The Armour Archive

Hi all,
I've got some questions about hoods and their use in the latter half of the 14th century.
-who wore them- peasants or nobility? I'm thinking both.
-were dags a sign of rank or social class?
-were they ever made from fancy brocade fabrics? what about leather?
-when were tippets in use until?
-were they ever worn in layers? like an upper layer say yellow with dags, then an under lower edge with dags in say red color? does this make sense?

Thank you,

Aaron

Answers below are based largely on my hoods linkspage, http://www.larsdatter.com/hoods.htm

Armoured Air Bear wrote:-who wore them- peasants or nobility? I'm thinking both.

They seem to appear on both at various points in the 14th century.

Armoured Air Bear wrote:-were dags a sign of rank or social class?

Not as far as I can tell.

Armoured Air Bear wrote:-were they ever made from fancy brocade fabrics? what about leather?

No artifact evidence for either in the 14th century, as far as I know -- just wool.

However, I believe there is some descriptions of silk hoods in period documents. There is a hood depicted on the rack in an illustration for the properties of silk clothing in a 15th century manuscript of the Tacuinum Sanitatis, for example. (Personally, my hair goes all crazy-staticky when I try wearing any sort of silk headcovering; I've also taken to lining my wool hoods with matching linen to avoid some of the static frizzies. My husband, on the other hand, has no problem wearing a wool hood directly on his hair, but his hair's a lot shorter than mine.)

There's also literary descriptions of fantastically-embroidered hoods, like the one in Meier Helmbrecht. Whether these actually existed (since they only seem to appear as extraordinarily fantastical examples in literature, but not so much in illustrations or artifacts) is debatable, but they certainly don't seem to be common, in any case.

Armoured Air Bear wrote:-when were tippets in use until?

It depends on what you mean by "tippets." If you mean the long tail on the back end of a hood, they appear throughout the 14th century, but have various shapes and lengths at different times. Again, see http://www.larsdatter.com/hoods.htm for examples. I would expect to see a shorter tippet at the beginning of the 14th century (like Der Kol von Nüssen in the Manesse Codex) and much longer & thinner tippets at the end of the 14th century.

Armoured Air Bear wrote:-were they ever worn in layers? like an upper layer say yellow with dags, then an under lower edge with dags in say red color? does this make sense?

The description makes sense, but no, I've never seen any examples along those lines (with dags of different colors by layer).

There are two main color variations that seem to come up in the 14th century: contrasting linings (like these illustrations from The Romance of the Rose or The Luttrell Psalter), or particolor (especially prevalent in The Romance of Alexander). There's also a few examples in The Romance of Alexander in which the hood seems to be made of a plaid fabric.

Thanks for the help! I must be blind- I went to your site before I posted this because I remember a section on hoods, but I didn't see it there the other day- weird .

About the multi layered effect, there is a painting in a book about illuminations that I have that shows it. both layers are the same color, but I think that it's early 15th century though. but do you think that this would be plausable?

Also you think that leather would be plausable? I think it would definetley stand up to a lot of weather... so I'm thinking that it would work. What do you all think?

Thanks,

Aaron

Excellent resource, Karen!
I think you should be a bit creative, Aaron. Despite the way Hollywood depicts the 14th cen, people tended to be more flamboyant then wearing brown burlap with loose thongs holding bits of faric together.
I'm obviously not a history nazi (I sew all of my clothes with a Wards sewing machine), but I don't think anyone would fault you for being a little creative with your hood, by layering it and parti-coloring the layers.

I've seen leather hoods in the movies, which is not exactly a ringing endoursement. I know that jacks were often deerskin exterior shells to resist puncturing from arrows. Leather wasn't scarce, but I have a feeling you might find issues with a leather hood that will only be evident once you invest in it.

I made a leather coif, despite having zero evidence that any such item was ever worn. The problems I noticed were 1) it's hot 2) the leather hanging down over the ears was a sound deadener. It made people talking near me sound like I had my head in a box and 3) supple leathers were either often oiled vegetable tanned or towed. The spanish I understand may have used urine to tan hides...None of these sound very appealing to sit on my noggin. The leather coif I made was chrome tanned, which wasn't a period process. In any case, a hood of leather sounds expensive to me (if using deerskin).

I made a hood in linen using the Herjolfnes 78 pattern, parti colored it but also made a wavy border on the skirt. It's self lined with the alternate color, so that the head opening, when cuffed back adds to the counterchanged appearance. (pictured is the white side w/blue trim)
I read somewhere that dags were more of a continental style (representing foliage), not so much worn by the English that did tend to wear embattled edges. Don't quote me on that though, because I can't remember where I read it, and it may have been a Osprey book, which sometimes is as accurate as hollywood.

-Cian

Thanks for the help.

I think that I'll make one leather hood-just for the heck of it. I am a period nazi but ya know I'm really goning to look into the evidence for leather hoods. I think that they could have existed.

Definetley gonna try the multi layered effect too.

as for deerskin being too expensive- yes it is, but I've found a substitute for it. there is now deer-tanned cow hide. so it's cows hide tanned like deer so it looks/feels the same but without the smae price.


Thanks,

Aaron

Just an observation- One can be historical--or not. Just like Robin Williams' character in 'The Fisher King' who gives the advice 'you're either a smoker, or you're not. Decide which you are and just be it'.

You can be historical, and follow the historical evidence. Then you can tell people what you're doing is historically based with a good conscience.

Or, you can do what you please, using movies or your imagination for your inspiration. Then you're a costume designer and you can't in good conscience tell people that what you're doing is historical.

So it might be prudent to think about what you are in your heart- are you a 'period nazi', or are you a costume designer? Decide which you are and just be it. It will save you a lot of angst in the long run.

Just my opinion.

Gwen

I'll put it a little more bluntly.

Somebody who is interested in history does not come up with a "cool idea", and then try to backwards document it. The entire attitude of that practise is patently showing no interest in history at all - despite whatever protestations to the contrary.

I put "cool idea' in quotes, because a leather hood isn't a cool idea, it is a stupid one. People wore hoods for warmth and comfort. A leather hood is much more exxpensive, and less comfortable, and less efficient at the task a hood exists for. Anyone spending more money for a hood, would spend it on richer fabric historically - not on creating an inefficient and unfashionable monstrousity.

This particualr forum exists for Historical Reseach, not costume design. You would get more out of it approaching it as a research tool, than as you are using it now. I no longer frequent this forum precisely because it has devolved into catering to such eccentricities.

'Nuff said.

I'm a bit less cynical about it. I think people stray from the path of historical accuracy because of a lack of knowledge.

History shows us that since earliest times men have covered themselves with clothing. Initially protection from the elements, the changing shape of clothing shows that protection is not the only goal.

Clothing functions to change the shape of the body beneath in an outward expression of individual within. The cut, material, colour and decoration of clothing makes a statement of the wearer’s age, wealth, social position, sexuality and social affiliation.

Most people are unfamiliar with historical styles. They have a cool idea of something they'd like to have, like a leather hood. The idea for the hood comes from a combination of things they may not even be aware of- revelvance to other, more familiar colours (the colour black), materials (leather, because it reminds one of a favorite jacket) or cut (a hat that looks like a baseball cap). They don't have a broad knowledge or understanding of the clothing from the period, so they're unaware of historical alternatives which might fill their internal needs as well as the item they've dreamed up.

Aaron wants a cool hood to express his individuality. He's new to the game, so he doesn't know that amazingly cool hoods like this exist:

The Orkney Hood



OK, so the Orkney hood isn't late 14th C, it's 250 - 615 AD. But it is cool, right? Knowing that such a cool hood existed and that the idea of a decorated bottom edge existed since the Iron Age might give him some more info to go on. Aaron's a clever lad, he'd notice that the hood is made of wool, not the leather one might expect from an Iron Age find. If he had more knowledge, he'd think "Hmm, the Tollund man was wearing a leather hat, but this hood is made of wool, and they're from the same period. Maybe leather hats were OK, but leather wasn't used for hoods." Another light bulb moment for Aaron.

With any luck at all, Aaron's going to go to Karen's page and have a look around at styles from the period he likes, and maybe another hood will catch his eye. Armed with the knowledge that hoods were most likely made of wool, and the desire to do something historical, he'll find a hood in the examples that is cool -and- historical.

Maybe I'm a Pollyanna and naive about what motivates people, but my experience is that sometimes people make ahistorical choices because they have not thought about their goals in what they're doing, or they don't have enough information.

Like I said Aaron, decide what you want to be, and just be it. The rest will fall in behind your decision.

Gwen

I still say, if you do SCA, and just are dying to have a leather hood, then do it. But I think you'll regret it later. I have a black swan hood of wool, and in 85+ degree temps, it's hotter then satan's pitch fork (not really, but it's still hot), but I love the way it lays. I succumed to comfort and made the linen hood (periodness be damned. Let the history nazi's die of heat stroke.) It still looks better then my friend's green no-pill flannel hood.

Offtopic:
Gwen, does black swan have a medium (royal) blue wool for hosen? I own 2 pairs of hose, but they are getting worn, and will need more soon. Totally don't dig the green (but they are the boiled wool and are holding up very well.) The denim woven wool are too dark and wore quickly. Also, what color is the pearl like? Can you do parti-colored joined hosen (each leg colored different)? Can you email or pm me?
Black Swan does kick-butt hosen. Just saying.
-Cian

You are all so right. I need to make up my mind. I'll defenetley be choosing accuracy. I don't think up a "cool idea and just go for it. the leather hood- a couple weeks back I looked through some pics online and I saw what I thought might just be a leather hood. it did turn out to be a reproduction that was aged, and eaten away (to show even more aging) so I thought to just ask if they actually did exist.

I think my problem is-like Gwen said:I'm pretty new to this and I don't know of all of the things that did exist. Also though I don't want to look like the average 14th century person out there. I want all of my items to be unique- while still being accurate.

I think the reason I want to be so differnet is because I make most of what I use, and since I make most of it, I feel the need to always "add" some extra little flair to it.I love doing all the crafts that I do and I almost look for reasons to add that little bit extra. I think sometimes that little "extra" can make or break a peice, but if I really want to add it I'm going to back it up with evidence/proof that it did exist. (rather for all historical things for my kit that I make)

So I'm going to just skip the leather hood. I will try and scan an image of the painting with the multi layered effect though.

Thank you all for helping me with this,

Aaron

BTW Gwen- cool hood.

Air Bear and All,

Unlike shoes, thousands of which exist, we just don't have a large enough group of existing hoods to make really precise statements about minor fashion details. What we do have are lots of pics and a few related garments that show the general fashion and construction methods of the times. When I make garments I use the available data to put limits on what I believe was worn. With hoods that leaves plenty of variation in colors and fashion style. It should not be difficult to make a hood within the known variation that is both historic and pleases ones fashion sense.

Exactly!

Gwen

Armoured Air Bear wrote: I want all of my items to be unique- while still being accurate.

I don't know that this is possible. Actual unique stuff would be rare. If everthing thing is truly unique it wouldn't be all worn at the same time. Doing it that way would be historically inaccurate. I really think the best way to be unique in the SCA is to have impeccably researched stuff from the same time period and place that represents the typical of the culture. The fact everyone wants to be different is evidenced by our name usage (which I'm guilty of ) there should be alot more Johns and Marys and alot fewer Petranellas. Have the courage to be typical and you will stand out because of it.

If you want to be unique, copy one of the hoods from Gaston Phoebus, the ones that have a dagged strip front and back and are plain on the sides. Unique, documentable, dead center of the period you want to do and I've never seen anyone replicate one.

Have a look at the dude in the lower left to see what I mean. This outfit rocks (in my opinion )



Gwen

Black Swans,
I agree! The hoods worn as hat in the upper portion of the pic are quite nice also.

Air, check out the MOL book on textiles. There are some pics and existing fragmentary examples shown for the 14th century that could be good starting points.

Re: layering of hoods (with the top one being dagged) - especially when both "layers" are the same color?? It is my belief that what you are seeing is an artist's depiction of embroidery.

Once you start looking for embellishment on the hoods - you'll begin to see more and more of it in the illuminations. Worn both by lower/mid classes and also by nobility. There are many, many descriptions of embroidered hoods for men and women in the most wonderful book (recommended to me, by Tasha) "Dress in Mediaeval France" by Joan Evans.

Muriel

Karen Larsdatter wrote:(Personally, my hair goes all crazy-staticky when I try wearing any sort of silk headcovering; I've also taken to lining my wool hoods with matching linen to avoid some of the static frizzies. My husband, on the other hand, has no problem wearing a wool hood directly on his hair, but his hair's a lot shorter than mine.)

Have you tried not washing you hair for a few days beforehand?

Charlotte J wrote:

Karen Larsdatter wrote:(Personally, my hair goes all crazy-staticky when I try wearing any sort of silk headcovering; I've also taken to lining my wool hoods with matching linen to avoid some of the static frizzies. My husband, on the other hand, has no problem wearing a wool hood directly on his hair, but his hair's a lot shorter than mine.)

Have you tried not washing you hair for a few days beforehand?

ewwwwhhhhh

Karen, there are some juicy descriptions of royal clothing with extreme embroidery on hoods from wardrobe accounts (forest scenes, trees and all) in FitAotBP, and like Muriel mentioned, in Joan Evan's book. Of course, you're looking at the highest end of fashion, very rare.

Unfortunately for us 14thc folks, the surviving Phebus Hunting Book illuminations are all early 15th century, not late 14thc. Confusion comes from the understanding that the hunting book was written by Phebus in the late 14thc, but illuminated copies contemporary with the original writing?... so far not found, AFAIK. I still think it's an awesome look to recreate and we don't get enough of that time period visually represented in LH or SCA circles.

-Tasha

In "A Visual History of Costume The Fourteenth & Fifteenth Centuries" by Margaret Scott, there is an amazing illumination on pg. 60 - Now - granted, it's an arly 15th c illumination (French) - but it clearly shows a wonderful dagged and embroidered hood on John the Fearless, Duke of Burgundy. AND the embroidery more matches some of the yummy descriptions in the FitAotBP and Dress in Mediaeval France (Joan Evans). It's embroidered along the bottom "band" of the skirt with vines and carpenter's planes - and the embroidery is made to mimic the pattern on his houpeland (not sure if the houpelande is embroidered or a brocade - my assumption is that his houpe is a brocade and hood is embroidered to match).

Thank you all for your help with this subject. I have the Gaston Phoebus book (I love it BTW) and I never thought of making one of those hoods.-but Tasha brings up a good point of the dat of the book.

and whoa crazy I just recieved FItAotBP in a shipment of books that I ordered. great timing

I'm going to try and scan an image of the layered hood again tonight (I'll see if it works-I'm not good with computers ) granted it is 15th cent if I'm not mistaken, but I'd still like for you all to see it.

Thanks again,

Aaron

Just nudging this topic up to the top again for Aaron to give us the scan he promised. We needs it.... precious....

Tasha - Off hand can you narrow down that timeline on the illuminations from Gaston Phebus? I am interested in early fifteenth century stuff and hadn't realized that the illos were not 14th c.

What is the earliest that they could be portraying and what is the latest?

Thank you
Captain Jamie

Thank you for reminding me about that- I forgot I'm trying to scan/take a picture of it but my computer is being really weird. So I'll look for it online and I'll continue to try and scan it in.

for those of you with this book if you could copy this image and post it it would be very much appreciated. it's in a book called:

Masterpieces of Illuminations (The world's most beautiful illuminated manuscripts from 400 to 1600 BY: Ingo F. walther / Norbert wolf

the "double edged" hood is on a painting on page 266 in the bottom left corner. it's of John the Fearless, Duke of Burgundy.

I'll look for it online and try and get a link to it. it's a really awesome hood IMO (It may be more of a mantle- I can't tell I still think it's a hood though)

Aaron

Captain Jamie wrote:Tasha - Off hand can you narrow down that timeline on the illuminations from Gaston Phebus? I am interested in early fifteenth century stuff and hadn't realized that the illos were not 14th c.

What is the earliest that they could be portraying and what is the latest?

Thank you
Captain Jamie

The Bibliotheque Nationale dates MS Français 616 (the manuscript most of us are familiar with as "the one we all see in the books") to "early 15th century".

If I had to guess, I'd say between 1400 and 1420. Just taking a guess there, that's not gospel.

-Tasha

1407 on Gaston Phoebus, so Tasha is correct in pointing out that it isn't 14th C. I guess I got sidetracked by the fact that Aaron was looking for a unique hood. Sorry about that.

Gwen

Hey Aaron, if you thought you were shooting for late 14th but fell in love with the Gaston Phebus look and that wacky hood, then there's no Mafia telling you that you can't do it 'cause it's not 14thc, right?

....What?

There is a Mafia, you say? *looks over shoulder*

But anyway, more folks should do the early 15thc, sez I! It's a gorgeous time material culture-wise, and fascinating in the historical context too. All kinds of weird "are we English? are we French?" things happening, and look at the weird-looking hoods you could make!

-Tasha

I really do like those funky hoods, but I'd also really like to stay true to my time. is there any evidence showing them being worn late 14th cent?

I'm trying to get my scanner to work for that pic. still trying- I would like for you all to see it as it's freakin awesome.

Thanks,

Aaron