A mail coif from Bulgaria

To discuss research into and about the middle ages.

Moderator: Glen K

Post Reply
Medka
Archive Member
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:20 pm
Location: Varna, Bulgaria

A mail coif from Bulgaria

Post by Medka »

Few day ago, some guys from my LH group and I were allowed to ispect and take measurements of a coif held in Provadiya museum. The coif was a random find, so no dating "in situ", but in my oppinion it could be from around 1270-80, central Europe. I base my speculations on the famous St. Mauricius sculpture in Magdeburg, Germany (URL here)
The main archeologist of the museum thinks that it's ottoman and could be dated 16th or 17th century. I, personally, have never heared or seen any evidence of the ottomans wearing mail coifs.
What do you guys think ?

Greetings,
Medka
Attachments
IMG_0434.jpg
IMG_0434.jpg (64.37 KiB) Viewed 1333 times
IMG_0439.jpg
IMG_0439.jpg (65.81 KiB) Viewed 1350 times
IMG_0443.jpg
IMG_0443.jpg (83.89 KiB) Viewed 1423 times
Russ Mitchell
Archive Member
Posts: 11800
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
Contact:

Post by Russ Mitchell »

I haven't, either, but not all the Ottomans were centrally equipped... variations are possible.

I'd look at that hook, and try to find any other parallels... off the top of my head, I think you're right.
User avatar
sha-ul
Archive Member
Posts: 10636
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:16 pm
Location: barony of vatavia,calontir, west of Wichita
Contact:

Post by sha-ul »

very interesting
Image
Image
Image
Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience
User avatar
Ernst
Archive Member
Posts: 8824
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Jackson,MS USA

Post by Ernst »

The square front and back lappet appear in a number of German sources besides the Magdeberg St. Maurice. Most are generally dated to the mid- to late 13th century, although one example might be c. 1180. I don't know much about Turkish armor, so I'd have to see examples of a similar form in that context before ruling out that possibility.

A very interesting find here--Thank you for bringing it to our attention.

Edit: Checking through my notes, the style persists in Sweeden into the 14th century as wirnessed by this coif from Wisby and painting from 1323.

http://www.djurfeldt.com/patrik/mailcoif.html
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
Norman
Archive Member
Posts: 4313
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
Contact:

Re: A mail coif from Bulgaria

Post by Norman »

Medka wrote:The coif was a random find, so no dating "in situ", but in my oppinion it could be from around 1270-80, central Europe. I base my speculations on the famous St. Mauricius sculpture in Magdeburg, Germany (URL here)
The main archeologist of the museum thinks that it's ottoman and could be dated 16th or 17th century. I, personally, have never heared or seen any evidence of the ottomans wearing mail coifs.
What do you guys think ?
Do you know why the archeologist thinks that its Ottoman?
For me the things that jumped out were not the square bottom but
(1) the full face cover
(2) the head shape made by adding a patch at the front

Perhaps its one or both of these that sway his opinion.

My understanding was that the full face generaly points to a non-European origin.
Norman
SilkRoadDesign Arts- http://www.srdarts.com
Armour of the Silk Road http://www.archive.org(www.geocities.com/normlaw)
JewishWarriors - http://www.reocities.com/jewishwarriors
Red Kaganate - http://www.redkaganate.org
Email kaganate&yahoo.com
User avatar
Ernst
Archive Member
Posts: 8824
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Jackson,MS USA

Post by Ernst »

Norman,

Coifs on the effigy of William Longsword, and one of the knights from Wells Cathedral both come to just below the nose. I think both of those sources are c. 1230.

Of course the odds of a 13th century coif surviving in such a good state of preservation are not nearly as likely as this being a more recent Turkish example. You and the curator are likely correct.

Do you have some visual references fof some Turkish examples for comparison?
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
User avatar
Milos N.
Archive Member
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:41 pm
Location: Belgrade, Serbia

Post by Milos N. »

Going the Geman way: You might try to compare the rough findpalce (if known) ie. village or district, of the find, with acticity of Teuton order. I know they've had more than one post in Northern Serbia and Romania, set up by Hungarian rulers in 13. c. Also, to check if and when were any German mercenaries serving in Bulgaria. That's to see if there is any significant likelihood of the coif being German.

Similarly goes for Turks. Check if there were any battles in the general area of the find, as well if it is on a Turkish marching route.

And, of course, there is a trivial solution, that it is Bulgarian. Lesnovo ha depictions of infantry wearing coifs/aventails, reaching up to their noses, under their kettlehats, so I assume that similar depictions could be found in 13.-15. c. Bulgaria.

The two-seamed, triangular forehead, could exclude western manufacture (based solely on depictions of Western coifs available to me), but the square flaps could indicate German provenience. Digging more into Turkish A&A could give you an easy answer.

Given the context of the find, you are most likely to figure out where it was most likely not to had have came from.

I would not speculate on the date on the basis of the contition of the find due to a) possibly well done conservation and b) the fact that there are two haubergeons in Belgrade Military museum in almost wearable condition that are dated to 14.-15. c. and the two Turkish hauberks are still usable, being dated to 16.-17.c.

I know I've posted more questions than answers, but I hope this helps at least a minuscule bit.
If you find anything wrong in your life, know that it is your own fault.


http://belgradearmourer.deviantart.com/
Medka
Archive Member
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:20 pm
Location: Varna, Bulgaria

Post by Medka »

Thank you all for your replies!

First of all, the upper part is normal circular weave. There are some links missing and other are fused together and that's the reason it looks like there is a triangulat patch (for better view - see attachments below).

Here are the two points of view:

Central European:
Pros:
-mail coifs with face protection were used in Central and Western Europe during the most of the 12th and well into the 13th century.
-the sqare bottom has parallels in European art.
Cons:
-no evidence of central europeans present in the area (but we do have information for import of european armour in Bulgaria via Serbia and we do have distinctive central european finds, such as the bascinet from Kazanluk museum)

Ottoman:
Pro:
-the presence of ottomans in the area for almost 5 centuries
Cons:
-no evidence of the ottomans using mail coifs at all (besides my late 14th century bulgarian persona, I also do mid 15th cent ottoman heavy infantryman)

I don't think that it's bulgarian made, because we don't have any pictoral evidence of a such coif. (By the way, Milos, I would like to see photos from the Lesnovo wallpaintings, if you have some)


Greetings,
Medka
Attachments
IMG_0444.jpg
IMG_0444.jpg (81.48 KiB) Viewed 1205 times
IMG_0452.jpg
IMG_0452.jpg (81.89 KiB) Viewed 2800 times
J.Junco
New Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:59 pm

Post by J.Junco »

Can you say dates about the rings? Form, diameter, solid rings, rivet round or wedge,...? It´s important for to know where the coif was made.
Thanks, very interesting coif.
Julio
Medka
Archive Member
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:20 pm
Location: Varna, Bulgaria

Post by Medka »

I'ts all rivited, ID is 8mm, the wire is ovoid and it's thickness is approximately 2mm. Looks like round rivits to me, but cannot be sure of that...

Greetings,
Medka
Russ Mitchell
Archive Member
Posts: 11800
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
Contact:

Post by Russ Mitchell »

Great. ANOTHER "doubled mail" candidate. :roll:

:D
I was thinking that the wire there looked very, very stout... good to know this is around, then.


Central Europeans possibly present in Bulgaria, or close enough for said coif to have gotten into Bulgaria, 12-13c?

Um, the Fourth Crusade? One piece of war booty taken from the royal ass-kicking the crusaders suffered at Adrianople satisfies this one, let alone all the fights along the Adriatic coast.
User avatar
Milos N.
Archive Member
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:41 pm
Location: Belgrade, Serbia

Post by Milos N. »

OK, here are the pics. I might catch a couple of others today in the library.

However, it could be gamboised cloth as well, simply due to the fact that the texture of the rings can not be discerned in this photo. :x
Attachments
Psalm 149:7 and 149:8
Psalm 149:7 and 149:8
Lesnovo9_resize.jpg (72.36 KiB) Viewed 2674 times
Aventails or coifs?
Aventails or coifs?
Lesnovo9_detail.jpg (78.52 KiB) Viewed 2674 times
If you find anything wrong in your life, know that it is your own fault.


http://belgradearmourer.deviantart.com/
User avatar
Ernst
Archive Member
Posts: 8824
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Jackson,MS USA

Post by Ernst »

How about this commonly reproduced German miniature in the British Library, instead?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... erman_.jpg


Medka first offered the similar and contemporary Sankt Maurice of Magdeberg:

http://www.arador.com/articles/stmaurice.jpg
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
User avatar
Milos N.
Archive Member
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:41 pm
Location: Belgrade, Serbia

Post by Milos N. »

Well, given the fact that it is a random find, we can only keep on guessing in an educated manner.

So far, all three analogies could be considered good guesses, but, all three lack one of those features of the original, that we could consider critical. German ones, do not have a face-flap, but have the square aventail-like flaps. The one from Lesnovo, has a face flap, but lacks the sqoare aventail, and, could be disputed wether it is a coif at all, but it is almost a local analogy.

The thing is, given that the coif in question is a random find, it can not be accurately dated, and therefore, its place of origin could not be tracked down. Had we been sure of the place of manufacture, it could be assigned a more-or-less wide time-frame of existence.

Right now, we'd have to find a perfect analogy, from an area that had proven historical contacts with that area of Bulgaria, and then, we would be able to claim that the coif could be from that specific area and that specific period, however, retaining a dose of skepticism.

From what I've gathered on the AA, it seems that the general opinion is that square-aventailed coifs are a distinctive feature of German mailling tradition. OTOH, I'm sure I've seen some similar coifs in an Ossprey book about Muslim arms in the Holy Land, but I can't figure out which one it is, and we all know how quality of Osprey book can fluctuate.


BTW Medka,
(but we do have information for import of european armour in Bulgaria via Serbia and we do have distinctive central european finds, such as the bascinet from Kazanluk museum)
Could you quote any written sources or books menitoning those imports. I have data regarding Serbia importing arms and armour, but I've got nothing about export of them. I'd be very interested to learn more about the subject, primarily so I could make a distinction of what was going through the area, and what was being maufactured in the area of medieval Serbia.
If you find anything wrong in your life, know that it is your own fault.


http://belgradearmourer.deviantart.com/
Medka
Archive Member
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:20 pm
Location: Varna, Bulgaria

Post by Medka »

Milos,
there is a deed ussued by Stefan Dushan (is it the right spelling?) in 1349, and later confirmed by Stefan Urosh (1357), where he forbids "export of arms to Bulgaria, by merchants passing through Serbian lands". It is presumed, that this concerned merchants, transporting arms and armour from Dubrovnik or Hungary to Bulgaria.

Greetings,
Medka
User avatar
Ernst
Archive Member
Posts: 8824
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Jackson,MS USA

Post by Ernst »

In Arms & Armour of the Crusading Era Nicolle notes, "Serbia later rose to regional dominance after defeating the Bulgarians in 1330...Their army consisted of feudal forces under local lords, strengthened by mercenary units made up of both locals and foreigners. Most of the latter were Germans, though Catalans and other Spaniards played a significant role in the mid-14th century." This would certainly open an avenue for German equipment to enter the area in the early 14th century.

Nicole also notes two mail shirts from Bulgaria with lapels offering chest reinforcement. It might be interesting to see the closure method for these. One 12th-14th century find was from Tarnovo, but is listed as 'current whereabouts unknown', but the other find from Mikhailovo is listed as inv. no. 643 in the local Historical Museum in Mazanlik.

I'm certain we can find examples of coifs with ventails in the early 1300s, or of coifs with square fronts. I'll look for examples containing both features.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
User avatar
D. Sebastian
Archive Member
Posts: 11463
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:01 am
Location: East - Haus VDK
Contact:

Post by D. Sebastian »

Milos N.
Where/when are those pics from?
What are they depicting?

Thanks!
SCA Demo .com
Like it? Link it!

Mattyds .com
(my site)
User avatar
Ernst
Archive Member
Posts: 8824
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Jackson,MS USA

Post by Ernst »

Another option would be a 3rd Crusade introduction from troops under Barbarossa. High face-covering coifs seem more popular in the late 12th-early 13th centuries. For example these coifs from Konrad's Rolandslied:

http://diglit.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/digl ... 1/063r.jpg

http://diglit.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/digl ... 1/071v.jpg

Unfortunately, separate coifs, especially those with square panels seem less common so early on. The only example I have found which might be interpreted as such is from the Bible d'Averbode from the Brabant (modern Belgium). An example exists in Osprey's German Medieval Armies 1000-1300, p.9.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
User avatar
Milos N.
Archive Member
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:41 pm
Location: Belgrade, Serbia

Post by Milos N. »

Thanks Medka,

That is slightly more specific than what is commonly mentioned, here in works of historians.
It is presumed, that this concerned merchants, transporting arms and armour from Dubrovnik or Hungary to Bulgaria.


...could be just that, because we know next to nothing about local arms and armour production. Only some data regarding weapons exists, and even that is mostly restricted to place-names and such. Almost all of the written stuff comes form Dubrovnik (Ragusa) and Kotor (Cattaro).

The correct modern spelling is Стефан Душан / Stefan DuÅ¡an, but that's OK for an English-speaking forum, as I assume more people would get the pronunciation right that way. ;)

Ernst,

Thanks for mentioning Nicolle, as he has the tendency to sum up the dominant opinions among local researchers and present it in a manner that gives a good general overview of the general state of thought regarding the subject. ...at least for the Balkans, AFAIK.

Sebestian,

Those are from the book about Monastery Lesnovo, built and painted prior to 1349, by affore mentioned Stefan Dushan's despot, Jovan Oliver, one of the most influential nobles in the country at the time.

It depicts Psalms 149:7 (To do vengeance among nations, Punishments among the peoples. ) and 149:8 (To bind their kings with chains, And their honoured ones with fetters of iron,), with the first half of each verse written above.
If you find anything wrong in your life, know that it is your own fault.


http://belgradearmourer.deviantart.com/
User avatar
Ernst
Archive Member
Posts: 8824
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Jackson,MS USA

Post by Ernst »

I presume Nicolle was referring to the Battle of Velbazhd:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle _of_Velbazhd

Objects without proveniece are always difficult. Dinosaur tracks from Texas riverbeds end up in New York, and ancient Egyptian artifacts are in London. My experience, however, is that artifacts in small, local museums generally have not travelled so much from their find site. I believe the museum in Provadiya is on the eastern side of the county, which would seem to favor Black Sea trade, so perhaps the coif is an import from some Italian city-state.

Are the routes of German Crusaders well known for the region? Is there a good chronicle of Barbarossa's march?
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
J.Junco
New Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:59 pm

Post by J.Junco »

May be this coif was otoman, later than XV century. I don´t know a lot about it but I think so.
-It is all riveted, very stranger before the XIV-XV Century.
-Too it is a big wire and round section, more usual in muslim mail, I think. The German mail was usually less than 2 mm diameter. And after XIII-XIV Century probably it was flat section. And so well preservated rings are posterior to these centuries. It had lost a few rings but the iron is in very good state.
- And it is round rivet, more usual in otoman, muslim mail and too before XIII Century or so, but the rings are too well conservated for that time.
Perhaps I ´m wrong :)
Julio
Ancel fitzCharles
Archive Member
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:44 am
Location: Akron, Ohio

Post by Ancel fitzCharles »

Russ Mitchell wrote:Great. ANOTHER "doubled mail" candidate. :roll:

Meaning....the wire is uncommonly thick?
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows--Epictetus
Russ Mitchell
Archive Member
Posts: 11800
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
Contact:

Post by Russ Mitchell »

Yes. We still don't know what was meant by "doubled mail," and suppositions run to twice the size, twice the thickness, twice as many rings (which would make six-in-one)...
Medka
Archive Member
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:20 pm
Location: Varna, Bulgaria

Post by Medka »

Erns,
some photos of the mail shirts from Veliko Tarnovo museum can be seen here: http://www.medka.snimka.bg/album.php?al ... id=4972094
The two mail shirts have no chest reinforcement, just slits in front, and they overlap a little, so the slit can be closed. It's the same with the shirt from Kazanlik museum (I was not allowed to take pictures in the museum)

Milos N. wrote: ...could be just that, because we know next to nothing about local arms and armour production. Only some data regarding weapons exists, and even that is mostly restricted to place-names and such.
Same here...

Greetings,
Medka
User avatar
Buster
Archive Member
Posts: 1151
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: A mail coif from Bulgaria

Post by Buster »

I agree that it looks 13th century European, not Ottoman. It's interesting to see how older mail seems to have been more heavily constructed, and used larger rings, than 15th-17th century mail.
Dan Howard
Archive Member
Posts: 1757
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:30 pm
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia

Re: A mail coif from Bulgaria

Post by Dan Howard »

Older mail is as varied as later mail. It is impossible to guess the date or where it came from just by looking at the rings. Without context to help, all you really have is the type of riveting and the tailoring. Personally I don't have a clue. The hook might provide a lead. The good condition of the links suggests that it isn't very old but without knowing where it was found, the condition of the links doesn't help much either.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment by Pen & Sword books.
User avatar
RandallMoffett
Archive Member
Posts: 4613
Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 1:01 am
Location: SE Iowa

Re: A mail coif from Bulgaria

Post by RandallMoffett »

We could also look at if this type of set up was used even in the later periods. To my understanding this type of mail coif is some what specific. That said some one could have taken something and modified it but I do not see evidence of this in the pictures but some one who really had some skills in this likely would have to see it in person to make a strong case for alterations or originality.

RPM
User avatar
Ottawa Swordplay
Archive Member
Posts: 382
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:51 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Contact:

Re: A mail coif from Bulgaria

Post by Ottawa Swordplay »

I am absolutely flabbergasted by this coif. I made my first coif in 1998, and used a hook closure exactly like the one depicted, and ever since have been telling people that I had no historical evidence for such a closure method.

It works so well that I always wanted to believe that someone else must have used it historically, but I try to be careful of such assumptions.
User avatar
Ernst
Archive Member
Posts: 8824
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Jackson,MS USA

Re: A mail coif from Bulgaria

Post by Ernst »

I finally found a manuscript image which seems to show a ventail flap on a square-front mail coif. This from a French Bible Moralisee dated to the second quarter of the 13th century, now in the Austrian National Library, Han codex 2554:
Edit: Folio captions are incorrect, These are not folio 46, but folio 37. Cod.2554 was re-bound out of sequence.
ONB Han Cod.2554 fo46r-7.jpg
ONB Han Cod.2554 fo46r-7.jpg (75.16 KiB) Viewed 1369 times
And a second example with an apparent round mantle, but still maintaining a ventail.
Attachments
ONB Han Cod.2554 fo46r-5.jpg
ONB Han Cod.2554 fo46r-5.jpg (75.76 KiB) Viewed 1368 times
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
Post Reply