Mord's Conclusions: Viking Armour

To discuss research into and about the middle ages.

Moderator: Glen K

Aelfric of Cedde
New Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:14 am
Location: Stockport, England
Contact:

Post by Aelfric of Cedde »

Mord wrote:
I do not deny that the Franks, Merovingian or Carolingian, had mail (or some sort of body armor), and I have not discussed the Anglo-Saxons or the Anglo-Danes. But where are the Scandinavians?
I must admit that I haven’t studied sources for Scandinavia in much detail at all though as Scandinavian armies were able to take on English and Frankish armies in open battle and do reasonably well I would imagine that their equipment couldn’t have been that substandard compared to their enemies, though that is speculation.
Mord wrote:
Has it occured to you that there are limitations about the sources you've listed? Was the poet there at the Battle of Maldon to see Byrthnoth killed? To see his retainers run in cowardice?
I do appreciate that there may be limitations in the sources listed (though the law seems a fairly black and white requirement) but when they are all giving the same message I’m inclined to accept it[/quote]

Mord wrote: I've stated this before, history is a matter time and place examined through skepticism. Early medieval northern Europe is too large a time (500AD to 1100--600 years?) and too large a geography (From Kiev to Iceland) to make the generaliztions you've made. New sources than the pictorial and written sources you've post point towards a much more specific time and place.

That’s certainly true but the sources I listed were all from a period of around 300 years (still a fair while) and tend to paint a picture of a fair number of warriors having mail. a book I would recommend on the topic is ‘Warfare and Society in the Barbarian West 450 – 900’ by Guy Halsall which is an excellent look at the whole scope of war and war gear during this period
Mord
Archive Member
Posts: 9752
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:48 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA (looking at a wall)

Post by Mord »

Aelfric of Cedde wrote:
Mord wrote:
I do not deny that the Franks, Merovingian or Carolingian, had mail (or some sort of body armor), and I have not discussed the Anglo-Saxons or the Anglo-Danes. But where are the Scandinavians?
I must admit that I haven’t studied sources for Scandinavia in much detail at all though as Scandinavian armies were able to take on English and Frankish armies in open battle and do reasonably well I would imagine that their equipment couldn’t have been that substandard compared to their enemies, though that is speculation.
Mord wrote:
Has it occured to you that there are limitations about the sources you've listed? Was the poet there at the Battle of Maldon to see Byrthnoth killed? To see his retainers run in cowardice?
I do appreciate that there may be limitations in the sources listed (though the law seems a fairly black and white requirement) but when they are all giving the same message I’m inclined to accept it
Mord wrote: I've stated this before, history is a matter time and place examined through skepticism. Early medieval northern Europe is too large a time (500AD to 1100--600 years?) and too large a geography (From Kiev to Iceland) to make the generaliztions you've made. New sources than the pictorial and written sources you've post point towards a much more specific time and place.

That’s certainly true but the sources I listed were all from a period of around 300 years (still a fair while) and tend to paint a picture of a fair number of warriors having mail. a book I would recommend on the topic is ‘Warfare and Society in the Barbarian West 450 – 900’ by Guy Halsall which is an excellent look at the whole scope of war and war gear during this period[/quote]

I've read Guy Halsall's book. His discussion of arms and armor, imo, is too brief, and does not take social position or economics into account. There are reasons for this: the social history of the early middle ages does not have enough evidence to draw any sort of detailed conclusion. Archaeologist, working under the guise of "material culture" (kind of like coating a pill with chocolate), have attempted to gather evidence and construct a synthesis based upon what they've found. The most obvious archaeologist who has tried this is Richard Hodges. However, his synthsis is economic, not social.

On social-historical question for the entire period and the places it represents, we are very much in the dark as to details. This is very much ture with the Scandinavian kingdoms (when these kingdoms actually existed), despite the valant attempts of Foote and Willson (The Viking Achievement) Do you really think that social structure of Charlegmagne's Frankia was the same as Alfred the Great's? Cnut"s? Svein Forkbeard? Harald Hardrada's? I have my doubts.

Oh, and btw, 300 years is still an awfully long time, and you haven't even discussed the geographical element in all this. Considering that the Scandinavian were expanding out of their homelands, the geographical element takes on more importance.

Mord.
Keep calm and carry a bigger stick.
Mord
Archive Member
Posts: 9752
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:48 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA (looking at a wall)

Post by Mord »

Before anything else happens, I'd like to finish with shields...

But I'm divided if I should discuss the Bayeux Tapesty or not. The Tapestry of the battle of Hastings is thought to be sponsored by the Normans, who were "feudalists" (this word and the ideas behind it have recently been dismissed--read Susan Reynolds), so at this point it might be easy for all simply ignore this representational source. Of course, it isn't that easy.

The Normans ancestors were Danes; many think that the Normans were "sucessful vikings," but this thinking really short-changes both the Norman and the Danes. By the time of Duke William, the Normans had been "French-fried" and "Christianized" under the theology of the Cluniac reforms, where the Church had become much more powerful than the secular authorities (who had pretty much dropped the ball in the area of governing). Meanwhile, Danes had not only accepted Christianity, but had also conquered England. In very many ways, the Battle of Hastings swept out old system of the personal ruling house of Harald Godwinsson, and justified the new system of kingship with vasselage of the Normans. Given this explaination, I look at the Bayeux tapestry as a document of beginning, not as a source of continuation.

Material Sources:

The oldest and best known material source for viking shields is from Gokstad. These 32 shields, found outside the buried ship, have been used as a "model" by many. The only source that discusses them in any detail is the Nicolaysen's dig report of 1878. He describes the shields as 96 cm in diameter, with centerboss and wooden grip. He also states that the boards were made of pine, but another later source, "Scandinavian Archaeology" (by Falk and Shetelig, 1937?) states that the board were really spruce. This difference posed a problem, and so I finally wrote Dr. Arne Emil-Christiansen of the Oslo Ship Museum, and he very kindly informed that the boards were spruce. He not tell what the handles were made of.

The shields were painted yellow and black, which means they weren't covered. More importantly, a series of small holes, sometimes with iron nails, were found around the edge of each shield. This points toward some kind of rimming, though what that rimming was remains unknown.

I have heard (which is to say I've not read what actually happened) that a living history group tried to use shields of the Gokstads' diameter and failed to be effective. How they failed is not told (?), but afterwards came the speculation that these shields were for some sort of religious/burial practice. Just because you can make a thing doesn't mean you know how to use it, or how it was used. A simpler answer, if embarrassing, is the group didn't know how to use the shields in the first place.

Other material information has been found at Birka and is documented in Arbman's catalog of Stolpe's notebook. The most interesting information found is from Grave 736. This Chamber grave contained 2 shields, one of which was about 80 cm in diameter. This is known by a series of rimming "clips" which were found. These clips were made of iron and riveted to the boards. These clips also show that the boards, like the one found at Gokstad, were thin, less than 1/2 inch. The Birka shield also, if I've read the entry correctly, had a metal (iron) handel that reinforced the entire shield.

More, later. Hopefully an end.

Mord.

PS. Yeah, I'm tired.
Keep calm and carry a bigger stick.
Mord
Archive Member
Posts: 9752
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:48 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA (looking at a wall)

Post by Mord »

To continue:

The information I posted from Birka is incomplete. There are other graves with shields parts that can be examined. Peter Beatson lists these graves.

I have heard that another shield has been recently found in Denmark, and that it's made of fir wood (a conifer). The diameter of this shield is similar to those found at Birka--about 80 cm.

I have also heard of a shield found in Latvia, but I know knowing else.


The hemi-spherical boss is the shield-part that is most found in graves. These bosses have been found from Iceland across Scandinavia all the way to Kiev. There are so many bosses found that a typology has been created. This typology was created in the 19th Century by Oluf Rygh in "Norske Oldsager." G. Arwiddsson uses it in her analysis of the shield-parts found in the Birka graves.

There is only one area of exception with shield bosses: the Irish Sea. Here, some bosses are conical, not hemispherical. Check Stetelig's "Viking Antiquities in Great Britian and Ireland" for further information. I'm sorry I don't know which volume it is, but I think it's authored by J. Boe.

Another shieldboss has been identified on an Island off the shores of France with a fairly different flange than anywhere else.

The other shield part that shows up in graves are handles. They are made of iron, so some are fragmentary. However, these handles look as if they also reenforce the shield. More importantly, the grip of the handle is oval, not round. An oval grip allows the warrior better control over the shield. The only wooden handle I've seen was found with the Gokstad shields.

And that's all. Tommarrow I will be too busy to write any sort of coherent conclusion. Next week, I'm on vacation. It'll be a while before I can post any more. I hope Glen will make this a sticky, and I hope all that read this got something out of it.

Mord.
Keep calm and carry a bigger stick.
Thomas Powers
Archive Member
Posts: 13112
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Socorro, New Mexico

Post by Thomas Powers »

Mord I'm a bit dubious to ascribing iron wire drawing to early medieval times. The wrought iron used at that period was generally quite hetereogeneous and would provide a great problem to use drawplates for reduction. It provides quite a lot of problems just smithing it hot!

I've run across many people claiming it was drawn because so much was used a bit of backwards reasoning in my opinion.

Many people, (unfortunately especially in the SCA), make their assertions based on how modern mild steel reacts to drawing which is rather odd as they don't make their travel hypothesis based on what a modern car can do.

So I'm quite willing to ascribe extant drawplates to nonferrous wire drawing.

Thomas Powers
User avatar
Cap'n Atli
Archive Member
Posts: 7400
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Oakley, Maryland, USA (in St. Mary's ["b'Gawd Cap'n..."] County)
Contact:

Post by Cap'n Atli »

Cautions on Burial Ships:

When considering an archaeological find the context is everything. Why is the vessel there? Why are the objects aboard it there? Are the tents and cooking utensils part of the ship's equipment or grave goods for the afterlife? Is the anchor all or part of the normal ground tackle or just the anchor that was handy at the time? If it's a grave site, did they choose the ship because it was beautiful, or because it was old, or because it was the decease's favorite ship, or because it happened to be at hand?

The Oseberg ship had a number of unfinished oars aboard when buried, a very small anchor, and the steerboard had no place to attach the lifting line. Were the "ship shields" meant for business or display?

A funeral is a special occasion, and where there may be some areas of greater elaboration for the afterlife, some things tend to slide, just like in real life. Also the vessel (besides being really old and much repaired) is probably not typical of a warship, but may be more akin to a royal yacht. She would have been sleek, fast and graceful, but (given that her replicas seem to sink from time-to-time) not my first choice for raiding.

At any rate, the shields found aboard her may have been practical defensive ship's equipment, or status items, or they may have been specifically made for the funeral. The last circumstance does not rule out that they may be typical shields of the era, but does lead to some degree of uncertainty.

A note on flat Viking shields:

Having worked with both flat Viking style shields and dished Anglo-Saxon style shields, I can say with some degree of confidence that the flat style stows much more easily aboard the vessels. Also, many of the vessels found have some provision for arranging the shields along the gun'ls. I think that the shields were normally displayed thus except when they had to be taken inboard for heavy weather. Lord knows, there's enough problems with clutter without a batch of shields getting in the way.

We return to Mord's further wisdom and summation.

(Edited for spacing)
Last edited by Cap'n Atli on Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Retired civil servant, part time blacksmith, and seasonal Viking ship captain.

Visit parks: http://www.nps.gov
Forge iron: http://www.anvilfire.com
Go viking: http://www.longshipco.org

"Fifty years abaft the mast."
Hundmathr
New Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2003 2:01 am
Location: Hamilton, NY, USA

Post by Hundmathr »

Matheus Hundamathr

A kind word need not cost much,
The price of praise can be cheap:
With half a loaf and an empty cup
I found myself a friend

From the Havamal
Mord
Archive Member
Posts: 9752
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:48 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA (looking at a wall)

Post by Mord »

Folks,

I am going to be on vacation for the next week(turkey-day duties), so any answers, thoughts, or conclusions will probably have to wait.

I have been giving some thought to a conclusion. I will probably spend some of my time off writing it.

Thank you,

Mord.
Keep calm and carry a bigger stick.
Dan Howard
Archive Member
Posts: 1757
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:30 pm
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia

Post by Dan Howard »

Thomas Powers wrote:Mord I'm a bit dubious to ascribing iron wire drawing to early medieval times. The wrought iron used at that period was generally quite hetereogeneous and would provide a great problem to use drawplates for reduction. It provides quite a lot of problems just smithing it hot!

I've run across many people claiming it was drawn because so much was used a bit of backwards reasoning in my opinion.

Many people, (unfortunately especially in the SCA), make their assertions based on how modern mild steel reacts to drawing which is rather odd as they don't make their travel hypothesis based on what a modern car can do.

So I'm quite willing to ascribe extant drawplates to nonferrous wire drawing.

Thomas Powers
The Romans definitely practised iron wire drawing. Did the quality of iron blooms deteriorate after the Roman period?
User avatar
Endre Fodstad
Archive Member
Posts: 1277
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 2:01 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Post by Endre Fodstad »

Iron quality during the early middle ages could be quite decent, Thomas - I've seen archeometallurgical analysis (cross-section metallographs) of wrought iron of comparable quality to later period wrought iron. I've also made cross-sections of Indian 17th century mass-produced drawn-wire maille of abysmal iron quality which they seem to have been able to draw although it, after 300 years, is falling apart due to corrosion even though it is properly stored.

Myself, I would be far more leery of making assumptions on metallurgical grounds than I would be from written sources, which describe maille aplenty during the early medieval period, and the many finds of maille we actually have. Some metallurgists jump the gun at every opportunity, declaring iron and steel quality of an entire period from a small number of finds and making unreasonable comparisons. Typically, they find something they consider amazing and trump it up as "better than anything we see before modern times" - I've seen pre-roman Iron age, roman period from rome, roman period from germanic lands, early medieval, high medieval and late medieval examples of this.
MariaAgrissa
Archive Member
Posts: 937
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:01 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

In Conclusion: A Caveat

Post by MariaAgrissa »

(Mord is on vacation - I'm posting on his behalf from my office...Maria A.S.)

Since most of the information found about “Vikingâ€
Thomas Powers
Archive Member
Posts: 13112
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Socorro, New Mexico

Post by Thomas Powers »

On the quality of iron after the fall of the roman hegemony: Lets just say they didn't chisel the iron connecting pins out of roman stone columns because they had an abundance of good quality of iron to work with.

The problem becomes how to you identify wire as to it's manufacturing process, especially when corrosion will proactively attack strained areas that would show process the most clearly.

Dan can you provide me with a cite on the Roman iron drawing? I guess my MIT book on western technology is out of date; easy to happen as finds are made or evaluated.

Endre; written sources don't describe *how* the iron wire was made as far as any I have found dating to the early medieval period. I would be most happy if you could provide me with such sources. Making the assumpting that iron wire must be drawn because of it's prevelance seems to me about as valid as making the assumtion that the spinning wheel must have been used in early medieval times because of the great ammounts of thread needed for weaving back then.

What I would like is a good through study on a large number of samples looking for metallographic evidence of how the wire was prepared. Can you point me at such a study? (BTW have you published on your cross-sections of Indian 17th century mass-produced drawn-wire maille; I'd be quite interested in seeing it!)

In addition I am not basing my assumptions on metallurgical grounds as much as my experiences making and working with real wrought iron and the knowledge that some of the early mail seems to have been of fairly low quality iron. I have trouble seeing how largish ferrous silicate inclusions could be drawn either hot or cold without necking or breaking of the wire. (cold the silicates blocking the orifice, hot the liquid silicates being weaker and so causing weak spots in the wire.)

(I had one of my students forging out real wrought iron and making blister steel from it for a project he is working on just this last weekend)

Thomas
User avatar
Bob H
Archive Member
Posts: 21294
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Tri-Cities, TN
Contact:

Re: In Conclusion: A Caveat

Post by Bob H »

MariaAgrissa wrote: ...This is context of the graveyard, and many have concluded that the chamber graves represent a local upper class with a warrior elite and important connections to the outside world.
You've touched on an idea that I question - that we are looking for "pure Norsemen", not influenced by the rest of the world. When you consider that the Norse were travelers, raiders, and at times settlers in a large part of the world, how can you define something as "purely Norse"? I suspect that trying to separate outside influences detected in archaeological sites leads us to a false image that the Scandinavians had a core, insular culture, despite all the evidence that they were what we now term "world citizens" - that is, of the parts of the world that they knew.

What is found is what is found. Throwing out the things that don't fit our expectations robs us of a complete understanding of the culture.
Dan Howard
Archive Member
Posts: 1757
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:30 pm
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia

Post by Dan Howard »

Thomas Powers wrote:Dan can you provide me with a cite on the Roman iron drawing? I guess my MIT book on western technology is out of date; easy to happen as finds are made or evaluated.
Examination of slag inclusions in Roman mail links indicate that they were made from drawn wire. The dimensional consistency of the links suggest that they could only have been made from drawn wire. There are at least two surviving drawplates dating to the Roman period. David Sim covers some of the evidence for Roman wire drawing in "Iron for the Eagles." p.102
I have trouble seeing how largish ferrous silicate inclusions could be drawn either hot or cold without necking or breaking of the wire. (cold the silicates blocking the orifice, hot the liquid silicates being weaker and so causing weak spots in the wire.)
Agreed. Only good quality bloomery iron could be drawn into wire. The slag inclusions would have to be small and well distributed.
User avatar
Endre Fodstad
Archive Member
Posts: 1277
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 2:01 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Post by Endre Fodstad »

Thomas Powers wrote:On the quality of iron after the fall of the roman hegemony: Lets just say they didn't chisel the iron connecting pins out of roman stone columns because they had an abundance of good quality of iron to work with.
Re-using discarded materials is not new to the early middle ages, so that is not a functional argument. People pillaged ruined cathedrals for stone well into the 20th century even when there were nearby quarries - it was cheaper.
Thomas Powers wrote: Endre; written sources don't describe *how* the iron wire was made as far as any I have found dating to the early medieval period. I would be most happy if you could provide me with such sources. Making the assumpting that iron wire must be drawn because of it's prevelance seems to me about as valid as making the assumtion that the spinning wheel must have been used in early medieval times because of the great ammounts of thread needed for weaving back then.
Here is Vegard's cross-sections of Gjermundbu:

http://www.vikingsna.org/translations/ringweave.pdf

Page 14ff. The wire is in all likelihood drawn (as usual, metallography cannot give 100% precise answers on this - it never really can, after all, only strong indications - but it is just as good as any roman metallographical evidence I've seen) and most certainly is of high enough quality to be drawnl. This is the only complete viking age scandinavian mail shirt in existence, dating to the 10th century.

There is, however, more: since it is the result of a fire burial, it still has - something very rare, and as far as I know unknown from danish bog finds or any roman context - its original surface preserved as an oxidation layer. The longitudal stripes on the Gjermundbu mail are from irregularities in the draw iron and is a rare find - it more or less guarantees the thread as having been drawn. It was probably produced in frankish territories.

Here is Arne's report on the Hedegaard pre-roman maille and Brokær (late roman):
http://www.archaeometry.dk/Jern/Jouttij ... n-mail.pdf

Again, drawn wire rings when riveted, except for repairs, which have been made from cut sheet.

The Hedegaard maille is made from north german or polish iron (slag inclusion analysis), and are associated with germanic - or at least non-roman - iron production.

We thus have germanic-made maille, with wire drawn before the rise of rome, likely germanic-made drawn maille wire made during the late roman empire, and "germanic" (frankish) -made maille with wire drawn during the early middle ages. These are just articles I immediately knew where to get as I know the authors. Why germanic maille-making processes that date from before the rise of rome should be disturbed by the fall of rome is beyond me - if anything their armorers could absorb roman techniques from captured armorers in addition to what they were already capable of. Note that my sources have a clear scandinavian bias in material, as could be expected.

Remember also that low-carbon wrought iron can be worked hot to remove impurities unlike steels which will eventually "burn". You only need a furnace to produce decent slag-free wrought iron.

There are no large-scale studies of armour metal quality - for any period - with the exception of Williams' book, which is only really good for late medieval plate armour (as I recall it, he writes some odd things about maille production). There are, however, a LOT of articles that analyze a small number of samples and jump to conclusions for whole periods over those samples. Arne and Vegard simply report what they find and make limited conclusions, which is why I like their kind of academic approach.

I was about to post the Indian samples (they were taken at a metallurgical seminar at WPI/Higgins a few years back) but couldn't find them in my hard drive. I sure hope they didn't get lost on the hard disk migration of last month. I'll check the backups.

Thanks to Vegard Vike for some additional information which I originally requested for another off-net question.
Mord
Archive Member
Posts: 9752
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:48 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA (looking at a wall)

Post by Mord »

Thomas Powers wrote:Mord I'm a bit dubious to ascribing iron wire drawing to early medieval times. The wrought iron used at that period was generally quite hetereogeneous and would provide a great problem to use drawplates for reduction. It provides quite a lot of problems just smithing it hot!

I've run across many people claiming it was drawn because so much was used a bit of backwards reasoning in my opinion.

Many people, (unfortunately especially in the SCA), make their assertions based on how modern mild steel reacts to drawing which is rather odd as they don't make their travel hypothesis based on what a modern car can do.

So I'm quite willing to ascribe extant drawplates to nonferrous wire drawing.

Thomas Powers
I have heard that some are dubious about this method. Do you have a documentable alternative?

As I've stated, I'm using the chapter from D. Tweddle's Coppergate Helmet book as a basis.

Mord.
Keep calm and carry a bigger stick.
Mord
Archive Member
Posts: 9752
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:48 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA (looking at a wall)

Re: In Conclusion: A Caveat

Post by Mord »

Bob H wrote:
MariaAgrissa wrote: ...This is context of the graveyard, and many have concluded that the chamber graves represent a local upper class with a warrior elite and important connections to the outside world.
You've touched on an idea that I question - that we are looking for "pure Norsemen", not influenced by the rest of the world. When you consider that the Norse were travelers, raiders, and at times settlers in a large part of the world, how can you define something as "purely Norse"? I suspect that trying to separate outside influences detected in archaeological sites leads us to a false image that the Scandinavians had a core, insular culture, despite all the evidence that they were what we now term "world citizens" - that is, of the parts of the world that they knew.

What is found is what is found. Throwing out the things that don't fit our expectations robs us of a complete understanding of the culture.
There's an easy answer to this, Bob, and not-so-easy answer to this. I will have to get to it a little later. Coming back to work leaves me with some unfinished business.

Mord.
Keep calm and carry a bigger stick.
Mord
Archive Member
Posts: 9752
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:48 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA (looking at a wall)

Re: In Conclusion: A Caveat

Post by Mord »

Bob H wrote:
MariaAgrissa wrote: ...This is context of the graveyard, and many have concluded that the chamber graves represent a local upper class with a warrior elite and important connections to the outside world.
You've touched on an idea that I question - that we are looking for "pure Norsemen", not influenced by the rest of the world. When you consider that the Norse were travelers, raiders, and at times settlers in a large part of the world, how can you define something as "purely Norse"? I suspect that trying to separate outside influences detected in archaeological sites leads us to a false image that the Scandinavians had a core, insular culture, despite all the evidence that they were what we now term "world citizens" - that is, of the parts of the world that they knew.

What is found is what is found. Throwing out the things that don't fit our expectations robs us of a complete understanding of the culture.
The easy answer:

When I was in the midst of looking at the dig reports and then reading about approaching the subject, it occured to me that no only are there forms of graves (ship, chamber, pyre, & urn), but also "patterns of objects" seen in each grave. These patterns are mostly divided by gender: male graves contain weapons, equine equipment, and the occasional animal sacrifice; female graves contain brooches, other jewelry, scissors, a knife, and other household items. Another division can be seen along "professions." A merchant's grave will sometime contain a set of scales and goods for trade; a smith's will contain hammers. "Professional" graves, in my experience, are rarer.

From these patterns, we can discern the Scandinavian stamp or influence when we find a new grave (or graves) or examine objects found from older, less well documented digs.

Also, burials are not the only efforts of archaeologists interested in the early middle ages. The archaeology of towns and settlements contributes a huge amount of data and information. Burial archaeology only provides the best information about arms and armor; looking at the whole of archaeological efforts in comparison yields useful information from where a "culture" is reconstructed and examined. For instance, the production of iron and the making of mail includes a significant element of settlement and habitation (my word) archaeology.

However, while the whole of archaeology leads to greater understanding of the time, place, and people it's applied to, these efforts, whatever their quality, also lead to new questions and greater confusion. The confusing realization leads to the not-so-easy answer.

Later,

Mord.
Keep calm and carry a bigger stick.
ravingbantha
Archive Member
Posts: 460
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, Mi area

Post by ravingbantha »

I've been wondering for some time about this subject. Now I will admit alot of what I think of is, to date, influenced by movies. However since Vikings were raiders who plundered what they could, would it reasonable to assume that IF they manged to aquire some better armor from a raid, they would take it and use it for their own use?

I've always liked the culture of the Norse and some other 'viking' cultures, but when it comes to armor, I have a fondness for heavier plate, that is not inline with what Vikings notmally had.

Basicly I am thinking of a warrior that perhaps has gotten lucky in his conquests, maintains alot of the viking look but wearing armor obvously not made by him or his folk.
Mord
Archive Member
Posts: 9752
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:48 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA (looking at a wall)

Re: In Conclusion: A Caveat

Post by Mord »

Mord wrote:
Bob H wrote:
MariaAgrissa wrote: ...This is context of the graveyard, and many have concluded that the chamber graves represent a local upper class with a warrior elite and important connections to the outside world.
You've touched on an idea that I question - that we are looking for "pure Norsemen", not influenced by the rest of the world. When you consider that the Norse were travelers, raiders, and at times settlers in a large part of the world, how can you define something as "purely Norse"? I suspect that trying to separate outside influences detected in archaeological sites leads us to a false image that the Scandinavians had a core, insular culture, despite all the evidence that they were what we now term "world citizens" - that is, of the parts of the world that they knew.

What is found is what is found. Throwing out the things that don't fit our expectations robs us of a complete understanding of the culture.
The easy answer:

When I was in the midst of looking at the dig reports and then reading about approaching the subject, it occured to me that no only are there forms of graves (ship, chamber, pyre, & urn), but also "patterns of objects" seen in each grave. These patterns are mostly divided by gender: male graves contain weapons, equine equipment, and the occasional animal sacrifice; female graves contain brooches, other jewelry, scissors, a knife, and other household items. Another division can be seen along "professions." A merchant's grave will sometime contain a set of scales and goods for trade; a smith's will contain hammers. "Professional" graves, in my experience, are rarer.

From these patterns, we can discern the Scandinavian stamp or influence when we find a new grave (or graves) or examine objects found from older, less well documented digs.

Also, burials are not the only efforts of archaeologists interested in the early middle ages. The archaeology of towns and settlements contributes a huge amount of data and information. Burial archaeology only provides the best information about arms and armor; looking at the whole of archaeological efforts in comparison yields useful information from where a "culture" is reconstructed and examined. For instance, the production of iron and the making of mail includes a significant element of settlement and habitation (my word) archaeology.

However, while the whole of archaeology leads to greater understanding of the time, place, and people it's applied to, these efforts, whatever their quality, also lead to new questions and greater confusion. The confusing realization leads to the not-so-easy answer.

Later,

Mord.
The not so easy answer; please consider:

1. Except for mass-graves, a burial has the following elements in it: A. the position/wishes/property of the individula being buried, B. The people burying the individual, & C. the cultural traditions. The question has to be asked, espeically with a semi-literate or illiterate, community/group/tribe as to where the divisions between the deceased, the people, and the culture can be found? Also, can these divisions be found?

2. The terminal point of an object is not necesarily the origin point.

3. The archaeological problem of dating--C14 is approximent; dendrochronology requires a large geographical database (these days done by computer databases), seriation (even digital multi-point seriation) is limited to time and geographical area (see Anne Norgard-Jorensen's work) and cover the all of the place and time. Dating problems leave room for doubt.

4. The limits of the sources of information. What we find in a grave is not always all that was put in it. Some graves (Like Gokstad) were robbed. Also, the conditions of the objects found are not always the best. Consequentally, reconstructing an object and where it was found is not always accurate. What we've found is not always what they had.

5. The destruction of archaeological sites by farming, rebuilding, and natural forces (damn digging rodents!)

6. What we haven't found and what we haven't looked at. We know lots about graves and towns in the viking age: what do we know about farms or farm settlements?

7. The bias of the archaeologist(s). Archaeology is full of political pressure, which wants to color the interpretation of what is found.

All of these considerations lead to doubt. Can we really, even with all the objects found, the sites discovered and then documented, speak in terms of "culture," much less a "purity" of such stuff? No.

100 years ago the vikings were seen as bunch of violent, maurding barbarians. These days, they're seen as cut-throat merchants, explorers and settlers who were no less violent than any other folks found at the same time. We see the past and the peoples who lived there with our own eyes. Years from now what we think is corrent may turn-out to entirely wrong. We are limited by the idea of "separate cultures;" it's a harder idea to think of two or more cultures from the same time having contact, but when you get right down to it, these contacts maybe to the only cultural element we can really discern. Or not.

Mord.
Keep calm and carry a bigger stick.
User avatar
Bob H
Archive Member
Posts: 21294
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Tri-Cities, TN
Contact:

Re: In Conclusion: A Caveat

Post by Bob H »

Those are some good answers, Mord. I like them even better because I agree. :lol:

Mord wrote: 7. The bias of the archaeologist(s). Archaeology is full of political pressure, which wants to color the interpretation of what is found.
The common trait I notice is the compelling need to make a pronouncement about what they've found. "We found this rock-like object and have determined it to be ... to be ... err, it's a frammy-stone for a 9th century pinderwhistleshticken. Very common device for the age, we've found hundreds of them." It's all very believable until you see the object, recognize its purpose, and then see it described in some absolutely ridiculous way. I understand that archaeologists are under pressure to produce, and I wish that weren't so.

Here's where living history, reenactment, experiential archaeology or whatever you would term it can contribute. These folks make many mistakes, too, but if the two extremes can cooperate both will be enhanced.
Mord
Archive Member
Posts: 9752
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:48 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA (looking at a wall)

Re: In Conclusion: A Caveat

Post by Mord »

Bob H wrote:Those are some good answers, Mord. I like them even better because I agree. :lol:

Mord wrote: 7. The bias of the archaeologist(s). Archaeology is full of political pressure, which wants to color the interpretation of what is found.
The common trait I notice is the compelling need to make a pronouncement about what they've found. "We found this rock-like object and have determined it to be ... to be ... err, it's a frammy-stone for a 9th century pinderwhistleshticken. Very common device for the age, we've found hundreds of them." It's all very believable until you see the object, recognize its purpose, and then see it described in some absolutely ridiculous way. I understand that archaeologists are under pressure to produce, and I wish that weren't so.

Here's where living history, reenactment, experiential archaeology or whatever you would term it can contribute. These folks make many mistakes, too, but if the two extremes can cooperate both will be enhanced.
I agree. But I wasn't only talking about personal bias and academic politics. I was also talking about political pressure from governments or other sponsoring organizations. Recently, I've been reading about "Nazi Archaeology" (the history of an academic discipline is very useful), and it turns out that some disquieting facts appear. The most comprehensive article I've read so far is "Archaeology in the Thrid Reich" by H. Hassmann in "Archaeology, ideology, and society: the German experience" (2000, ISBN: 082044782X). It's troubling to find out the H. Jankuhn was head the SS Ahnenerbe (Himmler's research section for race studies) from 1937 on.

As for living history and other re-enactment groups, their contribution, imo, is only valid if they understand the experimental nature of their activities. Their work must be documented, and that includes understanding the purpose of the work as well as the limitations therein. For instance, you can't conduct an experiment with arms and armour in battle since such work involves serious injury and the possible loss of life.

Mord.
Keep calm and carry a bigger stick.
User avatar
Owyn
Archive Member
Posts: 1277
Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 6:48 am
Location: Mountain Freehold, East Kingdom

Post by Owyn »

Hope I don't offend by re-awakening old threads here... I've spent the evening tracking this discussion through about a half dozen threads and scores of posts. Very informative, and I appreciate greatly the folks who have done this research!

It seems to me like the theories being suggested here have implications for more than the "viking" crowd, but possibly for a much broader spectrum of cultures in the era as well.

Mord seems to have suggested that mail might not have been as common an armor in the early middle ages as many have suggested. Now, if we assume for a moment that is true, then one of two things is also true. Either:

- Fighting was ONLY done regularly by a very small group of people - the wealthiest - who could afford the armor in question.
- Fighting was often done by people who were not wearing mail.

My own understanding of history leads me to believe the first scenario is unlikely - please correct me if I'm wrong, there! But that means that there were very often people out doing the business of war, but without the expensive mail. As Mord pointed out in one post, his Icelandic persona could afford a sword far easier than mail, and probably considered it a much better investment!

Now, I have been a soldier. And I can say from experience that there is a natural tendency to be very fond of putting *something* between you and whatever the other guy is using to try to do harm to you. ;) I cannot help but think that a mail-less person would want to use *some* sort of protection. Mord's mail-less Icelander might be perfectly accurate, but what then did he use to keep his insides, inside?

I know we're skirting the ragged edge here, with very little documentation that I've seen for non-mail armors in the period. I was wondering what folks who've studied this think the *next* step in logic might be, though.

If mail was not a common item, and if many people fought who did not have mail (some who might have been quite well off, just not ultra-wealthy enough to own mail), what then DID they use for protection from swords, axes, and spears?

Thanks for any thoughts and hard data. :)
Mord
Archive Member
Posts: 9752
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:48 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA (looking at a wall)

Post by Mord »

Owyn wrote:Hope I don't offend by re-awakening old threads here... I've spent the evening tracking this discussion through about a half dozen threads and scores of posts. Very informative, and I appreciate greatly the folks who have done this research!

It seems to me like the theories being suggested here have implications for more than the "viking" crowd, but possibly for a much broader spectrum of cultures in the era as well.

Mord seems to have suggested that mail might not have been as common an armor in the early middle ages as many have suggested. Now, if we assume for a moment that is true, then one of two things is also true. Either:

- Fighting was ONLY done regularly by a very small group of people - the wealthiest - who could afford the armor in question.
- Fighting was often done by people who were not wearing mail.

My own understanding of history leads me to believe the first scenario is unlikely - please correct me if I'm wrong, there! But that means that there were very often people out doing the business of war, but without the expensive mail. As Mord pointed out in one post, his Icelandic persona could afford a sword far easier than mail, and probably considered it a much better investment!

Now, I have been a soldier. And I can say from experience that there is a natural tendency to be very fond of putting *something* between you and whatever the other guy is using to try to do harm to you. ;) I cannot help but think that a mail-less person would want to use *some* sort of protection. Mord's mail-less Icelander might be perfectly accurate, but what then did he use to keep his insides, inside?

I know we're skirting the ragged edge here, with very little documentation that I've seen for non-mail armors in the period. I was wondering what folks who've studied this think the *next* step in logic might be, though.

If mail was not a common item, and if many people fought who did not have mail (some who might have been quite well off, just not ultra-wealthy enough to own mail), what then DID they use for protection from swords, axes, and spears?

Thanks for any thoughts and hard data. :)
Hmm...

I have read and re-read your post a few times, Owyn, and have tried to figure out how to answer you in as courteous a way as I can. So far, I haven't thought of any way of doing so: I apologize ahead of time if this post offends you or anybody else.

My thesis (what you call a suggestion) that mail armor was used by the wealthy is pretty much based upon the efforts of archaeologist, and to some extent, upon the work of Simon Coupland and his very useful article found in the 1990 edition of "Viator." Your post does not do this; you name no one; you do not document. For these reasons alone, I have reason to doubt your idea that mail was common in the Early Middle Ages in Scandinavia.

Furthermore, your refutation of my thesis is based upon the logic that all warriors were all equiped the same is simply wrong. In fact, simply looking at the grave finds at Birka (check H. Arbman's catalog "Birka II") refutes this. Some chamber graves have a sword, an an ax, a spear, a shield (in a few cases two shields: Grave # 736), and archery equipment. Some chamber graves have only a spear and a shield. Based upon this comparison, it can be seen that all warriors (either part-time or full-time) were not equiped the same. What this means is that only the wealthy (what wealth was for these people is a matter of social historical arguement) were the best equiped, not that only the wealthy were fighting.

Finally, what sort of defense did the warrior/soldier take with him to war as a defense? A shield. Evidence of shields, mostly as iron bosses, has been found from Iceland to Kiev.

Mord.
Keep calm and carry a bigger stick.
User avatar
Owyn
Archive Member
Posts: 1277
Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 6:48 am
Location: Mountain Freehold, East Kingdom

Post by Owyn »

I have obviously offended you, and I apologize!

It was not my intent to challenge your thesis at all. You very clearly have much more background on the subject than I do. You've done your homework here; I have not.

Rather, I was wondering what the next step in that line of reasoning would be. You've postulated that mail was rare in early Middle Ages in Scandinavia, used mainly by the extremely wealth.

I added the supposition (unsupported, so far, although I am looking) that if the above is true, then it seems likely a similar state existed in other areas of similar financial/trade level at that time.

What I said next was also not a challenge to your thesis - it was what to me seemed like the next step in logic:
Either:
- Fighting was ONLY done regularly by a very small group of people - the wealthiest - who could afford the armor in question.
- Fighting was often done by people who were not wearing mail.

My own understanding of history leads me to believe the first scenario is unlikely - please correct me if I'm wrong, there! But that means that there were very often people out doing the business of war, but without the expensive mail. As Mord pointed out in one post, his Icelandic persona could afford a sword far easier than mail, and probably considered it a much better investment!
I wasn't suggesting all warriors were equipped the same - that seems obviously untrue even to someone with a rudimentary grounding in this part of history like myself. If anything, I'm pondering "what else" were they equipped with? Assuming Mord is right, which I see no reason NOT to do! - we are looking at a situation where most fighters on any battlefield of the era were probably not wearing metal armor at all.

So what were they doing?

Like I said - I've been a soldier, and there is this natural desire to want to put something solid between you and the person trying to hurt you. ;) And if we're talking about a wide range of freemen who were armed but lacked the wealth for mail, then some of them should have had the wealth to devise other forms of protections.

What I was asking was what those sorts of protections might have been, and do we have evidence of them in the archeological or story-telling records of the era?

Put another way, if only one warrior in a hundred, or one in hundreds(?), was wearing mail - then what were the other ones wearing to keep from being stabbed, slashed, or otherwise injured? Shields, certainly, and what else?

(Edited a tad to clean up my messy writing and make sure I was being more clear this time - sorry about the confusion from my first post!)
Phil of Fibh
New Member
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:07 pm
Location: Scotland

Post by Phil of Fibh »

If anything, I'm pondering "what else" were they equipped with? Assuming Mord is right, which I see no reason NOT to do! - we are looking at a situation where most fighters on any battlefield of the era were probably not wearing metal armor at all.

So what were they doing?

Like I said - I've been a soldier, and there is this natural desire to want to put something solid between you and the person trying to hurt you. Wink And if we're talking about a wide range of freemen who were armed but lacked the wealth for mail, then some of them should have had the wealth to devise other forms of protections.
Mord has very kindly been through all the current eveidence for armour/protection in the "viking" area and period - the answer to your question is A SHIELD and their friends/comrades in arms (as far as we currently know based upon the evidence available)
User avatar
Owyn
Archive Member
Posts: 1277
Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 6:48 am
Location: Mountain Freehold, East Kingdom

Post by Owyn »

Phil of Fibh wrote:Mord has very kindly been through all the current eveidence for armour/protection in the "viking" area and period - the answer to your question is A SHIELD and their friends/comrades in arms (as far as we currently know based upon the evidence available)
Actually, Phil, I'm going to disagree. We have anecdotal, semi-reliable information from various literary and art pieces from the era that leather and cloth were used as armor. Now, without surviving relics of these sorts, we don't have any *firm* evidence that leather and textiles were used as armor in this place and period of history.

However, I feel Mord's excellent summary of the likely distribution of metal armor strengthens these bits of evidence and lends more credulity to them.

If metal armor was worn only by the wealthiest elite, then most people did not have metal armor. Most people, in fact, probably had no dedicated armor to wear (although they might wear their toughest jacket, say). However - we're left wondering about the folks who were still well off, but not in the upper class tier which allowed them to purchase metal armor. People like the fictional Icelandic character Mord mentioned elsewhere, his persona who had gathered enough money for a sword, but not for mail.

My hypothesis is that some of these folks who lacked the resources for mail had enough resources to invest in some cheaper form of protection: leather or cloth armor. If one warrior in a hundred had mail, the other 99 were undoubtedly wearing the best that they could afford, whatever that might be.

Put another way: if you were about to go into a knife fight, would you prefer to wear a t-shirt, or a biker's leather jacket? ;)

We know that even unhardened 8oz leather or thick cloth can help turn a blade (from modern tests - try it yourself, if you're curious). We know that these people used leather and cloth at least fairly extensively. And we know that leather and cloth fragments have only survived to us under a very few, very specific circumstances.

I'm certainly not willing to argue that this is conclusive fact. But I think logic would dictate that Mord's research lends much stronger credence to the idea that not only were leather and/or cloth armor in use, but that they likely saw greater use in the "Viking" period than mail did!
Mord
Archive Member
Posts: 9752
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:48 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA (looking at a wall)

Post by Mord »

In truth, Owyn deserves a much more in depth answer to his questions than my grumpy post of yesterday. However, such an answer will take not only some time, but some consideration of various elements that range from social historical considerations to the problems of process. I am really rather busy today (due to wonky technological processes not really working), and will probably have to wait until tomorrow, at the earliest.

Mord.
Keep calm and carry a bigger stick.
Dalloch
Archive Member
Posts: 1468
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2000 2:01 am
Location: Cupar, Fife, Scotland

Post by Dalloch »

I'm part way through what I hope will be a well thought out answer, but as you say Mord, these things take time. As does the piece of work I promised you. So much to do, so much else waiting to get done!
"I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are"
User avatar
Owyn
Archive Member
Posts: 1277
Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 6:48 am
Location: Mountain Freehold, East Kingdom

Post by Owyn »

Many thanks, both. I look forward to reading more about the subject - and already am, actually, since I am working to read through a chunk of source material my wife yanked out of her library that I didn't even know we had. :)

In the meantime, please do take the question-asking as it was intended - the response to your well thought out earlier posts by an interested novice to the subject who would like to learn more!
Mord
Archive Member
Posts: 9752
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:48 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA (looking at a wall)

Post by Mord »

In reply or response to Owyn (at least partially):

You bring up a fairly tough set of problems in your question. There are 2 parts within the answer. However, I will preface my post by pointing out that much of my education as a historian was in the realm of social history. With your question, Owyn, it's probably a good thing.

You've asked, "What did the middle class wear as armor?" if I'm not mistaken. You've also postulated the use of leather and textiles.

The part of my answer has to do with class in Early Medieval Scandinavia: just what made up the middle class? Sure, we can discuss the language of the class--the words, "bondi" among others comes to mind fairly quickly. But just knowing the word doesn't answer the question. Put bluntly, what makes a bondi? How do you determine a social class based upon the sources we have. Burial archaeology illustrates this problem nicely.

We look at inhumation graves and conclude that whoever was buried was probably fairly important. Many of these graves are well-marked in one form or another (burial mounds, psuedo-ship burials, etc.) and they provide much in the way of material resources. Also, such graves required some supervision and a good deal of labor to create. All of this points to some prestige of the deceased.

The same is also most likely true with Pyre Graves (or perhaps better put the remains of Pyre Death Rituals). Pryes--a form of cremation-was a spectical for all to attend and see. Also, much of the deceased's material goods (including, apparantly, a slave) was burnt with him/her. These sort of rituals denote some degree of prestige as well.

However, there are cremation urn graves. Here the deceased is cremated and the ashes are buried in a urn. Sometimes, but only rarily, is and object buried with the urn. What sort of class deserved this sort of burial. Would it be a middle class person, or was this reserved anybody beneath the prestige class of spectacular deaths? Answer is, yes, it was different, but, considering the nature of the burial, we simply don't know. A resource that can be used to understand the "nobility" of Early Medieval Scandinavia can not be used to fully understand the middle class of the same time and place.

More, later.

Mord.
Keep calm and carry a bigger stick.
Mord
Archive Member
Posts: 9752
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:48 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA (looking at a wall)

Post by Mord »

The 2nd part of my answer has to do with materials and process; namely, textiles and leather.

There is information about textiles. I am by no means an expert here (I would consider Mistress Thoria Sharptooth to be this), but I have read that there are 3 types of textiles found in Early Medieval Scandinavia: silk, wool, & linen. Silk was imported, and so expensive. I doubt that anyone from the middle class be able to afford it, and if they could probably wouldn't wear it in battle.

This leaves wool and linen. The question here is, do we have any proof that a fabric could be woven to be "quilted" or used as some sort of "jacket" in battle? How long would it take to weave such a textile? And what is the priority of such a weaving, taking the other responsibilities of a middle class bondi into account?

In other words, was there a fabric weave, and how long did it take to weave enough to make a protective garment? I have no answer to this question, but I suspect no one else has an answer either.

This leaves leather as material. Leather existed: it's been found a York, Ribe and Hedeby (in fact, there's an entire book about the leather finds at Hedeby). However, we should ask what leather was used for. Shoes, knife sheaths, pouches, and covering for shields is what we can prove. I suspect there were more uses for leather, but I've not read anything about them.

Also, take into consideration the tanning process. To this day, it is not simple, rather toxic, and not the sort of thing done in the center of any town. I suspect the tanning process was/is such that its use was prioritized. Shoes came before armor.

Finally a word or two of warning. I have posted this before: the "Viking Age" was about 300 to 250 years in extant and covered a large geographical area: the possibility for exceptions to a general practice and use of materials is distinct. That you've found an exception shows your research skills, but you must remember it's an exception.

Mord.
Keep calm and carry a bigger stick.
Arne Koets
Archive Member
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:03 pm

Post by Arne Koets »

now, if one had access to suffienctient matieral to make a 'jack' that doesn't mean they'd do it. One needs to have a concept of protection attached to the material to use it for that purpose.

Today, few architects would consider useing cow dung as a building amterial, and yet it has definate merits, it was widely used in dark age buildings though. In the minds of people it is not a viable option, even though they CAN understand that it would be if pointed out.

I doubt they would invest in cloth or leather. Leather is very soft and easily cut. Raw hide seems a batter candidate to me, but that is difficult to make into a nonrestrictive garment. Of course in the archeological record, leather and raw hide are difficult to distinguish between, as a peat bog will turn raw hide into leather (or even corpses into leather).
Raw hides are cheaper to make, as it is largely dried and maybe salted skin.

I do also think that in terms of making armour the level of research into articulation needs to be looked at. Viking garments are relatively loose fitting and simple affairs, making a thickly layered garment would take some considerable engeneering, and lots of cloth (20 layers of linen to stop an arrow? 30?, thaht would be at least 10-20 meters of cloth! that's a lot, linen wasn't cheap in scandinavia)

How do you get it to the battlefield? the ships were small and crowded, mail can be easily folded to be very small, descent cloth armour is stiff and bulky.

I think one would invest in a good shield first, maybe several, a spear second, maybe several, then a helmet, as that is the most important target and most deadly place to be hit, next a sword and lastly body armour, of any type.
Skill with a shield is the best protection against bladed weapons (including arrows) i know of.

I think Mords remark of time and place is very important. there is a great increase in wealth over the period for most peoples involved, and more organisation. The 'first' raids in the 8th century probably saw little mail or even helmets, the battle of Stamford bridge 300 or so years later could have had as many as 30% mailed warriors? lots more anyway.

society changed a lot in those 300 years and equipment with it.
all resistance is futile!
Arne Koets
Archive Member
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:03 pm

Post by Arne Koets »

In the archeological record (brika graves amongst others) it seems that the rivets on the edge of shields are shorter than the ones holding the boss, apart from extant examples, which show similar signs.

In other words, 'viking' shields taper in thickness from the boss to the edge. most of the time, anyway.

This makes for a very nice shield. they handle very well, are not too heavy but are very sturdy due to their thick centre.

I tried one from white pine, made from glued together slats, horizontally, with a wooden back slat/grip, recessed. it was edged in rawhide, stiched through the wood, but not faced at all (there are shields with paint on their faces). we hacked at it in various ways with a good quality sharp sword, when it was being held.

When presenting the face, the shield held up VERY well. the side edges are of course very vulnerable, the top edge trapped the sword, as it tried to follow the grain of the wood. thrusts had no chance. (with a sword)

What I'm saying is, that 'viking' round shields were well engeneered and effective, when used correctly.

Full metal edging seems rather rare (two examples? Birka) full leather/rawhide facing was not always used at all.
they're BIG.

With such big shields and effective protection, how much need is there for torso protection? The head is ecxposed when one wants to be able to see, as are the arms and legs. Yet there is next to no evidence for gauntlets of any kind for 'vikings'. The splint armour is Vendel, much earlier, as far as I think.

Anyway, if not hideously wealthy, get a good 80-95cm wide shield, 16mm thick tapering to 6mm, and it will serve you well!
all resistance is futile!
User avatar
Owyn
Archive Member
Posts: 1277
Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 6:48 am
Location: Mountain Freehold, East Kingdom

Post by Owyn »

Thank you for the replies. Some thoughts of my own in return...

On leather:
Leather was certainly known and in use for the era. We have archeological finds of various leather implements. And there are saga descriptions of leather having been used as a coat, even - at least in one case - of someone resisting sword blows with a coat of reindeer hide (Heimskringlasaga, by Snorri Sturluson).

There is also a single find of what are believed to be leather Roman-style cuirass: "Probably the leather cuirass was made in two parts - front and back - and held in place by the clasps and by a leather belt or harness." (Dress in Anglo-Saxon England, Owen-Crocker, p193). However, that find is Anglo-Saxon, not Scandinavian (although it is reasonable to assume trade). It's also part of a rather special burial, and therefore suspect. And it's a single find, without a duplication that I am aware of from the era and region. It's also a bit earlier than the "Viking age" as most people date it.

It's reasonable to believe many Vikings may have fought in leather, but that's more likely due to leathers having been worn as sea garments - protection from the sea, rain, and wind - than as armor. Leather most certainly DOES have an ablative effect against swords. The main reason we may not have found "leather armor" could be that it didn't exist - but that leather was worn in battle, because leather was worn as part of normal seafaring clothes.

Textiles:
Mord's quite right about the textiles available. I've also read theories that cotton was sometimes traded to the north, and treated there as a high value textile (although it was very cheap to the south, around Egypt). But for the most part, we're talking flax linen and wool for textiles.

The Scandinavians most certainly had weaving, and used both sorts of fiber for their weaves - both tablet and warp-weighted looms. (Owen-Crocker p284-290). Cloth was time consuming to produce, but not unduly so:
...in Scandinavia, the warp weighted loom, which was easily dismantled, was stored in a barn; when a blanket or garment was needed, the loom could be set up against the kitchen wall for the time required to weave it, perhaps a few days. (Owen-Crocker, p289)
I did a bit of experimental archeology to test the mettle of woven wool against a sword. I took one live steel reproduction of a viking era sword, one iron anvil, and one block of white pine laid on a concrete floor, a chunk of 8oz veg tanned leather, and one piece of woven wool.

Single or doubled, the wool was consistently split when laid on the anvil and struck with force by the sword blade. Wool against an unyielding surface seems to offer very little protection against a sharp blade.

The white pine laid on concrete offered different results. Single, the wool split in two blows out of five. Doubled, the wool split the top layer only once, and both layers not at all. In each case, divots of 1-3 mm were driven into the pine - not cuts, but indents caused by the force passing through the wool.

Skin, fat, and muscle tissue over most of the body is even more yielding than pine. It is therefore reasonable to assume that while a doubled shirt of wool would not stop broken bones, and might not stop cuts to the extremities or the skin above the ribs (where bones are nearer the surface), it likely would stop many cuts to more vital areas, such as the abdomen, kidneys, upper arms, and thighs. All of these are places where a cutting blow could kill.

Is it "armor" to wear two shirts when going into battle? Or perhaps to wear even a third layer? If the warrior did so in the hope of preventing some injuries, then I would say yes, it's a primitive and basic form of armor. It's also interesting to ponder what impact the oiled leather sea-coat would have when worn over two wool shirts.

To test that, I layered the leather over the doubled wool. Striking with the anvil under the subject, the leather split consistently with each strike, however, neither layer of wool underneath was damaged. The pine was even more noteworthy: with doubled wool under 8oz leather on the pine block, I could not cut through the leather! I tried about ten solid, full force blows, and while I left marks and dents on the leather, I could not cut through it.

None of these defenses would do as much against a spear thrust, but shields are fairly good defenses against spears - far better defense against a spear than they are against axe or sword. But it's against the axe and sword that the textile and/or leather garments that we know were worn as day to day clothes would have had the greatest impact.

Based on the above findings, I feel fairly confident that textile and leather were both effective in defense against weapons of the era. I also feel confident that they were used - if for no other reason, it seems likely that the people who didn't bother taking off the clothes they wore when traveling by ship likely survived more battles than those who 'dressed down'! Our lack of surviving leather or cloth armor could well have more to do with our own preconceptions of what that armor should look like. Rather than seeking out hardened leather cuirasses and 14c style gambesons, I suspect when looking for the "armor" these people wore, we should look instead at the clothes they wore in daily living, which served then well against the weapons they faced.


Submitted for your analysis and thoughts,
Owyn
Post Reply