

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