Late 15th C. garments over armour?

[WaaaghBoss]

This is an offshoot of the very informative "Angel Wing Surcoat" thread.

Just wondering if anyone has pics of garments worn over armour in the late 15th C. (specifically 1480-1490, 1485 being ideal). I have a small amount of reference material for this time, mostly concerning the WOTR. I don't believe I have any pictures of surcoats/gowns worn over amour.

I really like this look, and would like to make one to fit over my harness. Just not sure such a thing was still done at this late date.

The pictures in the other thread got me wondering.

Any help?

Thanks in advance!
~Kevin

[WaaaghBoss]

Oh, and in case it makes any difference my harness is German, C. 1485-1490. My portrayal is of an English knight (in German export harness), with a more English (coventry sallet).

[Orazio]

The only reference I know of is in Rene of Anjou's treatise on tourney-making. He says:

"The surcoat ought to be made like that of a herald, except that there should not be a pleat over the body, in order to better display the wearer's coat of arms."

There are some illustrations on this website:

http://www.princeton.edu/~ezb/rene/renehome.html

[WaaaghBoss]

I found this, although no specific date is given (just late 15th C.) they look to be fabric covered curaiss rather than a seperate surcoat... Not what I am looking for.

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/gallery/album44/a1_002

~Kevin

PS- anyone have a good image and or documentation for the Coventry sallet? I had a date of 1480 for it, but not sure if that is correct in my notes. It is the last piece of my harness that needs to be constructed and I want to make sure my homework is correct before I turn it in.

The sallet will be modified into a late style, per the Met sallet/close helm. The date they have is 1485-1495, but I want the visor in the coventry style (pierced occular rather than made from the opening between visor and helm bowl).
This is a much safer design for jousting, yet while closed looks just like a sallet w/ seperate bevor.
It will be mostly the same as the one here:
http://www.ageofarmour.com/instock/closesallet.html

[chef de chambre]

I found this, although no specific date is given (just late 15th C.) they look to be fabric covered curaiss rather than a seperate surcoat... Not what I am looking for.

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/gallery/album44/a1_002

~Kevin

PS- anyone have a good image and or documentation for the Coventry sallet? I had a date of 1480 for it, but not sure if that is correct in my notes. It is the last piece of my harness that needs to be constructed and I want to make sure my homework is correct before I turn it in.

The sallet will be modified into a late style, per the Met sallet/close helm. The date they have is 1485-1495, but I want the visor in the coventry style (pierced occular rather than made from the opening between visor and helm bowl).
This is a much safer design for jousting, yet while closed looks just like a sallet w/ seperate bevor.
It will be mostly the same as the one here:
http://www.ageofarmour.com/instock/closesallet.html

The Royal Armouries has a 'great sallet', with a pointed bowl, and an articulating bevor. See RA yearbook #7 (As I recall), for multiple pictures of it. It is missing it's visor, but I would use that as a model rather than using a mid 15th century sallet with demi-visor, and trying to bastardize it. It isn't 'Coventry Style' - I'd disabuse you of the notion to set up an entire style of helmet using a single example as a reference. The coventry hat you need to take a good look at, as it isn't what you are thinking it is, regarding the occularum

[chef de chambre]

This is an offshoot of the very informative "Angel Wing Surcoat" thread.

Just wondering if anyone has pics of garments worn over armour in the late 15th C. (specifically 1480-1490, 1485 being ideal). I have a small amount of reference material for this time, mostly concerning the WOTR. I don't believe I have any pictures of surcoats/gowns worn over amour.

I really like this look, and would like to make one to fit over my harness. Just not sure such a thing was still done at this late date.

The pictures in the other thread got me wondering.

Any help?

Thanks in advance!

Das Mittlealteres Hausbuch would be a place to start (forgive my butchering of the German and leaving off umlauttes). There are a number of paintings/illuminations showing gowns worn over harness, mostly Continental sources.
~Kevin

[WaaaghBoss]

The Royal Armouries has a 'great sallet', with a pointed bowl, and an articulating bevor. See RA yearbook #7 (As I recall), for multiple pictures of it. It is missing it's visor, but I would use that as a model rather than using a mid 15th century sallet with demi-visor, and trying to bastardize it. It isn't 'Coventry Style' - I'd disabuse you of the notion to set up an entire style of helmet using a single example as a reference. The coventry hat you need to take a good look at, as it isn't what you are thinking it is, regarding the occularum

Jeffery Hedgecock has been kind enough to inform me regarding the coventry sallet. The pics I had were from the profile, and it does indeed look like the visor is one piece with the brow reinforce. I labelled the bookmark "Coventry sallet", but the link no longer works. It may or may not have been the actual Coventry Sallet. I know the Coventry is too early, just looking for pics of pierced visor sallets, and I thought (incorrectly) that the Coventry was of the style I was looking for.


As to the helm, I really like the sallet William Hurt made in the close helm style. He worked very closely with Tobias Capwell on the design. The safety issue for jousting is why the need for a one piece design. The only change I want made from the one linked above is a pierced visor. I have a specific reason for wanting my visor made like that: I am blind in my left eye and want the visor only pierced on the right hand side. I wear an eye patch when jousting (keeps dust out of my glass eye) and think the look will be properly intimidating.

~Kevin

[chef de chambre]

The Royal Armouries has a 'great sallet', with a pointed bowl, and an articulating bevor. See RA yearbook #7 (As I recall), for multiple pictures of it. It is missing it's visor, but I would use that as a model rather than using a mid 15th century sallet with demi-visor, and trying to bastardize it. It isn't 'Coventry Style' - I'd disabuse you of the notion to set up an entire style of helmet using a single example as a reference. The coventry hat you need to take a good look at, as it isn't what you are thinking it is, regarding the occularum

Jeffery Hedgecock has been kind enough to inform me regarding the coventry sallet. The pics I have are from the profile, and it does indeed look like the visor is one piece with the brow reinforce.

As to the helm, I really like the sallet William Hurt made in the close helm style. He worked very closely with Tobias Capwell on the design. The safety issue for jousting is why the need for a one piece design.

Yes, I think Toby used the great sallet I referenced as a model for William Hurt - the piece is not exactly unique, but almost so. It is the most complete example - the only other remaining example I can think of with a pointed bowl is missing visor and bevor, and has different bits associated with it in hard condition. Several are illustrated in what is known as the 'Beauchamp Pagent .

Glad to see Jeff let you know the visor is a lifting demi-visor, or ventaglia, rather than a full visor.

[WaaaghBoss]

Chef-

Once again, thanks for your help. Can you provide me any information on when (and where) the pierced style visors on sallets are most common? Like I said, I want that style, but not if it will be completely out of period. That there are no examples of the great sallet that have the visor intact could be helpfull or a hinderence, depending on your personal preference...

I want a helm that in all probability could have been. Not something that probably would not have been.

Cheers!
~Kevin

[chef de chambre]

Chef-

Once again, thanks for your help. Can you provide me any information on when (and where) the pierced style visors on sallets are most common? Like I said, I want that style, but not if it will be completely out of period. That there are no examples of the great sallet that have the visor intact could be helpfull or a hinderence, depending on your personal preference...

I want a helm that in all probability could have been. Not something that probably would not have been.

Cheers!
~Kevin

Glad to be of service.

I don't think piercing a visor is going overboard. If you visor of your great sallet (or close sallet - the English seeem to be using both terms) is more like a blunt armet visor, piercing isn't outlandishly incorrect. I think they begin showing up again, by the 1490's, but certain types of sallets are seen in the 1440's-70's with visors akin to bascinet visors with piercings. There are two 'bellows faced' visors. @ 1500, in the MET with piercings.

I know what you mean about the piercings, if they are well done, they improve my vision, although not to the same level as corrective lenses. The Philip the Fair sallet, which has a fixed bevor (more of a high gorget), and the type of armetish visor I am talking about, is @ 1490, and it has a pierced visor.