The Armour Archive

Hi,

Does anyone have an example of a cloak that would be worn in 1461 AD England (+/- 10 years)?

Do they have hoods?

With thanks,

-Aaron

Aaron wrote:Hi,

Does anyone have an example of a cloak that would be worn in 1461 AD England (+/- 10 years)?

Do they have hoods?

With thanks,

-Aaron

It is hard to tell, because of two reasons.

1. A ton of surviving images that are 'English' from this eras, are the work of imported craftsmen, or are imports made for the English market, and

2. There isn't a lot of images of foul-weather gear. From almost ANY source.

Cloaks seem to have been worn, along with 'hukes' (a poncho-like garment), depending on dictates of weather and season. Wealthier people seem to have favoured short ones, my guesstimation being they didn't want to cover up their expensive gowns from sight entirely.

The images of cloaks I have seen, don't have hoods, rather seperate hoods seem to have continued from the 14th century, only changing in style of cut, and volume of fabric used (the lilripe goes out by the 1460's).

Ouch.

Well reasoned, well said and you are obviously a good scholar in this field.

I'll ask anther questions in this vein on this forum, but another thread. Could you help me out with that one too, please?

With thanks,

-Aaron

I would caution yo as using my musings as authoritative, and suggest to look directly to the sources themselves.

The largest collection of foul-weather gear imagry I have seen, is in Das Mittleateres Hausbuch (look to borrow a copy of "Venus and Mars" exhibition book). IMages are fairly numerous of mounted travelers, hunters, and soldiers in different forms of foul weather gear - but the source is Rhineland German, and c 1480.

The most profitable English source to look at would be misiricord carvings, I think.

I've viewed you as an authority on the 15th Century for over ten years. My view has not changed.

But I will look at the sources too.

With respect,

-Aaron

Aaron wrote:Does anyone have an example of a cloak that would be worn in 1461 AD England (+/- 10 years)?

Closest I've got at http://larsdatter.com/cloaks.htm (in terms of specifically English) is John Martyn.

chef de chambre wrote:The largest collection of foul-weather gear imagry I have seen, is in Das Mittleateres Hausbuch (look to borrow a copy of "Venus and Mars" exhibition book). IMages are fairly numerous of mounted travelers, hunters, and soldiers in different forms of foul weather gear - but the source is Rhineland German, and c 1480.

But if you can't get a copy of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3791319914?ie=UTF8&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=3791319914">Venus and Mars: The World of the Medieval Housebook</a>, many of the images seem to be online at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Categ ... ss_Wolfegg

Thanks.

Drat....I'm going to have to find another way to cover up the armour.

The "concept" is:

Sword-and-buckler kit, covered up, including the helmet. The knees are covered by the knee-high boots. The breastplate and arms and thighs are covered by a "T-tunic". The hard part is covering up the helm. I was looking at the hoods or cloaks as a good plan.

Help (even more)?

Cover your armour with a gown - I do it all the time, it actually makes it more comfortable to wear in the heat - metal transfering heat and cold and all.

At our last event, I wore my cuirasse for about 5 hours, with a gown over it - my legs roasted in full harness, but my cuirasse barely had any sweat in it at all. Very stylin', to wear a pleated gown over your armour.

I should point out, that all men would wear that third layer, the gown - even lots of labourers, except workers literally digging in a field.

Would something like this work? It's not 1461 AD...but it covers the bits I need to cover, I think.

With thanks,

-Aaron

I think (for a c. 1461 man's gown) I'd be looking at something like these:

• The Seven Sacraments Altarpiece, especially the bridegroom
• The Ordeal by Fire (especially the brocade gown in the left near background, and the green (?) gown in the right foreground)
• Portrait of a young man
• The Donne Triptych (it's later than what you're looking for, but Sir John was English, at least)

Etc. and so on. You can find a pattern for this sort of pleated gown in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0896762394?ie=UTF8&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0896762394">The Medieval Tailor's Assistant</a>, or Reconstructing History's <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001OTGHS0?ie=UTF8&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B001OTGHS0">15th Century Man's Gown</a>.

If you just want to buy one ready-made, look at Historic Enterprises' Pleated 15th Century Coat.

Karen has the right of it, it needs to be a pleated gown - most often the sleeves had long slits in them, so you could poke your arms out without having your arms covered by the gown if it was too warm, or for better dexterity.

link

Two mourners from the grave of duke John the Fearless made between 1443 and 1469. I believe that the mourners were made nearer the end of that period. Burgundian, not English however.

The only problem with looking at the pleurants is that what you are seeing is ceremonial mourning clothes, not worn in normal civil life.

I'd written a bit on mourners' clothing at http://larsdatter.com/wordpress/?p=500 in case that's useful.

Thanks for the help, but I'll have to go into the 14th Century so I can cover up that helm.

It's just an SCA sword-and-buckler kit, but I like to at least ask for help here before I go wildly down the wrong road.

Thanks for the help!

-Aaron

Aaron wrote:Thanks for the help, but I'll have to go into the 14th Century so I can cover up that helm.

Would a crest be too grandiose?
http://larsdatter.com/crests.htm

Aaron.
PM me with what you are trying to do.
I'll look in my library for help.