Re-examining Modern Viking Reenactor Beliefs

[Alcyoneus]

[*]DECK TENTS- "Viking" tents with solid frames being used on land very suspect, having been drawn from one example that is part of a ship burial. It's the frame that's suspect---not the use of tents.

--2.5 frames found
from very rich graves
not an item the common man would have had IMO

halv

Very few guns would be found in the graves of Americans in the last couple hundred years, would that indicate that they were rare, or only the very rich could afford them?

What does it take to make the frame of a tent? Wood-comes from trees. If you have trees for boats, you have trees for tent frames. The quality of wood needed for a temporary tent frame would be lower than that needed to build a boat, from which there would be a lot of waste.

[guthrothr]

Neither one are right for my persona. But I ain't giving them up.

Hi

If I can be excused the bluntness of this post, especially by you Garth, since you bought it up I'm going to use this thread to clarify an issue now, before it becomes a problem.

In 2000 an number of SCA folk attended the big Hastings re-enactment and all had a great time. They included 2 Dukes (from Atemveldt and The West) and a man who has since gone on to be King of Drachenwald.

Most of these people spent part of the weekend in awe of the event, and not only behaved impeccably but went home truly impressed with the way they were treated.

Two SCA Knights however caused The Vikings a deal of embarrasment and some subsequent problems by their refusal to obey event rules. Specifically, despite being asked nicely (twice), asked firmly, asked loudly and then being engaged in an argument with senior Vikings members, refuse point blank to remove grossly inappropriate and un-authentic items of 'garb' - specifically their White Belt and Chains.

In view of their behaviour, a firm decision has already been made regarding H2006, that if any SCA member repeats this behaviour they will have their event registration cancelled and be asked to leave the site.

SCA traditions and awards are rightly honoured and respected within the SCA environment, as are the rules laid down for SCA events. Guests are expected to adhere to these rules, even if they conflict with the way the guest behaves at an event run by their normal group.

For example, I have never asked the SCA to accept me at my Vikings rank, and have worn my symbol of office in a place where it is not displayed

Like I said, I'm sorry if this is a bit blunt, but anyone attending H2006 must be prepared to obey the event rules or not come at all.

[T. Finkas]

...What do you think of these two outfits?...

Personally, I find the lack of texture to be a bit boring. It might be desirable to offer some different weaves like herringbone or tabby as opposed to having everything (seemingly) in melton/boiled wool.

The fir trim on the Rus hat is handsome, but as we have been discussing, the current re-examination of beliefs seems to cast a doubtful shadow on fur trim for hats.

I hope this helps.

Tim

[Buran]

How about the, until fairly recent, trend of sailors to not shave/be shaved while at sea? Perhaps this is the source of those "shaggy viking" ideas?

-+G

I would guess that Trajan's Column (shaggy Goths, not Vikings) is due its share of blame.

[Buran]

One comment though, you run about with a strap end haging there and you will very soon get a little hit right on the end of your d#ck!

I had a similar thought, that evidence for belt keepers (thus shorter belts) is better than any evidence of dangly belts in period. What we have for dangly belts is post-Conquest, and generally around the time of the Crusades, if I'm not mistaken...

[Endre Fodstad]

Actually, at least for the US, beards were allowed until the 80's for naval personell (1987 being the last death knell, as the USCG regulations changed).

You gawd dann hippies.

[
However, you do bring up an interesting point: Shaving requirements tended to crop up when beards were "out of vogue". However, we know that beards, at least trimmed in some fashion, were kosher for the nordic people at this time.

Yup, trimmed beards, especially slightly pointed ones, seems to have been the norm well up into the early medieval period in Scandinavia, beards was worn (danish early medieval church painting seems to indicate it being less common there, but with the evidence available its almost impossible to judge anyway).

So wear your beard like me and the Good Reverend, short and/or pointed and neat, and your hair well above your neck! No fluffballs!

Very few guns would be found in the graves of Americans in the last couple hundred years, would that indicate that they were rare, or only the very rich could afford them?

You know, christian burial practices and all that...

I think the HE outfits look excellent, especially the top, western, outfit - I've seen Anders work on just such a cap at the Historic Museum (no viking age stuff for me, sadly - butI get guns instead!), except, you know, the belt pouch. Especially the knee-length tunic, too many "Vikings" wear short, just-below-the-belt tunics to show of their baggy pants better (aargh!).
I've found strap lengths to be fairly irrelevant; the long, very documentable medieval belt with a gazillion mounts packs much more of a whallop than a short strap end in the (unlikely, but it does happen) event your nuts get it from a wildy swinging leather-and-bronze ball-and chain. Perhaps you should have had the bronze parts tinned, that would be neat, historic, and practical. Also, thank heaven, no Iron Age tablet-woven bands used as decoration, or the (likely unauthentic) contrasting twill weave in tunics.


EF

[Caithlinn]

Hi,

I know I will only get myself in trouble, but I can't resist....

What do you think of these two outfits?

First generally ok, same issue with the colours and pouch others had, but also the pants could probably be a bit closer fitting. Or you could even try hose..... or footed pants, a la Thorsberg.

As for the "Eastern Northan" (?) the Klappenrock construction doesn't seem to be in line with the evidence we know of (front pieces cut with the grain, not diagonally, it's the hem parts that are cut on an angle). The width of the trim would be ok if it wasn't white and just cloth trim, the fake fur borders found with the Klappenrock fragments were around 10cm wide. For Eastern I'd also rather use a Caftan than the Klappenrock, however the outfit could make sense (for all we know) for someone from Haithabu, apart from the pointy hat (same point about the fur trim, too).

Hope this helps,

Caithlinn

[squire_dirk]

Like I said, I'm sorry if this is a bit blunt, but anyone attending H2006 must be prepared to obey the event rules or not come at all.

these rules?
http://www.doomzone.de/projekte/hasting ... e=kitguide

Didn't see anything about the color white under 5g) Belts and strap-ends
I'm curious about your standards for tannery process selection. Chrome-, oak-, brain-tanned, etc? The leather comes out looking very very different, and white appears to be easier to approximate with brain tanned than say chrome tanned leather.

And the closest thing to a comment about a chain under 5k) jewelry is the "no Dark-Age Mr.T's please" comment. I doubt your SCA guys were wearing a Mr. T-like quantity of chains. If it would help I can point to period examples of chains.

I see several of what appear to be chapelle-de-fers and a clamshell gauntlet in the banner ad. Will these be acceptable at H2006?

[guthrothr]

Hi

these rules?
http://www.doomzone.de/projekte/hasting ... e=kitguide

Never seen that website before. But as it says at the top:

Norman Kit Guidelines For Hastings 2000 and probably also for 2006

The information it contains is a direct copy of the 2000 rules of which I was one of the primary authors. I personally wrote the entire Norman kitguide over the Christmas holiday 1997.

Didn't see anything about the color white under 5g) Belts and strap-ends

5g - copied in full below is quite clear on belt lengths and sizes.

5g) BELTS & STRAP-ENDS
Norman belts come in two distinct types. The first (the 'Soft' belt) would be very similar to that worn by most warriors already and be about the same length with strap-ends. The second (the 'Armour' belt) would have been worn over chainmail and would have helped carry the weight. For MILES and COMES however this 'overbelt' appears to have been dropping out of favour by 1066, and the sword was now being worn with just the hilt protruding through the hauberk at the hip. The belt must be between 20 and 35mm wide and 200 to 300mm longer than your waist and have both an authentic buckle and strapends. Although modern decorated belts are not acceptable, authentically decorated or painted sheaths, scabbards and belts are not only authentic but (for MILES and COMES) compulsory.

Could you explain how an SCA Knights belt fits this description ?

I'm curious about your standards for tannery process selection. Chrome-, oak-, brain-tanned, etc? The leather comes out looking very very different, and white appears to be easier to approximate with brain tanned than say chrome tanned leather.

Most of our leather is Veg tanned.

And the closest thing to a comment about a chain under 5k) jewelry is the "no Dark-Age Mr.T's please" comment. I doubt your SCA guys were wearing a Mr. T-like quantity of chains.

Taking a single line from a section is not really helpful so again the whole piece is repeated below.

5k) JEWELLERY. Contrary to popular belief, our dark-age ancestors did not wear vast amounts of jewellery. As Christians, they may have worn a cross or pendant of some sort and this might have a couple of beads on the same string. Brooches, cloak pins and finger rings were also quite common, and the richer the person, the larger the item, but no Dark-Age Mr.T's please.

Again I ask, how does an SCA Knights chain fit into this description ?

If it would help I can point to period examples of chains.

Huh ? Mid 11thC physical examples or illustrations showing their wearing by Englisc, Normans or Bretons ?
I would be very surprised if you could.

I see several of what appear to be chapelle-de-fers and a clamshell gauntlet in the banner ad. Will these be acceptable at H2006?

I suspect you already know that the answer, No.

What the site owner chooses to illustrate is up to them but I will spend the next 30 mins examining it using babelfish to get a feel for what this group normally re-create. I suspect that, like many groups, they will be getting new, mid 11thC, kit together specially for the H2006 event.

[Caithlinn]

Hi Guthrothr,

One of the people on the site is Gawan Dringenberg, who apparently was in charge of the "Franko-Flemish Kontingent" at Hastings2000.(?) Norman...

Let me know if you need help with translation (I'm in the UK now, so same time.....)

Caithlinn

[Garth]

Neither one are right for my persona. But I ain't giving them up.

If I can be excused the bluntness of this post, especially by you Garth, since you bought it up I'm going to use this thread to clarify an issue now, before it becomes a problem.

No offense taken Guthrothr. It sounds like it's already a problem though. I assure you when I step out of the SCA I will make great efforts to having a more period kit in all ways possible. Even my SCA kit will be very period- except for those two details.

When in the SCA, people should play by our rules. When in someone elses organization, people should follow *those* rules. At all times we should be striving for something better. Makes sense to me.

Garth

[Mord]

I have often been tempted to wear a plain brown or black belt and leave my white belt for ceremonial and battle field purposes (among other regalia).

I have a small, plain brass buckle (about 1/2 an inch) for such a purpose. Would that do?

Mord.

[Garth]

Friends,

What do you think of these two outfits?

These are "betas" for MD; the proper pouch and shoes are under construction still and not pictured.

Luciano is in the final stages of developing offerings for Swedish, Rus, and Lombard (also not pictured) lines of re-enactment supply and we're extremely interested in your informed opinions.

Thank you,
Karl

Karl,
They certainly are better than most off the shelf norse outfits. As a whole, they look pretty good as places to start. The first needs trim, belt decorations, and if the picture stones are to be believed, shorter pants. But all that can be done by the purchaser I'd guess. The Eastern fellow- the pants should probably be pleated and I thought that jacket was found with fake fur trim. A Viborg shirt (or square collar) would look better under the jacket to me (See Rollo's sometime!) but I can't say what you have there is not right.
Texture- it's tough to tell with the images there, but someone mentioned herringbone- that's good. Apparently solid color is better. Small houndstooth is also good, if I remember correctly.
Accessories! They will complete the outfits. See Sunnifa's stuff. (http://www.jomsb.org/)

Garth

[T. Finkas]

...As for the "Eastern Northan" (?) the Klappenrock construction doesn't seem to be in line with the evidence we know of (front pieces cut with the grain, not diagonally, it's the hem parts that are cut on an angle). The width of the trim would be ok if it wasn't white and just cloth trim, the fake fur borders found with the Klappenrock fragments were around 10cm wide. For Eastern I'd also rather use a Caftan than the Klappenrock...

Caithlinn,

I am trying to picture the coat as you are describing. Are you saying the flap-over should be straight---not angled---and that it's the hem that should be angled?

Would material from a Flokati rug be suitable for the fake fur?

Thanks,
Tim

[Endre Fodstad]

, and if the picture stones are to be believed, shorter pants. Garth

However, if the Skjoldhamn find is to be believed, the pants are fine (at least for 10th/11th century) -they are perhaps a bit too wide. They lack an inwowen band, though that would be rather expensive.

EF

[T. Finkas]

...Also, thank heaven, no Iron Age tablet-woven bands used as decoration...

Ooops! I thought tablet woven trim would be the way to go. That's what I used on my current tunic. What would be better?

...or the (likely unauthentic) contrasting twill weave in tunics...

That's where I am willing to stick my neck out a bit, for my own clothes that is. I understand there is evidence for use of bi-color weaves, so I am guessing this has not been ruled out, per se.

What about plaids or checks?

Thanks for the help!
Tim

[white mountain armoury]

Neither one are right for my persona. But I ain't giving them up.

Hi

If I can be excused the bluntness of this post, especially by you Garth, since you bought it up I'm going to use this thread to clarify an issue now, before it becomes a problem.

In 2000 an number of SCA folk attended the big Hastings re-enactment and all had a great time. They included 2 Dukes (from Atemveldt and The West) and a man who has since gone on to be King of Drachenwald.

Most of these people spent part of the weekend in awe of the event, and not only behaved impeccably but went home truly impressed with the way they were treated.

Two SCA Knights however caused The Vikings a deal of embarrasment and some subsequent problems by their refusal to obey event rules. Specifically, despite being asked nicely (twice), asked firmly, asked loudly and then being engaged in an argument with senior Vikings members, refuse point blank to remove grossly inappropriate and un-authentic items of 'garb' - specifically their White Belt and Chains.

In view of their behaviour, a firm decision has already been made regarding H2006, that if any SCA member repeats this behaviour they will have their event registration cancelled and be asked to leave the site.

SCA traditions and awards are rightly honoured and respected within the SCA environment, as are the rules laid down for SCA events. Guests are expected to adhere to these rules, even if they conflict with the way the guest behaves at an event run by their normal group.

For example, I have never asked the SCA to accept me at my Vikings rank, and have worn my symbol of office in a place where it is not displayed

Like I said, I'm sorry if this is a bit blunt, but anyone attending H2006 must be prepared to obey the event rules or not come at all.

I am enjoying this thread a great deal, but have little to offer, to busy taking it all in, but i am certainly sorry that folks from the sca could not manage to leave the trappings of the sca off the field and out of site, the society expects all attending our events to respect our rules, its a shame some were not able to respect the rules of a different organization, they were after all guests.

[Karl]

Hi everyone, thank you so much for the comments - we're definitely taking them all to heart. These are MD's first attempts at expanding the line. I'm bringing MD to the US this year for Pennsic and the line should include everything from Lombard to late 15th Italian and Burgundian.

On the herringbone we've bounced this around a lot - I'm a die-hard fabric guy but it's very, very expensive fabric. I've found handmade herringbones in natural wool and linens but they are close to $80 yd. MD will not source anything from India on principle and thus the fabrics are all made in Italy.

Here's a pic of the 100% linen herringbone:

http://home.fuse.net/medieval/DSCN0582.JPG

It's extremely strong fabric but I don't know if it is accurate. On my personal outfit I am going with wool herringbone to be safe.

My dear Guðroð I agree that the colors look off in the pictures. They appear too smooth and the hues are funny.

Luc is presently making me the "Northan" in an all-plain herringbone that I will dye myself here in the US using the dye chart from Regia (unless anyone else has any better ideas). I want to be ready for 2006.

Tim I just love that belt / pouch you made - if you ever want to make one on commission please, please, please let me know.

And yes, neck torcs (in my opinion) should be reserved for the "Enemies of Rome" re-enactors. I buy mine at The Hoard in the UK: http://thehoard.co.uk/page2.html

Warm regards and thanks again,
Karl

[Endre Fodstad]

Ooops! I thought tablet woven trim would be the way to go. That's what I used on my current tunic. What would be better?

Difficult to say; the Skjoldhamn tunic has no trim at all, as far as I remember, although it has a tablet woven trim woven into the lower parts of the pants; the trim isn't very decorative though; it has no real patterns, it is simply a 2cm wide band.
The Runestones are of little help (see below, it takes a bit of imagination to even determine sex. But notice their fine pointed beards!). The Oseberg weaving is even less naturalistic, and so on and so forth.

I don't use trim at all. Overall, I try to go for a non-gaudy style.

That's where I am willing to stick my neck out a bit, for my own clothes that is. I understand there is evidence for use of bi-color weaves, so I am guessing this has not been ruled out, per se.

There is, but most of the (few) finds are not bi-color.
Overall, there are so pathetically few viking age textile finds in the west: (and many of the eastern reported finds seem to have a knack for not turning up: at this point, I tend to assume that someone made it up if they present something weird and tell me "it's been found in Novgorod"...)
excepting the Skjoldhamn find and the Viborg shirt; of course. For example, the evidence for baggy pants in Ribe is a small 10x5cm piece of texile that looks like it's been made from two differently colored textiles; this is presumably the top of a set of baggy pants, but who knows?

EF

[Caithlinn]

Trying a few answers,

Tim, it's hard to picture, try to imagine a normal straight cut tunic or jacket and then angle the hem at a 60Ëš angle towards the center front
(I can't ascii for the life of me, but if you imagine the angle of the hem to be much more shallow it might work)
| | |
| | |
| | |
| | |
\ | /
\ | /
\|/

This includes a "possibility" of wearing the jacket crossing over the chest, in order to get the hem line straight, but you need to fold down the top part like a lapel. Clear as mud, right? Flokati trim would probably look the part, but wouldn't be the way the fake fur was made then (long tufts woven into the fabric).

Checked and plaid fabrics have been found (wool and linen) but not very often. There were plaid woolen fabrics (always twill, not tabby, but the other way round for linen) in Haithabu, but my books are on the Pacific, I don't know from the top of my head what garment they might have belonged to.....

Endre: do you have a reference for the Ribe find? The Haithabu pant fragments were two coloured (as in two different colored pieces of fabric seewn together) as well. Would be cool to have a regional support for that fashion... They weren't pleated though, but woven in a crepe weave which was achieved by a tight twisted warp and a loosely twisted weft, and maybe even a hot water treatment......

www.luitold.de has a few lovely wool twills ... site in German, though....

Hope this helps,

Caithlinn

[Rollo]

ummm... viking pants were not always tight fitted...
I give you two examples of straight legged pants, that are not tight fitting.

[img]http://jomsb.org/forum/bild_ire.GIF[/img]
[img]http://woodshed.wccnet.org/~mmclane/pants2.jpg[/img]
[img]http://woodshed.wccnet.org/~mmclane/pants3.jpg[/img]

I think the pants are just fine...

Rollo

[Endre Fodstad]

Endre: do you have a reference for the Ribe find? The Haithabu pant fragments were two coloured (as in two different colored pieces of fabric seewn together) as well.

No. The reason I do not is because I wrote Ribe when I meant Haithnabu...

[Garth]

I have often been tempted to wear a plain brown or black belt and leave my white belt for ceremonial and battle field purposes (among other regalia).

I have a small, plain brass buckle (about 1/2 an inch) for such a purpose. Would that do?

I too have considered this. Or rather, make the trappings more accurate. We don't have to rule out white belts completely so just make them look better. Metal ornaments on Norse belts was very common, if you put enough bronze on your belt you may not see white so much. And for heavens sake, don't leave your belt plain, even if you do change colors. The devil's in the details!

Sir Dirk weaves some beautiful knit wire chains that he *can* document to the time and place. (In silver anyway) I'm going to learn that so I'll have one to wear as well.

And the buckle- technically, yeah. But pound a few desings in, circle and dots, or file some lines- something. They decorated stuff. Where do people get the idea that everything was plain? Put a plate on it too, that will help and is very period. Just some thin brass sheet, about 4" long and a tounge slot cut in the middle. Stamp or cut a design in the top, fold over the bar and rivet the leather in.

Garth

[Caithlinn]

Bugger.... I was hoping....

Btw, forget the ascii..... I'm working from a mac, doesn't look like it likes it very much.....

Rollo, I know of those pictures for pants, but don't you reckon they are somewhat in between the two possibilities? I'd always thought to achieve this look, you need a bit more width....

I think what I am getting at is: if wider, make them wide enough so one can see, ah, wider pants (but not baggy yet....) And if fitted, make them fitted so they don't look baggy at all..... Get my drift? Hard to describe really, sorry if I make it even more confusing.

Cheers,

Caithlinn

[T. Finkas]

...Tim I just love that belt / pouch you made - if you ever want to make one on commission please, please, please let me know.

Thanks, Karl. I appreciate the encouragement. Wait until you see the next generation , I hope to have seal fur (or something else very nice) for the purse; and maybe twice as many of the narrow plates on the belt (like maybe 80 plates?).

Indeed, I might decided to start making the purses for sale since I have not seen any offered out there. I will announce it here if I do.

Sir Dirk weaves some beautiful knit wire chains that he *can* document to the time and place. (In silver anyway) I'm going to learn that so I'll have one to wear as well...

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/finkas/MyVikingChain.jpg[/img]

I bought an antique silver chain from Africa for the purpose (see above---coin is a quarter, for size reference). It's a interlocking mesh style in a herringbone pattern, approx 1 cm square in cross-section. It's very robust. I bought it because it seemed closest to woven mesh viking chains I had seen from archeologicals finds.

Skoal,
Tim

[kael]

on lamellar...

2. Krefeld-Gellup, Germany. Grave 2589, Frankish, 6th century. Ref. Pirling, 1986. Held: Landschaftsmuseums Burg-Linn, Krefeld Germany.

from http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisand ... ellar.html

I'm honestly not sure how credible these sources are, i'm usually a little sceptical of web-site info; but it is intriguing to see a source indicating a lamellar find in germany, much further west than i'd imagine (and much earlier).

If it is true, it may back up at least some suggestion of mercenaries etc from further east taking lamellar, adapting or 'borrowing' the design blah blah blah

Of course, it would still be extremely rare, so a line of viking re-enactors in england wearing it would be out of the question for any society. But on an infomation/education front, an example in a small group could definatly do no wrong.


A small side note: great topic

[Garth]

Cool chain Tim,
For Dirk's write up, check here:
http://www.jomsb.org/Dirk/Romersdal/Hammer.htm
then click the knitting link in the text for more info.

Garth

[Mord]

ummm... viking pants were not always tight fitted...
I give you two examples of straight legged pants, that are not tight fitting.

[img]http://jomsb.org/forum/bild_ire.GIF[/img]
[img]http://woodshed.wccnet.org/~mmclane/pants2.jpg[/img]
[img]http://woodshed.wccnet.org/~mmclane/pants3.jpg[/img]

I think the pants are just fine...

Rollo

These look like photos from the Gotland Stones--Check "Stone Ships and Symbols" by Nylam to find the date of the stone. Many Gotland Stones were pre-Viking. Also the Lindqvist "Gotlands Bildstinne."

Garth, I know something about belt decoration and about chains. PM me and I'll see if I can send you some stuff.

Mord.

[Ny Bjorn]

Christ on a bicycle Mord!
Lamm and Nylén wrote the first title and Lindqvist's books are called "Gotlands Bildsteine" 1 & 2.

Now - write it a hundred times before sunrise...

/N B

[James B.]

Two SCA Knights however caused The Vikings a deal of embarrasment and some subsequent problems by their refusal to obey event rules. Specifically, despite being asked nicely (twice), asked firmly, asked loudly and then being engaged in an argument with senior Vikings members, refuse point blank to remove grossly inappropriate and un-authentic items of 'garb' - specifically their White Belt and Chains.

Hmmm very sad. Some SCA folks will get on you if I came to an SCA event in a totally period kit with spurs and a period chain if it looks like the kind reserved for SCA knights because they expect you to play by their rules at their event yet these two people would not extend the same courtesy at another’s event? Shame on them. Besides being an SCA knight is meaningless outside the SCA.

And I have to say they must have looked like assholes with those glaringly wrong items on surrounded by so many that took great pride in doing things right.

[James B.]

Sorry hit reply not edit the first time.

[T. Finkas]

...SCA folks will get on you if I came to an SCA event in a totally period kit with spurs and a period chain if it looks like the kind reserved for SCA knights...

I have experienced the same, James. Only an HERALDIC type chain is reserved for Knights SCA (i.e. simple links like an anchor chain), yet some will make it their business to give you grief if you are a non-knight and are wearing any sort of jewelry chain (i.e. non-anchor chain types).

I don't get it.

Tim

[MariaAgrissa]

Trying a few answers,

This includes a "possibility" of wearing the jacket crossing over the chest, in order to get the hem line straight, but you need to fold down the top part like a lapel. Clear as mud, right? Flokati trim would probably look the part, but wouldn't be the way the fake fur was made then (long tufts woven into the fabric)...

Caithlinn

The Moshchevaja Balkan finds include a number of cross-over coats, some of linen and one remarkable one of figured silk. Some of the coats were lined with squirrel fur.

An earlier type of cross-over front coat was found at Antinoe, Egypt - these are believed to be Sassanid in origin, dated to the 6th or 7th century (depending on who you read). There is a clear connection between the Sassanid and the Byzantine fashions, and these coats are listed in the literary sources as being given each year to Byzantine soldiers, including the Varangians, annually.

You can find info on the M.B. finds in two books, one of which is easily bought (from the Metropolitan Museum of Art) if you are in the U.S.:

Metropolitan Museum Journal, Volume 36/2001 (still available on the Met's webpage store)

Anna A Ierusalimskaja, Die Graber der Moscevaja Balka: Fruhmittelalterliche Funde an der nordkaukasischen Seidenstrasse; Ed. Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, Munich, and State Hermitagr, Saint Petersburg. Munich, 1996.

There is a bibliography re: the Antinoe finds at our webpage - www.barhus.org (follow the link to "Mairi's Stuff").
Maria A.S.

[Ny Bjorn]

The Moshchevaya Balka caftans are quite different to the finds from Haithabu. The Hermitage's site have a good photo of one:here. (just click and zoom)

/N B

[T. Finkas]

Ha! That's funny because I had been contemplating making a Scythian "double-breasted" coat and using it for my Viking impression too. I'ts a funny note if they in fact are related somehow.

Tim