The Armour Archive

I am looking for images of swords of the type that would have seen battle field useage in the 1550 onward to the end of that century, I know there are several raper styles, but they probably would not have been on the field at the same time as someone in full harness. thank you in advance

I'll post up some stuff for you later this afternoon (I've got a ton). I've got class first though... .

Get thee to Oakeshott.

You won't find a lot of 'rapiers', but you'll find a lot of swept-hilted styles on the battlefield. That may be a bit of an oversimplification, but I have generally found it true.

Baron Alejandro wrote:Get thee to Oakeshott.

You won't find a lot of 'rapiers', but you'll find a lot of swept-hilted styles on the battlefield. That may be a bit of an oversimplification, but I have generally found it true.

what is this "oakeshott"?




btw I hate critical errors

sha-ul wrote:what is this "oakeshott"?

No. You. Didn't.

Turn in your Illuminati card, please, and check your burgeonet at the door.

I'm just ribbing you. Mostly.

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewart_Oakeshott">Start here.</a>

Really, sha-ul... The Archaeology of Weapons (often ref'd AoW here); European Weapons and Armour; Book of the Medieval Sword.

The late Ewart Oakeshott made a lifelong specialty of the study of middle ages weaponry, extending at least lightly back to the Bronze Age. Tons of other medievalists were snarfing up the plate armor, which he also manifestly enjoyed, but he saw that swords were by comparison a neglected study. Singlehandedly over a long lifetime he set about to rectify that. We all sorrowed at his death a few years back.

What Oakeshott found of latter-sixteenth swords was they followed prevailing fashions in swordly looks to a remarkable extent. 16th-c. swords look rapierish, with elaborated ironmongery protecting the sword hand rather more prevalent than not, along with forms rather more resembling fancy furniture than the more or less plain iron bars that were guards in earlier eras. Guards and knucklebow bars seemed turned on lathes before being bent to make handguards. But there was a difference in their feel in the hand between the sword-for-dress and the sword-of-war. While the latter was near as ornate as a rapier and came with a blade only somewhat broader and every bit as slimly pointed, it's more blade-present and often a touch heavier -- but seriously, not by much. It feels, as Oakeshott put it, like it can cut a man's arm off. The rapier doesn't have that feel. It won't be quite as agile as the rapier, which was designed against an unarmored threat and for maneuverability to target said unarmored threat. Armored opponents OTOH needed something more prybar-ish and more generalist in its employment for cutting up guys in mid-melée just any old way.

Baron Alejandro wrote:

sha-ul wrote:what is this "oakeshott"?

No. You. Didn't.

Turn in your Illuminati card, please, and check your burgeonet at the door.

I'm just ribbing you. Mostly.

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewart_Oakeshott">Start here.</a>

I have seen it mentioned very briefly in passing here ie the wire wrapped waster grip, but to my recollection there have been no threads about it in my time here.

I did some searching on Oakeshotte& came up with this
http://www.oakeshott.org/Typo.html


however I don't see any swept hilt late period swords

looking here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakeshott_typology#Type_X
the latest mention of any is...

Type XVIII

Tapering blades with broad base, short grip, diamond cross-section. The subtype XVIIIa have narrow blades with a longer grip. Subtype XVIIIb have a longer blade and long grip and were in use ca. 1450–1520. Subtype XVIIIc: broad blade of ca. 90 cm.

1520 is still quite early in the 16th C

Dude! Go to a library! Get off the internet! Do not pass go! Do not collect $200! Go right now!

Baron Alejandro wrote:Dude! Go to a library! Get off the internet! Do not pass go! Do not collect $200! Go right now!

1 word that places serious impediments to that.....J O B eats up most all of my time

You got time to surf the archive, doncha. A lot of libraries I know (once you have a card from them) will let you ILL via their websites.

sha-ul wrote:I am looking for images of swords of the type that would have seen battle field useage in the 1550 onward to the end of that century, I know there are several raper styles, but they probably would not have been on the field at the same time as someone in full harness. thank you in advance

Actually it's fairly common to see swept hilt swords on the battle field. There's a whole bunch of robust swept hilt swords in the Graz collection for starters.

Go to library and look up "The Rapier and Small-Sword, 1460-1820"
by A. Vesey B. Norman (or A.V.B. Norman)


Richard

Baron Alejandro wrote:You got time to surf the archive, doncha. A lot of libraries I know (once you have a card from them) will let you ILL via their websites.

as to how I surf the archive I'll start a thread 'bout that.... clicky
I stopped off at the library in one of the towns I work in& sneaked a peak at their Coronado/Quivera museum
the girl at the counter did a search for works by Oakeshott& said they didn't have any.

richardcullinanau wrote:Actually it's fairly common to see swept hilt swords on the battle field. There's a whole bunch of robust swept hilt swords in the Graz collection for starters. that is what I am looking for, a swept hilt c&t sword appropriate for the late 16thC

Go to library and look up "The Rapier and Small-Sword, 1460-1820"
by A. Vesey B. Norman (or A.V.B. Norman)

ok I plugged in the book you mention,&

amazon.com wrote: The Rapier & Small-Sword: 1460-1820 by A. V. Norman (Hardcover - Jul 1980)
4 Used & new from $235.00

don't think I will be ordering that anytime soon.

I did however find this
http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item192.html

Armor.com wrote:#192 Town Guard Sword


A classic sidesword made for the Munich Town Guard, around 1610. This doubled edged cut and thrust blade mounted with a complex steel guard would prove an excellent weapon for the close quarters situations encountered in an urban setting. This sword would also be of the type advocated by George Silver in his treatise on the use of the sword. There are several surviving swords of this style in museums and private collections. The one replicated here is based on an example in the Wallace Collection, London.

The complex guard is hand made in steel and can be blued for an additional fee (see below). The blade is 6150 steel and is .25 inches thick. The balance point three inches in front of the guard allows a nimble action to this stout sword. This would be an excellent piece to add to your collection to illustrate the development of these exceptional fighting swords.

Original circa 1610, (A612) Wallace Collection, London

Overall L: 40 1/8"

Blade L: 31 1/2"

Weight: 3 Lbs

Balance Point: 3" in front of guard

$700.00
s/h - $36.00

but as per the description this puts me around 1610 not the 1575-1580 I was looking for, for those more knowledgeable, would this be "close enough" (I am actually hoping to plagiarize the hilt& look to adapt to rattan ) and maybe some day have something for C&T

sha-ul wrote:the girl at the counter did a search for works by Oakeshott& said they didn't have any.

I've have been sorely surprised if they did. That's why I mentioned ILL! You'd be amazed what you can get. See if they'll give you a card, see if they have a website you can log into, and submit ILL requests.

Baron Alejandro wrote:

sha-ul wrote:the girl at the counter did a search for works by Oakeshott& said they didn't have any.

I've have been sorely surprised if they did. That's why I mentioned ILL! You'd be amazed what you can get. See if they'll give you a card, see if they have a website you can log into, and submit ILL requests.

this is where I went

I doubt they have a library website.

http://skyways.lib.ks.us/towns/Lyons/library/


http://www.kslc.org/

[img]http://filmswords.com/images/alsostarring/adt2160.jpg[/img]

http://www.sword.cz/detail14.htm

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~wew/fencing/blades.html

http://picasaweb.google.com/annstout48/ ... 7523899330

First, you may wish to dig through Derrick's "Image of Irelande" for good illustrations showing sword hilts. Nice stuff, VERY period!

http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/about/bgallery/ ... eland.html

Second, you can peruse through the various articles and threads on MyArmoury.com. GREAT stuff there! This is their features page:

http://www.myarmoury.com/features.html

Good Luck!

Cheers!

Gordon

Armor.com wrote:#192 Town Guard Sword


A classic sidesword made for the Munich Town Guard, around 1610. This doubled edged cut and thrust blade mounted with a complex steel guard would prove an excellent weapon for the close quarters situations encountered in an urban setting. This sword would also be of the type advocated by George Silver in his treatise on the use of the sword. There are several surviving swords of this style in museums and private collections. The one replicated here is based on an example in the Wallace Collection, London.

The complex guard is hand made in steel and can be blued for an additional fee (see below). The blade is 6150 steel and is .25 inches thick. The balance point three inches in front of the guard allows a nimble action to this stout sword. This would be an excellent piece to add to your collection to illustrate the development of these exceptional fighting swords.

Original circa 1610, (A612) Wallace Collection, London

Overall L: 40 1/8"

Blade L: 31 1/2"

Weight: 3 Lbs

Balance Point: 3" in front of guard

$700.00
s/h - $36.00

but as per the description this puts me around 1610 not the 1575-1580 I was looking for, for those more knowledgeable, would this be "close enough" (I am actually hoping to plagiarize the hilt& look to adapt to rattan ) and maybe some day have something for C&T [/quote]

Looking at the Rapier and the Smallsword, this appears to be a Hilt type 57. It is dated in use from about 1585 to 1640.

-Antonio

Gordon, what are you wearing in this photo?

I'm wearing my "Dresden" by Arms and Armour, shown here on their website:

http://www.armor.com/rapier121.html

It is also shown here on myArmoury (the exact same one, in point of fact, I bought mine from Nathan Robinson):

http://www.myarmoury.com/swor_aa_dres.html?1

We had quite a discussion concerning it on the forum, so rather than go through it all here, I'll just point you to the discussion, and please feel free to ask questions that you may have about it:

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic ... ht=dresden

It's a very cool sword, but a BIG sucka too! DEFINITELY not a "mere" rapier! It definitely has authority behind it.

Cheers!

Gordon

Gordon, yours is almost exactly what I had in mind when starting this thread, it looks like in the late 16th C that even the swords for armoured combat had adopted the swept hilt look& as a side affect offered better protection of the fingers.

would it be possible for you to take about 5-6 pictures of this? left side,right side, front, back top& bottom with some sort of size reference?

Like I said earlier, I would like to make a hilt for rattan that looks similar to this type.
(ambitious ain't I?)

Sure thing, but most of those photo's are already posted in various places on the threads I linked to. And MUCH better photography than I can manage as well. Check through them, and let me know just what details you lack.

Cheers!

Gordon