Will the BoTN change the SCA:s HF game?

[Eltz-Kempenich]

"Dude, go some place where they do what you want to do, instead of trying to change the4 SCA game of 40 plus years to be something it was never meant to be."

Wait, what? You got that all wrong. Everyone has the right to jockey for their own position, in any circumstance, for whatever reason. There is nothing that says that the SCA status quo cannot nor should not change. In fact, to continue to thrive, it must needs change in some regards. The SCA will be whatever we want it to be, and if the winds blow in the direction of more intense combat, so be it.

All of this has me really thinking I need to write a paper on BotN combat and the insights it has shed on actual medieval warfare. I think the similarities have been vastly underrated by some members on the Archive. The biggest point being that your weapons aren't going to kill a guy in armour. Stun him, knock him out, sure. But if you want your opponent dead, you incapacitate him by knocking him over and stabbing him in the face. There is a lot of good ethnographic data to wade through and start making sense of. From that historical perspective, we can perhaps begin to reevaluate what it is we want SCA combat to be about as well.

[PatternWeld]

Change comes but slowly to the SCA.

I can remember when playing with a fencing blade on the side, would get you banned from fighter practice.

I can remember when 90+% of the guys didn't want women in combat.

There are many many more examples. We as a society tend to cling tightly to our traditions right or wrong. Change is inevitable but it will only happen but slowly, in measured steps, or not at all.

[Antonio]

What, we're allowed to play with fencing blades now?

[Noe]

All of this has me really thinking I need to write a paper on BotN combat and the insights it has shed on actual medieval warfare. I think the similarities have been vastly underrated by some members on the Archive. The biggest point being that your weapons aren't going to kill a guy in armour. Stun him, knock him out, sure. But if you want your opponent dead, you incapacitate him by knocking him over and stabbing him in the face. There is a lot of good ethnographic data to wade through and start making sense of. From that historical perspective, we can perhaps begin to reevaluate what it is we want SCA combat to be about as well.

Yes and no. To get better data, you are going to have to run another series of fights using rattan weapons that allow thrusting -- or hell, big solid hickory sticks with thrusties if you want more pain to keep a similar threat level. Keep the idea that stikes will do little, but allow thrusting to "weak points" (I would actually try this will several definiions of weak points). People are going to have to be expected to have some control of their thrusts, since you are targeting groin and armpit (actually, when we use our plate as proof rules, sprung ribs from armpit shots are the biggest health hazard).

You will also need some kind of way to show the efficacy of these thrusts. The easiest (and therefore probably least authentic) is to assume thrusts to weak points as being disabling

In any case, I have a theory that lack of thrusting leads to more skirmish oriented combat, as fighters are will run around more independently. For example, a lot of the russian strategy seems to be -- and here I welcome and beg advice from the gentlemen who went to BotN -- to not focus your attacks on fighters trying to engage you, but instead to search for enemies engaged in your comrades and blitz them, preferably from behind. You might take a shot or two from the guy who is trying to engage you, but there is little chance of a disabling wound it is a good risk. As fighters start charging across the field, you end up with a very loose patern will little resembling a line of battle or mutual defence. What I want to know is what will happen to that pattern when you are worried about a thrust to the armpit or groin.

Please note, I am not criticizing BotN -- far from it -- I am merely stating that we can' base our conclusions solely on the results of a single sparring system.

[Nissan Maxima]

The guys who were really good at the BotN format , specifically the Russians, Poles, amd Ukrainians fought like hornets from a kicked nest. They buzzed around and stung you from the sides and back, always moving fast. Thats what they were way better at than us. Speed kills.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

#1 This whole BoTN thing has just re-enforced what I've been saying about armoured combat for years.

#2 There is a big difference in foot speed between a 44 and 24 year old guy.

[Xager]

The guys who were really good at the BotN format , specifically the Russians, Poles, amd Ukrainians fought like hornets from a kicked nest. They buzzed around and stung you from the sides and back, always moving fast. Thats what they were way better at than us. Speed kills.

Strikes with a run in the back and side is very effective in full contact fight.

I recommend either learn to do the same, or at least learn how to resist it.

I watched your team - a lot of people over 30 years. Not enough young people. In the commands needed various fighters: heavy-resistant tanks, which would have distract onto itself opponents; fast maneuverable fighters who can respond quickly and make attacks into the enemy's rear; strong halebardsmens - halebrdists (guys with halberd).

I saw a few fights with your team, but it seemed to me that you almost do not use kicks, which are often less effective than a halberd strikes. The best kicks I've seen make a fighter of our team Goryunov.

As for the question (BoTN change the SCA) - changes are needed. This is the view from the side. I think that what you saw on the BoTN many will like. In addition, you will need as much practice to reach the level of Euro-Asian teams. And it needs to hold as many fights. How much would you not watch the video and how many clever tactics you have not had decides everything decides just practice and experience.

[jester]

The SCA will not change to become the HMB and shouldn't. It may adopt aspects of HMB combat rules but it probarly won't. If it does it won't be for a couple of years until after SCA participants have had some more exposure to HMB.

[Nissan Maxima]

OUr HMB team will be bigger (more fighters ) and younger next year. We will spend a year working on learning from the teams who know how to do this. We want to give the good teams a better contest.

The SCA will change. It is always changing. But it will never be the HMB and it does not need to be.

[rhys]

[quote="
The SCA will change. It is always changing. But it will never be the HMB and it does not need to be.[/quote]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS RIGHT HERE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Kilkenny]

"Dude, go some place where they do what you want to do, instead of trying to change the4 SCA game of 40 plus years to be something it was never meant to be."

Wait, what? You got that all wrong. Everyone has the right to jockey for their own position, in any circumstance, for whatever reason. There is nothing that says that the SCA status quo cannot nor should not change. In fact, to continue to thrive, it must needs change in some regards. The SCA will be whatever we want it to be, and if the winds blow in the direction of more intense combat, so be it.

All of this has me really thinking I need to write a paper on BotN combat and the insights it has shed on actual medieval warfare. I think the similarities have been vastly underrated by some members on the Archive. The biggest point being that your weapons aren't going to kill a guy in armour. Stun him, knock him out, sure. But if you want your opponent dead, you incapacitate him by knocking him over and stabbing him in the face. There is a lot of good ethnographic data to wade through and start making sense of. From that historical perspective, we can perhaps begin to reevaluate what it is we want SCA combat to be about as well.

And absolutely nothing that says I can't tell people who want to destroy the existing game to make it into what their personal fantasy might be to shove off.

And if I - and the thousands of others like me who have been active for years in the game as it exists - with its gradual evolution - don't speak up and say no when someone pushes out their version of reinventing the game, then we might find ourselves looking at changes that make our game damn near unrecognizable and that utterly ruin it for us.

I absolutely do not have it wrong - however, you telling me that I do, the way you did... you're denying me what you're claiming for him.

No.

[Aaron]

OUr HMB team will be bigger (more fighters ) and younger next year. We will spend a year working on learning from the teams who know how to do this. We want to give the good teams a better contest.

The SCA will change. It is always changing. But it will never be the HMB and it does not need to be.

Hi Nissan,

In a perfect world, what team would you send to Poland?

I'm 43 years old and while I'm healthy for 43 years old, I know that when I compete against the 19 to 25 year old group, my endurance is horrible compared to them. I'm stronger than some but I know a younger team would do better.

I'll be on the Team USA Sparring Team to prep fighters to go, but if I'm picked for the team I'll view that as a failure for Team USA. We can do better than I.

-Aaron

[Xager]

Another little offtop. Someone here asked about the video. Here is pretty much video of battles with high-quality (BOtN 2012) - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=UU ... ature=plcp

And here (BOtN 2011) - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL ... ature=plpp

[Aaron]

Another little offtop. Someone here asked about the video. Here is pretty much video of battles with high-quality (BOtN 2012) - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=UU ... ature=plcp

And here (BOtN 2011) - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL ... ature=plpp

953 videos on the playlist, just for 2012!

Thank you Xager, and welcome to the crazy house we call the Armour Archive!

With thanks,

-Aaron

[Xager]

953 videos on the playlist, just for 2012!

Not really, only the last 105 of that list. The rest is from various festivals, qualifying battles, bugurt and tournaments. Also, there is an interview with fighters and a few funny videos. The owner of channel Yuri Spiridonov. He does a very good video with a good camera angle shooting.

[Aaron]

105 is still great!

Your English really isn't bad. I've heard worse from my in-laws who grew up near the Okefenokee Swamp in Florida. Their Redneck accent is so bad that it's barely English.

With thanks,

-Aaron

[Sir Guy]

As the Team reflected on BOTN we all did agree that we never heard the term "Excessive", come to think of it I never heard "Light" either.

[seabrig]

wow, who would have thought this little project would have created such a debate. I've read a lot of posts about we can add this to melee rules, we can add this convention or that. I never though BOTN would change the way SCA is fought. BOTN has connections to SCA because it was the biggest pool of medieval armored combatants in the USA. My best hope is that the idea of singles combat with steel weapons be added as another class of combat, i.e if you want to do it, great, if not great, or that deeds of arms where armour as worn be more prevalent. That would be cool. At the very least I hoped that people would see BOTN and say, "hey fighting in real armour is fun, I think I'll dump my sport armour and be a historical reenactor who fights in real armour" That above all else would be a nice change to see. either way, I dont think anyone has anything to worry about.

[Aaron]

We've been having armour vs. weapons debates for well over a decade on this site. But to see the SCA's best go up against young Russians who are using steel weapons in 360 and full body targeting, with the intent to cause enough pain so that the SCA's best cannot continue...this changed the debate. One question answered (can a young man with a sword lop off the arms of an armoured knight?) and more to be put back in (what about thrusts?).

It just changed the debate and made "over armoured" people like myself more acceptable to the SCA. Now they'll look at me and say, "Maybe he really just likes his armour, and a suggestion of plastic might be viewed negatively."

-Aaron

[Aaron]

As the Team reflected on BOTN we all did agree that we never the term "Excessive", some to think of it I never heard "Light" either.

With all due respect most noble Sir Guy, but the Xager writes better English.

[Bulby37]

Dat derr is fitein wurds!

[Saritor]

My best hope is that the idea of singles combat with steel weapons be added as another class of combat, i.e if you want to do it, great, if not great, or that deeds of arms where armour as worn be more prevalent. That would be cool.

We call it Cut & Thrust.

[seabrig]

My best hope is that the idea of singles combat with steel weapons be added as another class of combat, i.e if you want to do it, great, if not great, or that deeds of arms where armour as worn be more prevalent. That would be cool.

We call it Cut & Thrust.

are you saying that cut and thrust is = to deed of arms of fully armoured combatants using swords such as BOTN?
I'm not judging cut and thrust. Its a thing done with weapons and you get to wear some armour, cool, but its not what I had in mind when I think of fully armoured combat with steel weapons.

[jester]

My best hope is that the idea of singles combat with steel weapons be added as another class of combat, i.e if you want to do it, great, if not great, or that deeds of arms where armour as worn be more prevalent. That would be cool.

We call it Cut & Thrust.

are you saying that cut and thrust is = to deed of arms of fully armoured combatants using swords such as BOTN?
I'm not judging cut and thrust. Its a thing done with weapons and you get to wear some armour, cool, but its not what I had in mind when I think of fully armoured combat with steel weapons.

People who have not thoughtfully read the rules regarding cut and thrust and done a little out of the box thinking would be very surprised by what the rules allow.

[Xager]

105 is still great!

Your English really isn't bad. I've heard worse from my in-laws who grew up near the Okefenokee Swamp in Florida. Their Redneck accent is so bad that it's barely English.

With thanks,

-Aaron

I will give thanks to Google Translate. Only because of him my text can be understood. I read in English more or less normal, but that the experience of writing I have very little. Practicing on you .


About video - watch and learn. In those videos you can see the tactics and strategies in fighting 5v5. Useful features. Surely you are there for a lot of useful information. Also see these records is very cool. It's like watching hockey. Get some beer and cheer with friends.

[Sir Guy]

Aaron, where did you get the idea that any of us left the field becuase we were caused enough pain that we could not endure? We had one Knight get a double concussion, the second time he got concussed or whatever and woke up from being knocked out he came up swinging. .

We've been having armour vs. weapons debates for well over a decade on this site. But to see the SCA's best go up against young Russians who are using steel weapons in 360 and full body targeting, with the intent to cause enough pain so that the SCA's best cannot continue...this changed the debate. One question answered (can a young man with a sword lop off the arms of an armoured knight?) and more to be put back in (what about thrusts?).

It just changed the debate and made "over armoured" people like myself more acceptable to the SCA. Now they'll look at me and say, "Maybe he really just likes his armour, and a suggestion of plastic might be viewed negatively."

-Aaron

[Sir Guy]

TRUE, my wife tells me I am a horrible at it. My job in Japan was to write reports and the editors hated me.

me need a squire to write for me.

GLAUKOS!!!!!

As the Team reflected on BOTN we all did agree that we never the term "Excessive", some to think of it I never heard "Light" either.

With all due respect most noble Sir Guy, but the Xager writes better English.

[Aaron]

Sir Guy,

They had the intent to cause pain, and you guys either (a) didn't feel it or (b) didn't show it. You didn't leave the field due to pain or injury, even with the best attempts by some powerful opponents. This speaks to the durability of the armour and those who wear the armour. Younger (sometimes 30 years younger), skilled, healthy fighters with steel weapons, 360 degree, full body targeting and intent to caues pain...and you guys still were up and doing well. Steel in the armour and steel in the fighters overcame steel in the weapons.

-Aaron

Aaron, where did you get the idea that any of us left the field becuase we were caused enough pain that we could not endure? We had one Knight get a double concussion, the second time he got concussed or whatever and woke up from being knocked out he came up swinging. .

We've been having armour vs. weapons debates for well over a decade on this site. But to see the SCA's best go up against young Russians who are using steel weapons in 360 and full body targeting, with the intent to cause enough pain so that the SCA's best cannot continue...this changed the debate. One question answered (can a young man with a sword lop off the arms of an armoured knight?) and more to be put back in (what about thrusts?).

It just changed the debate and made "over armoured" people like myself more acceptable to the SCA. Now they'll look at me and say, "Maybe he really just likes his armour, and a suggestion of plastic might be viewed negatively."

-Aaron

[Aaron]

IMO, those SCA fighters who went to BotN were the SCA's best and you were able to withstand intended-to-be-very-painful beatings with steel weapons. This is an excellent point about the durability of the fighers AND the armour IMO.

-Aaron

[Sir Guy]

That is more clear. Sorry. I think we have a quote someplace on there that thew Russians oldest guy was 28 and he is retiring!!!

Ice's armor did protect me and keep me going.

Sir Guy,

They had the intent to cause pain, and you guys either (a) didn't feel it or (b) didn't show it. You didn't leave the field due to pain or injury, even with the best attempts by some powerful opponents. This speaks to the durability of the armour and those who wear the armour. Younger (sometimes 30 years younger), skilled, healthy fighters with steel weapons, 360 degree, full body targeting and intent to caues pain...and you guys still were up and doing well. Steel in the armour and steel in the fighters overcame steel in the weapons.

-Aaron

Aaron, where did you get the idea that any of us left the field becuase we were caused enough pain that we could not endure? We had one Knight get a double concussion, the second time he got concussed or whatever and woke up from being knocked out he came up swinging. .

We've been having armour vs. weapons debates for well over a decade on this site. But to see the SCA's best go up against young Russians who are using steel weapons in 360 and full body targeting, with the intent to cause enough pain so that the SCA's best cannot continue...this changed the debate. One question answered (can a young man with a sword lop off the arms of an armoured knight?) and more to be put back in (what about thrusts?).

It just changed the debate and made "over armoured" people like myself more acceptable to the SCA. Now they'll look at me and say, "Maybe he really just likes his armour, and a suggestion of plastic might be viewed negatively."

-Aaron

[Xager]

That is more clear. Sorry. I think we have a quote someplace on there that thew Russians oldest guy was 28 and he is retiring!!!

I have not heard about this. If people and go over time, it is not because of age. We have people older than 30. For example Zimin Andrey Leonidovich (build year - 1977). He was the captain of our team on BOtN in 2010 and 2011 years. This year I have not seen him. Here he is on top - http://www.battleofthenations.com.ua/team_ru.php It is also - Shmyrov Oleg (1976), Kulenkov Alexander (1977) and anothers.

That so few of them due to the fact that the movement so far is young. In North America rekonstruktion movement is much older. Because of this you have a lot of people over 30. With age, the course becomes more difficult to fight. That's why I said earlier that you need to attract more young fighters. Organize special fights on the iron to demonstrate for young people how cool is it and how it dangerous. Youngs like danger and great show. Show them that you are not just cranks with wooden swords. IMHO

[Nissan Maxima]

Ha! But we are cranks with wooden swords. If HMB had existed when I was a kid I would have jumped at it. Of course I am an old man and I jumped at it.

Hey Xager, For reference, how old are you? I just want to know if I have armour older than you.

[Aaron]

You can jump?

[MJBlazek]

I'm only 31. And I am a crank with a Wooden Sword.
I will support Team USA in any way I can. But I can't take the chance of being seriously injured. Call me a wuss, call me a pussy, I just have different priorities. Not better, not worse, just different.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

The Youngest SCA Knight in the West Kingdom is 30. The 2nd Youngest is 35. I think the rest of us are 40+.