Late Late 14th c Middle Europe-Silk fabrics-what choices?

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:14 pm

Dupioni, Habotai, and Noil...OH MY!
Chiffon, Crepe and Charmeuse ... OH MY!
Jacquard, Shantung and Tussah... OH MY #$*&(%^!!!!

Then there is Twill and broadcloth and georgette and organza.....

I know that noil is made of the slub and this was considered to be secondary and even tertiary, sometimes not even shipped far enough into Europe at all.

What would be an accurate silk to use? The research I have done lends to the tendency that the silk was of the satiny smooth and shiny appearance.

There are a number of silks that have that appearance. Will any of them work, or are there some that are just not right?

Inquiring minds want to know!

(psst - thanks for any assistance!)

Brian W. Rainey · Post by **Brian W. Rainey** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:16 pm

You SOOOOO need to take me shopping with you. I know the greatest open air markets in Italy for silks and brocades.

You pay for us to fly, I'll take you to places to buy. We only need to stop by Catania, Roma and Firenza. We coul do a whirlwind tour in a week or so.... with time for a few dozen espresso!

If you want to see what "natural" silk fabrics look like... we have piles of it at the house. It is much more rough in texture than the very fine shiny stuff today. We have been told by Italian tailors that it is more in line with what was used early on in Europe. Not sure if it goes back to the late 14th century.

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:33 pm

Brian W. Rainey wrote:You SOOOOO need to take me shopping with you. I know the greatest open air markets in Italy for silks and brocades.

You pay for us to fly, I'll take you to places to buy. We only need to stop by Catania, Roma and Firenza. We coul do a whirlwind tour in a week or so.... with time for a few dozen espresso!

If you want to see what "natural" silk fabrics look like... we have piles of it at the house. It is much more rough in texture than the very fine shiny stuff today. We have been told by Italian tailors that it is more in line with what was used early on in Europe. Not sure if it goes back to the late 14th century.

Would be a lovely trip to Italy, I must say, but I would rather have a roof than a trip to Italy about now (found out that I have to do a full roof removal, I cant just add a layer - there are already 3, which is no longer within IL code

)

Would love to see some "natural" silks - We will have to work a time when we are both free on a weekend - I am booked up for the next two.

BTW, give the three lovely ladies in your house hugs n such for me and send my hellos!

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:12 am

Any idea if the italian tailors actually know what they are talking about? I've met a lot of modern blacksmiths who haven't a clue about medieval smithing but are quite willing to project modern materials and methods backwards...or perhaps worse propound the it must be crude and poorly made cause it's medieval line!

Thomas

brunoG · Post by **brunoG** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:23 am

There is a nice italian website by a graduate in ancient fashion, she lives in Central Italy

http://www.terradigrazia.com

Look at her reconstruction of medieval robes, they are great.

Do not expect cheap prices, they are however good if you take into account the kind of fabrics she uses.

In Italy we still have velvets and embroidered fabrics that are made according to medieval and later classical patterns , especially in Florence you can still find the silk and the velvet ones as they were worn by noblemen.

Italian tv has shown a florentine factory were they use old silk looms which design is again ancient, they are operated by chosen local women.

Again, pricey stuff.

My wife has bought some square pieces, big enough to cover a cushion, as many italian housewives still do.

Obviously this cushions are not for seating upon ...

Brian W. Rainey · Post by **Brian W. Rainey** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:05 am

Thomas Powers wrote:Any idea if the italian tailors actually know what they are talking about? I've met a lot of modern blacksmiths who haven't a clue about medieval smithing but are quite willing to project modern materials and methods backwards...or perhaps worse propound the it must be crude and poorly made cause it's medieval line!

Thomas

Thomas,

As Bruno pointed out... fabrics that have carried similar characterstics for centuries are still readily available. Not cheap unless you get the remnants in the open markets, though.

My understanding from talking to different sources locally (Sicily) is that the fabrics really have not changed much. You can still get cut velvets and brocades with patterns that source directly to historical documentation (paintings, tapestries, etc).

Quite the treasure trove for the reenactor/buyer, no doubt.

The tailors might not know what they are talking about. However, we were able to almost directly match patterns and the appearance of the cloth textures to artistice sources.... so I don't think they are too far off.

Italy is a phenominal place.... sigh. I REALLY miss it. :cry:

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:36 am

I *NEVER* said they were not available---where the heck do you get that from?

What I said is that it's wise to be cautious about advice from people who may not know what they are talking about. How many of us have run into museum tour guides that spout off the most outrageous rubbish about the medieval/renaissance period? Even the Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages (with Cantor's name on it no less!) has compleatly bogus info about armour in it.

Thomas

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:03 pm

So.... what type of modern silk would best mirror the look (sheen, drape, etc....) of the historic silks?

I have done a bit of research myself and everything I am finding says that almost all of the silk in Europe in the 14th and 15th century came from China. Italy really did not start until the 16th century, in any real quanity.

So, am I lookin for habotai or jacquard or shantung or something else?

Karen Larsdatter · Post by **Karen Larsdatter** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:32 pm

Wulfe wrote:So.... what type of modern silk would best mirror the look (sheen, drape, etc....) of the historic silks?

IMO, taffeta.

Wulfe wrote:I have done a bit of research myself and everything I am finding says that almost all of the silk in Europe in the 14th and 15th century came from China. Italy really did not start until the 16th century, in any real quanity.

Really? Umm ... I'd wonder about the veracity of your research sources, then. Italy would have had a strong silk industry going by the 14th century. There were also silk industries in France, England, and Germany (though the latter two are stronger starting in around the 15th century).

For a late 14th century example of Italian silk (probably from Lucca), see V&A 146-1891. Bildindex also has some pre-16th century European silk fabrics as well, though I'll have to go back through my notes at home to get you the exact URLs.

(The silk fabric on the Charles de Blois pourpoint, on the other hand, is thought to have been made in Persia.)

In the meantime, check out some of the links at http://moas.atlantia.sca.org/wsnlinks/i ... &catid=572

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:54 pm

Karen Larsdatter wrote:
Wulfe wrote:So.... what type of modern silk would best mirror the look (sheen, drape, etc....) of the historic silks?

IMO, taffeta.

Wulfe wrote:I have done a bit of research myself and everything I am finding says that almost all of the silk in Europe in the 14th and 15th century came from China. Italy really did not start until the 16th century, in any real quanity.

Really? Umm ... I'd wonder about the veracity of your research sources, then. Italy would have had a strong silk industry going by the 14th century. There were also silk industries in France, England, and Germany (though the latter two are stronger starting in around the 15th century).

For a late 14th century example of Italian silk (probably from Lucca), see V&A 146-1891. Bildindex also has some pre-16th century European silk fabrics as well, though I'll have to go back through my notes at home to get you the exact URLs.

(The silk fabric on the Charles de Blois pourpoint, on the other hand, is thought to have been made in Persia.)

In the meantime, check out some of the links at http://moas.atlantia.sca.org/wsnlinks/i ... &catid=572

So something like this:

[img]http://www.denverfabrics.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/19000/19142-600.jpg[/img]

or this:

[img]http://www.denverfabrics.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/19000/19139-600.jpg[/img]

would be what I am looking for, then?

Karen Larsdatter · Post by **Karen Larsdatter** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:51 pm

Yeah, that's the sort of fabric I'd be looking at (if I were looking for real modern silk that re-creates the look of medieval silk).

My map to Bildindex points out a couple of sections that have silk fabrics. (Let me know if you want a guide to the map, because it's only slightly less confusing than Bildindex itself. And maybe I should throw it on my website somewhere, so I don't have to go looking for it.)

In any case, it looks like the Bildindex section for the Museum fÃ¼r Angewandte Kunst (in Cologne) has your best bet for finding photos of extant samples of 14th century silk fabric. To get to that section:

From the top bar, click Orte.
An alphabet will appear in the side frame. Click the letter K.
Scroll down to KÃ¶ln and click on that.
Click on Sammlungen.
Click on Museum fÃ¼r Angewandte Kunst.
Click on Kunstgewerbe.
Click on Textil.
Click on Seidengewebe.
Click on 14. Jahrhundert.

Examples there are mostly Italian, with a few from Spain, and one from Persia.

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:42 pm

Karen Larsdatter wrote:Yeah, that's the sort of fabric I'd be looking at (if I were looking for real modern silk that re-creates the look of medieval silk).

My map to Bildindex points out a couple of sections that have silk fabrics. (Let me know if you want a guide to the map, because it's only slightly less confusing than Bildindex itself. And maybe I should throw it on my website somewhere, so I don't have to go looking for it.)

In any case, it looks like the Bildindex section for the Museum fÃ¼r Angewandte Kunst (in Cologne) has your best bet for finding photos of extant samples of 14th century silk fabric. To get to that section:
From the top bar, click Orte.
An alphabet will appear in the side frame. Click the letter K.
Scroll down to KÃ¶ln and click on that.
Click on Sammlungen.
Click on Museum fÃ¼r Angewandte Kunst.
Click on Kunstgewerbe.
Click on Textil.
Click on Seidengewebe.
Click on 14. Jahrhundert.
Examples there are mostly Italian, with a few from Spain, and one from Persia.

Many, many thanks Karen.

Brian W. Rainey · Post by **Brian W. Rainey** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:39 pm

Thomas Powers wrote:What I said is that it's wise to be cautious about advice from people who may not know what they are talking about.
Thomas

And I answered you in my reply.

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:50 pm

I also recall readinhg about how Merchant class itailians may have worn dupioni. This of course means it is not good for people portrayting nobles (as in the SCA).

IMHO, the following silk types would eb appropriate, or terribly close-

Taffeta
Silk satin
Heavy Habotai (12+ mome)
Non slubbed Tussah
And of course brocades, samites and the like

The things you are looking for are: Smooth texture (no slubs), slight sheen, and crisp feel.

That's just my opinion.

-+G