The Armour Archive

I am making a new thread for this topic. I saw that there was a curule chair topic posted, but I didn’t want to hi-jack Eamonn’s thread.

I present to you an “x-typeâ€Â

I am really interested in seeing manuscript illustration of a chair like this in the era from 1300-1400. I haven't found one yet and am anxious to see one.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

A couple images showing chairs of generally similar formcan be found here:

The Hague, Rijksmuseum. Meermanno-Westreeniaum, MS. 10.B23, fol, 2r (1371, the frontspiece)

"La Le'gende doree' Le Couronnement de le Vierge" BNF fr 242, fol. A. 1400

This general type of seat ( usually the back is higher) seens to shows up fairly often by the first decade of the 15th century.

Raimond,

NICE chair This definatly would not have hi-jacked my thread..It would have been good and still is good..And now onto the questions... from what info I have seen from some minitures and extant examples. I think your lines are great. Most that I have seen don't actually have a "back" to them untill late 15 C. to 16 C. time frame.

Bout the only thing I would change would be to remove the visual dowel from the center axis. Using a blind mortise would clean it up (imo).

Thanks for showing it. After seeing yours it makes me want to get busy with mine..

Sir Eamonn MacCampbell wrote:Thanks for showing it. After seeing yours it makes me want to get busy with mine.

Karen Larsdatter wrote:

Sir Eamonn MacCampbell wrote:Thanks for showing it. After seeing yours it makes me want to get busy with mine.

UHHMMM O.K. SERIOUS miss quote taken out of context...Karen you are an EVIL women to embarass me like this

O.K. I think I can stop laughing now...I was uuhhmmm refering to his chair ,very nice... and refering to getting some work done on my chair...

BTW Thanks again for showing the chairs from the Bildindex site..Now I just have to read German and I might be able to tell were I'm going in it...

Sir Eamonn MacCampbell wrote:BTW Thanks again for showing the chairs from the Bildindex site..Now I just have to read German and I might be able to tell were I'm going in it...

Well -- here's your road map. In addition to clicking any time you see the words Sammlungen and Kunstgewerbe (as mentioned in other blithersome postings), you're also on the lookout for Holz ('wood'), Möbel ('furniture'), and especially Sitzmöbel ('seat furniture' -- or rather, chairs).

I can (mostly) read German. Can't speak the language much (beyond a few select words and phrases, including "we play football with melons" and "Can you speak English?"). Can't necessarily understand it when I read it, either. But I can read it.

Raimond wrote:
If you could respond and answer the following questions:

1. Is it appropriate as a 14-15th century English chair?
2. Are the lines correct?
3. What do you think of it as an overall presentation?
4. What would you add/remove/change.

Raimond,

Nice job!!

From my study of this style of chair;

1. Mid 15th-early 16thC for this heavy a design in this style. Many extant pieces don't actually pivot. Movable furniture has to be convenient to move. What does that chair weigh, fifteen-twenty pounds?

2. Reproduction of the lines in this style is excellent. You might want to soften the edges a bit by rounding over. I don't recall quatrefoil decoration on this style of chair but it is pleasantly executed. It complements the piece.

3. Overall? Very good. I especially appreciate that you made the effort to pin M&T the joints. Too many repros are assembled with plugged screws.

4. Were I to make a chair in this style, :

Round over all edges, especially where leg and rails meet. Squarish projections are uncomfortable to fiddle with when seated for long periods, like say... court, mass, listening to your mother-in-law comment on your hobbies. Its a small functionality thing that is often overlooked when reproducing period seating. Harsh corners are generally rounded or chamfered for comfort and to reduce chipping. This stuff was meant to move around within a home or between residences. It tended to travel with its owner.

Dye the leather seat a brighter colour like red, burgundy or green. Perhaps a rich brown? Many extant pieces I've examined are aged to a very dark brown. This may indicate there was no dye, just a protective treatment with oil dressing for flexibility. Black leather is so overdone.
(But if it matches your decor, then good job!)

Decide whether the piece should be portable or not. If so, lighten up the legs a bit, maybe 20%. If it isn't intended for travel, don't bother articulating the legs. Many of these, especially ones this robust, only looked like the legs pivoted.

In all, congratulations on an excellent project. Well done!

The only thing I could add to that chair would be my butt! Well done bro I can't wait to sit on one!
Cheers,
Leo

I would have to agree on the leather color...that would probably look even better in a nice oxblood or dark brown.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Thanks to all of you for your responses.

Kel:

I made this chair, with six more just like it, as gifts to the Company for x-mas. Don’t tell Jehan. For all my research, I was damned if I could find a decent drawing, picture, or reproduction of a 14th century English chair. I have found that now matter how much research I do, it really comes down to studying as much as I possibly can, interpret it, then do it. 99/100 times the experience illuminates many unforeseen and troublesome events. (Why on earth would they do it that way?!?….. oh.) As of yet, no one seems to mind my mistakes.

Now that I have another research avenue (thanks Karen), I will make the Mark 2 chair. I am going to make another set of chairs in white oak or walnut in a non-folding style. I made these out of alder because I was unable to get sufficient quantities of 6/4 or 8/4 white oak in this tiny city of Las Vegas. You’d think a city of 1.5 million people within 3 hours of LA would have everything.

The whole of it does have a mild 1/8â€Â

Raimond,

I ran across this article while doing some research for my chairs. Think it might be what the Dr. ordered as far as finishes.

http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/arti ... shing2.htm

[quote="Raimond"]Thanks to all of you for your responses.

Kel:

I made this chair, with six more just like it, as gifts to the Company for x-mas. Don’t tell Jehan. For all my research, I was damned if I could find a decent drawing, picture, or reproduction of a 14th century English chair. I have found that now matter how much research I do, it really comes down to studying as much as I possibly can, interpret it, then do it. 99/100 times the experience illuminates many unforeseen and troublesome events. (Why on earth would they do it that way?!?….. oh.) As of yet, no one seems to mind my mistakes.

Now that I have another research avenue (thanks Karen), I will make the Mark 2 chair. I am going to make another set of chairs in white oak or walnut in a non-folding style. I made these out of alder because I was unable to get sufficient quantities of 6/4 or 8/4 white oak in this tiny city of Las Vegas. You’d think a city of 1.5 million people within 3 hours of LA would have everything.

The whole of it does have a mild 1/8â€Â

Raimond,

I am working on being out there some time soon after my deployment ends. This is a great thread now you need to share the scabard and plaque belts you made. I am sure people would love to see them as well.
(this is the part where all you other guys agree with me and pressure him into posting his other projects...)
I think you should show the Monastary as well, maybe in the interp section, since it is just the "cats ass!"
Miss ya bro,
Leo

Leo...nay...the monastary is made out of vaccum formed plastic...

Let us not make show of that. It was good in its time and indeed very worthy for certain purposes (like a ren faire where there is no real push for authenticity anyway and constant decisions by the management which impose a modern setting) but we should focus on more authentic things.

Kel, if you didn't know, Raimond is a member of the Compaignye du Chalis and will be at this LH event I am proposing for 2007. I think you would find him as good company as I do.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

I have gotta have the plans for this chair if at all possible!


That exact chair!


Pretty please with single-malt scotch on it?

I must have one


ok 4 but yall know what i mean

Raimond wrote:I agree with you, the exposed dowel is unattractive. I had actually planned to make an engraved cover for the pivot point, but have not come up with a design I like and that is appropriate. When I do I’ll post an update.

What about a quatrefoil engraving to match the backs?

http://image.ox.ac.uk/images/bodleian/m ... 4/138v.jpg

The king in the upper left picture could be sitting in a beastial version of this style of chain. It's hard to say since his cloak is in the way...

Bartok

dyeing leather with brazil wood or madder is really easy.

Teh brazil gives a nice cherry/deep pinkish red which is enriched with a treatment of beeswax and turps

teh madder is more of a browny red

both medieval leather dyes.

brazil wood alum and water bring to a hot simmer, let cool, put your leather into it.

same with madder.


when dry, dress with beeswax and (real) turpentine.

I did the above with two soft backed books for Hampton Court Palace a few weeks back.

Karen!

Which Bildindex is that a roadmap to? It looks invaluable...

And I can speak German

Cheers!

Jehan de Pelham wrote:I am really interested in seeing manuscript illustration of a chair like this in the era from 1300-1400. I haven't found one yet and am anxious to see one.

http://www.masterjoyner.com/chairssto.html

about 3/4 way down the page is a chair with this description:

<b>Medieval Folding Chair This chair is adapted from a small 13th century French ivory carving in the Walters Art Gallery in Baltimore showing a seated madonna and child.</b> Note the carved "thorn" stretchers between the front and back, and the three-toed lion's paw feet on all four legs. Shown in mahogany ($2,200.00 -- CH40). Seat can be leather (red, brown, or black), or supplied by the customer. 35"H x 27"W x 17"D. Shown with optional quatrefoil foot stool (special 1/2 off when purchased with chair). Also available in walnut; see price list.


Finnican:

I THOUGHT I had plans for the Dantesca style chair, but I only have plans for a Savoronala style (15th century scissor chair). HOWEVER I do have intentions on making one of these and then placing it in the product line for ABC ent.