Stoopid 14th c questions
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Stoopid 14th c questions
If I wanted to joun the 14th C mafia... or you know... just be a poseur...
My bottom half would be covered with:
Brais: Basicly linnen boxers with a drawsting
Hosen: Thigh/crotch high wool or linnen socks
I cut these at a 45 degree angle to the weave of the material right?
How do I keep them hootched up so me bum don't show (because really you don't want to see that)
Turnshoes: of a modest pointy toe, possibly with pattens
yes? no? maybe?
My bottom half would be covered with:
Brais: Basicly linnen boxers with a drawsting
Hosen: Thigh/crotch high wool or linnen socks
I cut these at a 45 degree angle to the weave of the material right?
How do I keep them hootched up so me bum don't show (because really you don't want to see that)
Turnshoes: of a modest pointy toe, possibly with pattens
yes? no? maybe?
It looked better in my head....
Damnit.
Damnit.
- Jehan de Pelham
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Your torso garment should be long enough to cover your underwear.
If you have the dreaded "diapey-butt," make your cotte longer.
John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
If you have the dreaded "diapey-butt," make your cotte longer.
John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
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- Karen Larsdatter
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Re: Stoopid 14th c questions
Check out http://larsdatter.com/hose.htm for pictures of how the hoses are enhootched.
- Maelgwyn
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Thanks Karen! The link in "The Romance of Alexander (Bodl. 264), 1338-1344: Good detail of the attachment of men's hose in fol. 90v" needs a period before the file type. It should read "http://image.ox.ac.uk/images/bodleian/m ... 64/90v.jpg"
- Cian of Storvik
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Like others have said. Your top garment will cover your braies (you hope), or if you're very shy, you can get joined hosen, but they're not as comfortable/cool in warm climates as chausses, and they're about twice as expensive.
Mid to 4th quarter of the 14th century, you can wear a cotehardie like this handsome devil. 14th century is just great. You also have the option of tunics.
Mid to 4th quarter of the 14th century, you can wear a cotehardie like this handsome devil. 14th century is just great. You also have the option of tunics.
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Thanks for the info guys. Much appreciated.
The gist of this is soft kit for under armor...
Would it be entirely messed up to quilt padding into my brais? Thing is, the cuisses I'm building are going to be more than sufficient (if not overkill) for the lower thigh. Knees will get padded on their own, greaves will probably be minimal padding, or I might just do wool chauces to get around that. But there is a knight in the local group well known for throwing wrap shots to the most un-armored of hineys, and it smarts, and I'm not into that....
Probably be better to make some padded shorts, and wear them under the brais yeah?
The gist of this is soft kit for under armor...
Would it be entirely messed up to quilt padding into my brais? Thing is, the cuisses I'm building are going to be more than sufficient (if not overkill) for the lower thigh. Knees will get padded on their own, greaves will probably be minimal padding, or I might just do wool chauces to get around that. But there is a knight in the local group well known for throwing wrap shots to the most un-armored of hineys, and it smarts, and I'm not into that....
Probably be better to make some padded shorts, and wear them under the brais yeah?
It looked better in my head....
Damnit.
Damnit.
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- mephit
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A correction, if I may.....
To the good gentle who stated the Blois cote has five pairs of points inside, this is incorrect. It has seven. One on each of the front panels, one each just above the side seams, one on each side of the back lower piece, and one smack in the middle of the back piece. Below is a highlighted photo (unfortunately very low resolution–all I could find online) of the inside of the cote in question. Note the points are quite visible, though the ones in the side seam on the left of the picture are a bit hard to pick out visually. Incidentally, I take the middle point to be an excellent argument for this garment having been made for wearing with joined hose. If they were split hose, what would be the point of the point?
As to 14th century ankle-high turn-shoes, there are several surviving ones but illuminations of the day don't seem to show them very often. Bata Shoe Museum has a surviving one. They used to have pictures up on their website but I can't find them now. I've added a couple of shots of it below. There are also several different ankle-boots documented in the books Shoes and Pattens by the Museum of London, and Stepping through Time by Olaf Goubits. My copies are at home and I'm at work (where the scanner is), so I can't upload any of those pictures.
As to 14th century ankle-high turn-shoes, there are several surviving ones but illuminations of the day don't seem to show them very often. Bata Shoe Museum has a surviving one. They used to have pictures up on their website but I can't find them now. I've added a couple of shots of it below. There are also several different ankle-boots documented in the books Shoes and Pattens by the Museum of London, and Stepping through Time by Olaf Goubits. My copies are at home and I'm at work (where the scanner is), so I can't upload any of those pictures.
- Attachments
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- Inside view of the Charles de Blois cottehardie.
- Catalina-Highlighted.jpg (91.64 KiB) Viewed 1319 times
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- Side view of the boot at the Bata Shoe Museum in Toronto, CA.
- Bata-Boot-Side.jpg (75.08 KiB) Viewed 1319 times
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- A view of the open throat of the Bata boot. Note that the boot is stuffed to help it hold it's shape. Note also the tongue, which is connected only to the vamp, but not to the flaps of the upper.
- Bata-Boot-Open-Throat.jpg (76.16 KiB) Viewed 1319 times
Owein ap Cai
Barony of Grey Niche, Gleann Abhann
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Barony of Grey Niche, Gleann Abhann
Memphis, TN
- Corey D. Sullivan
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Wow, that is an awesome boot! It doesn't look particularly difficult to construct either, though I may be decieved.
Now I feel like making a pair of those dammit!
Are those buttons or hook and eye closures? If they're buttons, what are they made of?
Now I'm itching for a pair of those.
Heck, I should go see them in Toronto, I'm headed there next weekend.
Now I feel like making a pair of those dammit!
Are those buttons or hook and eye closures? If they're buttons, what are they made of?
Now I'm itching for a pair of those.
Heck, I should go see them in Toronto, I'm headed there next weekend.
Corey
There are quite a good number of those boots in Stepping Through Time; if you really want to make a pair that book would really help you out.
There are quite a good number of those boots in Stepping Through Time; if you really want to make a pair that book would really help you out.
Last edited by James B. on Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
- earnest carruthers
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Your hose construction, attachment and length (height) are generally speaking dependent on which part of the 14thc you portray, early to mid and you attach the hose to the breech strap and later to the upper garment doublet/pourpoint.
Attachments involving hose to breech (braies) include tying to the breech strap, a 'button' - possibly a small bead or other possibly part of the breech and then the hose cloth pushed over it and tied on.
Attachments involving hose to breech (braies) include tying to the breech strap, a 'button' - possibly a small bead or other possibly part of the breech and then the hose cloth pushed over it and tied on.
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- mephit
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If you go to Bata and can get photos, I'd love copies. I quite like that boot, myself. As to constructing it, it's not hard, per se, but it is fairly complicated to get the fit right. They would have been made inside out on a carved wooden form called a last and sewn together using a specialized stitch which keeps all the thread inside the shoe where it won't wear as quickly.Corey D. Sullivan wrote:Wow, that is an awesome boot! It doesn't look particularly difficult to construct either, though I may be decieved.
Now I feel like making a pair of those dammit!
Are those buttons or hook and eye closures? If they're buttons, what are they made of?
Now I'm itching for a pair of those.
Heck, I should go see them in Toronto, I'm headed there next weekend.
The attachments are called toggles. They're really easy to make. You take a strip of leather having a bulge one end. You cut a slit in the middle of the bulge and roll the other end of the strip through the slit. Pull it tight and take a stitch through it to hold it in place and you're done. Basically like a zip-tie pulled up tight but made of leather. The loose end is sewn to the inside of the leather and often passed through a slit to the outside, and the toggle goes through a slit on the other piece of the boot.
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Barony of Grey Niche, Gleann Abhann
Memphis, TN
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Blois Cotte inside view
Honestly, I wish I could remember. I found it online several years ago when looking for documentation on Charles' cottehardie. I kept every picture I could find and that was one. Of course, I wasn't near smart enough to keep the URLs. That would have been far too clever. D'oh! It's the only inside shot of the cotte I've ever seen, so I snagged it as fast as I saw it.Mac wrote:Memphit,
Were did the picture of Charles' cotte come from?
Thanks!
Mac
Owein ap Cai
Barony of Grey Niche, Gleann Abhann
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Barony of Grey Niche, Gleann Abhann
Memphis, TN
- mephit
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Toggle boot info.
OK, I've had a chance to dig out my Goubitz, and here's a paraphrase of what he has to say about them. These are what he calls Type 35 (Instep-Toggle fastening shoes and boots), variant II. This variant seems to have been very common as about 450 examples have been unearthed at Dordrecht alone. They are characterized by their high leg-part (called the quarters in modern shoe parlance), the large number of toggles (as many as a dozen) and the triangular tongue coming up from from the vamp.
I've uploaded a picture of the closest diagram from Goubitz to the Bata boot. It's from page 163 of Stepping Through Time. You can see the reconstruction of the boot and the cutting pattern. The tall, thin, triangular piece is the heel stiffener (sewn into the inside of the quarters at the base of the heel) and you can see the stitch holes for it on the main vamp/quarters piece. The sort-of chevron-shaped piece is the tongue. The quarters are pieced together out of what's available, so the seams are somewhat odd. The same is true of the sole.
Also, see the photo I've uploaded of two toggles I made last night for a pair of shoes I'm making. These took about 10 minutes total. I've unrolled one to show the flat shape. Very simple. According to Goubits, the medieval ones were a little bit more complex, being wrapped a couple of times before piercing rather than just the once. I find my simplified method works just fine, however.
I've uploaded a picture of the closest diagram from Goubitz to the Bata boot. It's from page 163 of Stepping Through Time. You can see the reconstruction of the boot and the cutting pattern. The tall, thin, triangular piece is the heel stiffener (sewn into the inside of the quarters at the base of the heel) and you can see the stitch holes for it on the main vamp/quarters piece. The sort-of chevron-shaped piece is the tongue. The quarters are pieced together out of what's available, so the seams are somewhat odd. The same is true of the sole.
Also, see the photo I've uploaded of two toggles I made last night for a pair of shoes I'm making. These took about 10 minutes total. I've unrolled one to show the flat shape. Very simple. According to Goubits, the medieval ones were a little bit more complex, being wrapped a couple of times before piercing rather than just the once. I find my simplified method works just fine, however.
- Attachments
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- Two toggles prior to being sewn to the shoe.
- Toggles.jpg (82.47 KiB) Viewed 1094 times
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- Toggle-Boot-Diagram-Goubits.jpg
- Diagram of very high Type 35vII from Olaf Goubits' Stepping Through Time.
- (97.47 KiB) Downloaded 55 times
Owein ap Cai
Barony of Grey Niche, Gleann Abhann
Memphis, TN
Barony of Grey Niche, Gleann Abhann
Memphis, TN
Ha I brought my book in this morning to scan page 163 also
Mephit
On your toggle; why did you go with a large square hole? Goubitz shows them as having two slits the long tounge slips through; I have made a pair of the Hedeby toggle boots like this before and I find the double slit way was perfect.
Toggles shown of page 162:
Mephit
On your toggle; why did you go with a large square hole? Goubitz shows them as having two slits the long tounge slips through; I have made a pair of the Hedeby toggle boots like this before and I find the double slit way was perfect.
Toggles shown of page 162:
- Corey D. Sullivan
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Thank-you very much for the scans, both of you! I've never attempted a pair of shoes before, and this makes it much easier for me.
Yes James, the toggles you've shown aren't any harder to make, but I think that they wouldn't work as well with the leather that Mephit used. It's too thick, and the toggle would end up being very large and bulky.
Yes James, the toggles you've shown aren't any harder to make, but I think that they wouldn't work as well with the leather that Mephit used. It's too thick, and the toggle would end up being very large and bulky.
Could be; I used 8oz leather for mine but they were larger on the example I was working with than the boot we are currently talking about.Corey D. Sullivan wrote:Yes James, the toggles you've shown aren't any harder to make, but I think that they wouldn't work as well with the leather that Mephit used. It's too thick, and the toggle would end up being very large and bulky.
- mephit
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Mr. Sullivan has the right of it. I was going to use just a slit, but when I tried to pass the strip through, it was too thick so I widened the hole a bit. If I'd made the toggle bulge (for lack of a better term) wider, I could have just widened the slit, but that wasn't really an option. That leather is about 8 oz, but the toggles are quite small. They're for closing a pair of poulaines, so I wanted a pretty fine toggle for a dressy pair of shoes. That's also why I made a single wrap rather than the double that Goubitz shows. With 8 oz vegtan, that'd be a pretty thick toggle.James B. wrote:On your toggle; why did you go with a large square hole? Goubitz shows them as having two slits the long tounge slips through; I have made a pair of the Hedeby toggle boots like this before and I find the double slit way was perfect.
I think part of the problem we have is that the types of leather used by medieval shoemakers just aren't available. I search long and hard at the local Tandy for the most supple tooling sides I can find, but when you compare them to alum-tawed leather (which is really closer to a modern chrome tan than an oak tan. Alum and chrome both use mineral salts to maintain flexibility and restrict the damage from water and decay) they're still stiff and hard to work. It's just not that comparable.
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- Duane W
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Hi Mac;Mac wrote:Memphit,
Were did the picture of Charles' cotte come from?
Thanks!
Mac
If found a similar photo on this website:
http://www.geocities.com/wolfram_von_ta ... rpoint.htm
The photo is attributed to Marie Schoefer, the curator of the cotte exhibit. If you look closely at the color image posted in this forum, I believe you will see her name next to the image on the lower right-hand side of the photo.
I don't know if this will help, but it is the best I could come up with.
Take care,
Duane
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I've been wearing braies and chausses for years, and I've never had this happen. If you tie the braies snugly above your hips with a cord that wont stretch, it shouldn't be possible.BaronMal wrote:Personally I tie my hose to a light leather belt that I wear over my brais.
I dont know if its period or not, but I dont care, Im worried about my hose dragging my undies off if things go horribly wrong.
For some reason, I never have the "diaper butt" problem. Maybe my braies just fit well? They weren't made to fit, so it'd just be good luck if that was the case...
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Im not saying its a reasonable or even rational fear, its just a fear=)Donasian wrote:I've been wearing braies and chausses for years, and I've never had this happen. If you tie the braies snugly above your hips with a cord that wont stretch, it shouldn't be possible.BaronMal wrote:Personally I tie my hose to a light leather belt that I wear over my brais.
I dont know if its period or not, but I dont care, Im worried about my hose dragging my undies off if things go horribly wrong.
For some reason, I never have the "diaper butt" problem. Maybe my braies just fit well? They weren't made to fit, so it'd just be good luck if that was the case...
-Donasian.
When I did theatre in high school and colledge I tended to wear belts AND suspenders for the same reason.
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Alum-tawed stuff is indeed the shiznit. If you need some, drop me a PM, I have plenty and can arrange something (it's nearly all I use, since it's historically uber-correct for Hungary).mephit wrote: I search long and hard at the local Tandy for the most supple tooling sides I can find, but when you compare them to alum-tawed leather (which is really closer to a modern chrome tan than an oak tan. Alum and chrome both use mineral salts to maintain flexibility and restrict the damage from water and decay) they're still stiff and hard to work. It's just not that comparable.