The Armour Archive

Can any one tell me if the red cross of Saint George was displayed on other colours such as green when worn on clothing as instructed by the Black Prince or must it be on a white background? Any help on this would be much appreciated.

Maybe not "must be" in use, but in the heraldic sense the cross of St. George is by definition a red cross, throughout, on a white field.

My understanding is that during the late 14th century and through most of the 15th century, colored crosses were used to denote nationality. The crosses were the symbols of the nations' patron saint, thus red cross for England becouse of St. George, etc. Although not the full "heraldry" for George (as Konstantin states), it seems that the colored cross was sufficient to denote your nationality.

Gethin wrote:My understanding is that during the late 14th century and through most of the 15th century, colored crosses were used to denote nationality. The crosses were the symbols of the nations' patron saint, thus red cross for England becouse of St. George, etc. Although not the full "heraldry" for George (as Konstantin states), it seems that the colored cross was sufficient to denote your nationality.

In the 14th century perhaps - most definitely not in the 15th century. From Agincourt onward English forces outside of England are specified to wear the St. Georges cross on a white livery.

chef de chambre wrote:In the 14th century perhaps - most definitely not in the 15th century. From Agincourt onward English forces outside of England are specified to wear the St. Georges cross on a white livery.

Chef, what sources can I find that in?

Thanks for the replys guys.If troops were told to have the red cross on white livery, then they must be wearing something over their armour. Does this mean some kind of surcote ? We have all seen pics of red crosses on white akertons but I havent seen much of outer wear for non noble troops.

Benalishlancer wrote:

chef de chambre wrote:In the 14th century perhaps - most definitely not in the 15th century. From Agincourt onward English forces outside of England are specified to wear the St. Georges cross on a white livery.

Chef, what sources can I find that in?

Hi Kyle,

My library is in move process, and I currently have sporadic internet access - Prestwich footnotes some original ordinances, if youn have him to begion the search, as does Seward in his history of the 100 years w\ar.

Specific sources would be the oridinances issued by Henry V for the expedition covering Harfleur and Agincourt, and the ordinances issuing from Edward IV for his 1475 expedition - these general orders for national livery for foriegn expeditions are echoed across the 15th century, covering expeditions to Scotland as well as France.

Len -

I have not seen any evidence for the St. Georges cross specifically on white livery for the 14th century. Don't assume it was done during the 14th century phases of the 100 years war just because we have evidence from 1415 forward.

+++

Uniforms (colours - ???): infantry 1322, contingent from lands Queen Isabel's (200 men) 1327, military engineers 1333, 600 archers sir Thomas Ughtred’s 1335, London contingent 1334 + 1338, 60 sappers 1347.

Welsh + Cheshire + Flintshire soldiers: unoforms 1337, green and white cotecourtepiz + chaperons 1346 + 1347 + 1355 + 1356.

Red cross of St. George: arm bands with it (Welsh wars Edward I's), Crece 1346 (?), arms of St. George 1355.
Ordonnance 27.7.1385: un signe des armes de Seint George large (breast + back).
Large cross of St. George (breast and back): 1415, 1417, 1419 (band of Seint George).
Circa 1450-1453: short white jackets [1283, 1295, 1429] with red cross (breast and back). Or - multicoloured jackets with red crosses (sometimes with yellow trim).

+++

Years.
1283 castle garrison in Wales
1295 Norfolk levies
1429 army in France