Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
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Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
A thread linked from the “Blackened Chainmaille” thread (link) reminded me that while its commonly said that medieval Europeans cleaned maille by rolling it with sand and vinegar, I can't recall a source for the abrasive, just documents which mention barrels for rolling maille. The use of sand and vinegar is stated as a fact without a source at Singman and McLean First Edition p. 153 and Paul B. Newman, Daily Life in the Middle Ages (2000) p. 205. Its certainly widespread: one can find it here, on various gaming and history forums, and even in A Clash of Kings. Since George R.R. Martin seems to know so little about low-tech kit, if he believes something it must be a very common meme.
It makes sense that an abrasive like sand or rags would have been needed inside the barrel, but I'm curious if anyone knows of any evidence. I'm also curious if we know how the barrels were rolled. Modern maille owners seem to have success with tumbling maille with rice, rags, nutshells, and woodchips among other materials which could have been used by medieval people. On the other hand, "could have" is not the same as "did." (edit: s/rage/rags)
The most accessible source of this theory seems to be Ffoulkes, The Armourer and His Craft (1912) p. 79: “Item xx s. xj. d. in duobus saccis de coreo pro armatura comitis: This refers to leather sacks used either for keeping the armour in or for cleaning it by shaking it with sand and vinegar.” Although he does not cite a source, based on the medieval documents quoted it seems to go back to an anonymous article in The Archaeological Journal Vol. 11 (1854) p. 386 (later cited in Vol. 19 (1862) p. 163) which cites a document with an entry one barrel “pro armaturis rollandis” and states that “Armour of mail was cleaned from rust by a simple process of friction, namely by rolling it in a barrel, probably with sand... Eastern nations, by whom mail is still worn, brighten it, as Sir S. Meyrick observes, by shaking it in a sack with bran and sand.” Does anyone know of better evidence or an older source for this idea? I may dig out a copy of Meyrick and see what he said. I would be chastened to learn that I have been repeating one of his guesses as fact without realizing it, and intrigued to learn which "Eastern nations" were using bran and sand in Meyrick's day.
Edit: According to Sean Powell viewtopic.php?f=1&t=157296&p=2379723#p2379723 , Biringucio suggests that one shake a newly carburized haubergeon in vinegar, but does not mention any abrasive.
It makes sense that an abrasive like sand or rags would have been needed inside the barrel, but I'm curious if anyone knows of any evidence. I'm also curious if we know how the barrels were rolled. Modern maille owners seem to have success with tumbling maille with rice, rags, nutshells, and woodchips among other materials which could have been used by medieval people. On the other hand, "could have" is not the same as "did." (edit: s/rage/rags)
The most accessible source of this theory seems to be Ffoulkes, The Armourer and His Craft (1912) p. 79: “Item xx s. xj. d. in duobus saccis de coreo pro armatura comitis: This refers to leather sacks used either for keeping the armour in or for cleaning it by shaking it with sand and vinegar.” Although he does not cite a source, based on the medieval documents quoted it seems to go back to an anonymous article in The Archaeological Journal Vol. 11 (1854) p. 386 (later cited in Vol. 19 (1862) p. 163) which cites a document with an entry one barrel “pro armaturis rollandis” and states that “Armour of mail was cleaned from rust by a simple process of friction, namely by rolling it in a barrel, probably with sand... Eastern nations, by whom mail is still worn, brighten it, as Sir S. Meyrick observes, by shaking it in a sack with bran and sand.” Does anyone know of better evidence or an older source for this idea? I may dig out a copy of Meyrick and see what he said. I would be chastened to learn that I have been repeating one of his guesses as fact without realizing it, and intrigued to learn which "Eastern nations" were using bran and sand in Meyrick's day.
Edit: According to Sean Powell viewtopic.php?f=1&t=157296&p=2379723#p2379723 , Biringucio suggests that one shake a newly carburized haubergeon in vinegar, but does not mention any abrasive.
Last edited by Sean M on Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
Not uncommonly, ffoulkes oversteps in his translation, as pro armatura comitis is simply "for keeping armor". Why he thinks these have anything to do with cleaning is puzzling.Sean Manning wrote: The most accessible source of this theory seems to be Ffoulkes, The Armourer and His Craft (1912) p. 79: “Item xx s. xj. d. in duobus saccis de coreo pro armatura comitis: This refers to leather sacks used either for keeping the armour in or for cleaning it by shaking it with sand and vinegar.”
Ffoulkes continues to give his reasoning on page 79, "The mail was placed inside with sand and vinegar and rolled and shaken. The same method is still practised in some disticts for cleaning barrels for cider or ale. Chains are placed in the barrel with sand to obtain the same result."
It seems he presumes the method used to clean barrels was the same as the method to clean mail, without any evidence or citations. I'll go back and look at some of Meyrick's sources, but I never recall any documentation for sand and vinegar.
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
I'm actually not sure how that scribe intended comitis to be understood. What word do you read it as? Comes “companion, associate” doesn't make sense and comere “to form, arrange, decorate” would give the perfect passive participle comptum. Perhaps its a loanword or a medieval spelling? I don't know any medieval vernacular. I agree that a leather bag for armour is more likely an armour carrier than an armour cleaner.Ernst wrote:Not uncommonly, ffoulkes oversteps in his translation, as pro armatura comitis is simply "for keeping armor". Why he thinks these have anything to do with cleaning is puzzling.Sean Manning wrote: The most accessible source of this theory seems to be Ffoulkes, The Armourer and His Craft (1912) p. 79: “Item xx s. xj. d. in duobus saccis de coreo pro armatura comitis: This refers to leather sacks used either for keeping the armour in or for cleaning it by shaking it with sand and vinegar.”
However, it doesn't really matter, as references to barrels for rolling/tumbling/rocking maille are numerous. If Meyrick's source was accurate it looks like we have two anthropological parallels for sand as the abrasive (although does Ffoulkes mean that chains were cleaned by rocking them with sand inside a barrel, or that barrels were cleaned by rocking them with sand and chains inside?) The barrel “cum suis pertineis” which Ffoulkes cites from a document of 1423 does suggest that there was something inside the barrel. (Edit: s/althouth/although)
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=commit
I think ffoulkes is clear that the sand and chains were for cleaning the barrel, not for cleaning the chain, though that might well be a consequence. The 1423 barrel with "pertinent" things tells us the barrel was used with something, but was that something media and/or liquid inside the barrel, mechanisms outside it to make rocking and rolling less strenuous, or rags and oil used to clean up the mail after it was removed? Still no hard evidence for sand and vinegar IMHO.
to entrust armor to = to keep armor inCommit
late 14c., "to give in charge, entrust," from L. committere "to unite, connect, combine; to bring together,"
I think ffoulkes is clear that the sand and chains were for cleaning the barrel, not for cleaning the chain, though that might well be a consequence. The 1423 barrel with "pertinent" things tells us the barrel was used with something, but was that something media and/or liquid inside the barrel, mechanisms outside it to make rocking and rolling less strenuous, or rags and oil used to clean up the mail after it was removed? Still no hard evidence for sand and vinegar IMHO.
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
Comitis is the genitive singular of comes.
Pro armatura comitis, therefore, is pretty rock-basic. "For the comes' armour."
Pro armatura comitis, therefore, is pretty rock-basic. "For the comes' armour."
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
Russ, I think you are right. I mostly read Classical Latin, so had forgotten that comes can be "count" in Medieval Latin. The 1862 publication even capitalized Comitis. That gives a phrase which follows the rules of Latin spelling and grammar and uses common words (and helps to explain the high price): “Two sacks of leather for the armour of the count.” Which makes it hard to understand how it was ever associated with cleaning armour in the first place ...
Ernst, what form of committere are you thinking of? I can't think of any form which would be spelled commitis or comitis and make sense grammatically.
Ernst, what form of committere are you thinking of? I can't think of any form which would be spelled commitis or comitis and make sense grammatically.
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
I'll yield to Russ and you on this. My Latin is rustier than mail!
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
Actually, it's worse than that, Ernst. Comes can also occasionally be synonymous with "knight," as a further complication of the godawful "miles debate." (which is why I left comes untranslated)
Ernst: full disclosure, my latin sucks, too. The freightyard paid my way through school, but it was no place to memorize vocabulary.
Ernst: full disclosure, my latin sucks, too. The freightyard paid my way through school, but it was no place to memorize vocabulary.
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
Latin is a language,
Dead as Dead Can Be,
First it Killed the Romans,
Now It's Killing Me.
Learned that before Mica, mica, parva stella and moving on to Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres,but have clearly forgotten more than I learned.
Dead as Dead Can Be,
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Now It's Killing Me.
Learned that before Mica, mica, parva stella and moving on to Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres,but have clearly forgotten more than I learned.
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
On medieval feudal coinage, "COMES" is often used in the inscriptions of the coinage of counties.
Typically "COMES <NAME>" / "<NAME> COMES" or "COMES DE <PLACE>"
Inscriptions like this appear to be most common in the 12th and 13th centuries, with a tiny handful in the 14th century. The latest example I'm aware of is Amedeus VI of Savoy (1343-83): +COMES:DE:SABAVOIE
-Derian.
Typically "COMES <NAME>" / "<NAME> COMES" or "COMES DE <PLACE>"
Inscriptions like this appear to be most common in the 12th and 13th centuries, with a tiny handful in the 14th century. The latest example I'm aware of is Amedeus VI of Savoy (1343-83): +COMES:DE:SABAVOIE
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
The source comes from Edward I's Ministers' Accounts circa 1294-1296 (regnal years 23 and 24) for the Dutch of Lancaster, so I wonder if comes might just mean "lord" in this context. No doubt it would be easier to understand if we had the whole document.
I would be interested in any other medieval sources relevant to this (especially pictures!) At present I'm only a dabbler in the history of this millennium. My library doesn't have a copy of Samuel Rush Meyrick's book, so I can't see what he had to say without interlibrary loan.
I would be interested in any other medieval sources relevant to this (especially pictures!) At present I'm only a dabbler in the history of this millennium. My library doesn't have a copy of Samuel Rush Meyrick's book, so I can't see what he had to say without interlibrary loan.
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
I've only ever learned classical latin so can't help much, but I think Russ is spot on. Looks like "for the armour of the count (comes)" is the right translation.
So are there any other sources describing mail being cleaned in barrels with sand and vinegar? I read somewhere that urine was also sometimes used but I'll bet that there is nothing to support that either.
Great thread BTW.
So are there any other sources describing mail being cleaned in barrels with sand and vinegar? I read somewhere that urine was also sometimes used but I'll bet that there is nothing to support that either.
Great thread BTW.
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
Well, as vinegar is acidic, I would rather not have that stuff seeping into my rivet joints.
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
I don't see a problem in theory. The acid is pretty weak and shouldn't be in contact long enough to damage the armour. You take it out of the barrel, rinse it in clean water, and let it dry in the sun.
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
Ernst was the one who gave me the idea. We have been quarreling a bit, but I did notice him point out in the thread to which he had linked that he had not seen a source for the sand and vinegar theory. That got me curious, and I started to be very suspicious when I noticed that even good sources repeated it without explaining how they knew.
Has anyone tried just tumbling maille on its own? My only hauberk is galvanized so I've never had to clean it.
Has anyone tried just tumbling maille on its own? My only hauberk is galvanized so I've never had to clean it.
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
Quarrel is too strong. Debate is why we're here.
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
I've heard of using sand, but not necessarily vinegar. I would've thought that sand on its own would be abrasive enough if the hauberk was agitated, or rolled in a barrel as it were. I would guess you'd have to do it for some time though, not in 5 or 10 minutes. As my hauberk's also galvanized, I've never had to clean it either.
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
There is a Dutch 14th century source for the use of bran to clean armour.
Rolling maille around in bran, which is relatively rough and rich in oil, makes kinda sense.
Rolling maille around in bran, which is relatively rough and rich in oil, makes kinda sense.
Bertus Brokamp
Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
Galleron
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
An interesting read, but again speculative as the referenced works are late-19th and early 20th century. Bertus may take a while to dig up his primary, but it's likely to be of more help.Galleron wrote:http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... -mail.html
FWIW the alliterative Gawain reference to "rokking" the rust off the byrnie--
He called to his chamberlayn, þat cofly hym swared,
And bede hym bryng hym his bruny and his blonk sadel;
Þat oþer ferkez hym vp and fechez hym his wedez,
And grayþez me Sir Gawayn vpon a grett wyse.
Fyrst he clad hym in his cloþez þe colde for to were,
And syþen his oþer harnays, þat holdely watz keped,
Boþe his paunce and his platez, piked ful clene,
Þe ryngez rokked of þe roust of his riche bruny;
And al watz fresch as vpon fyrst, and he watz fayn þenne
to þonk;
He hade vpon vche pece,
Wypped ful wel and wlonk;
Þe gayest into Grece,
Þe burne bede bryng his blonk.
Last edited by Ernst on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
rust spots add character! right?
pain heals
chicks dig scars
glory lasts forever
chicks dig scars
glory lasts forever
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
Two weeks ago I bought a book with transcriptions of the household accounts of the count of Holland in 1358-1361, so this find is quite fresh.
On page 465 (account of 1360-61) it reads:
... ghelevert toten hoenre behoef ende in den stal ende in de haernasch camere thaernasch mede te scuren binnen der tijt voerseide: 13 achtendel zemele
'... delivered for the chickens need and in the stables and in the armour room, to scour the armour with, within the time aforementioned: 13 -X volume- bran'
Apparantly the 'achtendeel' was a volume of some 34 litres in the year 1810.
On page 465 (account of 1360-61) it reads:
... ghelevert toten hoenre behoef ende in den stal ende in de haernasch camere thaernasch mede te scuren binnen der tijt voerseide: 13 achtendel zemele
'... delivered for the chickens need and in the stables and in the armour room, to scour the armour with, within the time aforementioned: 13 -X volume- bran'
Apparantly the 'achtendeel' was a volume of some 34 litres in the year 1810.
Bertus Brokamp
Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
Can haernasch be generically used for armor, including mail, or is it's use more restricted to items of plate?
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
An excellent find!Bertus Brokamp wrote:Two weeks ago I bought a book with transcriptions of the household accounts of the count of Holland in 1358-1361, so this find is quite fresh.
On page 465 (account of 1360-61) it reads:
... ghelevert toten hoenre behoef ende in den stal ende in de haernasch camere thaernasch mede te scuren binnen der tijt voerseide: 13 achtendel zemele
'... delivered for the chickens need and in the stables and in the armour room, to scour the armour with, within the time aforementioned: 13 -X volume- bran'
Apparantly the 'achtendeel' was a volume of some 34 litres in the year 1810.
Galleron
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
Well, more the other way around. 'Harnas' (in all its ways of spelling) was generically used for armour, but in some regions it was (sometimes?) more specifically used to denote mail armour.Ernst wrote:Can haernasch be generically used for armor, including mail, or is it's use more restricted to items of plate?
For instance there are two account entries (1395 and 1399) from the duchy of Guelders (nowadays Dutch province of Gelderland) where just mail armour pieces are bought from a harnasmaker. And there is the harnasmakers guild in the north-german city of Lübeck. In 1433 it was stipulated that when an apprentice harnasmaker wanted to become a master himself, he should be able to make a haubergeon and a coif.
Bertus Brokamp
Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
Good to know! In German, it seems the other way round, where panzer specifically refers to mail and generally to armor, while harnisch is plate. I'd say this provides more evidence for bran than for sand in the cleaning process.
Thanks Bertus.
Thanks Bertus.
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
SeanSean Manning wrote: Has anyone tried just tumbling maille on its own? My only hauberk is galvanized so I've never had to clean it.
I've tumbled my mild steel aventail on it's own in a hessian sack in a old clothes dryer. It does polish up the bulk of the mail, doesn't remove rust from the crevices & doesn't do the leather band much good. I've taken to using a soda blaster in my dust booth.
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
I think the word undergoes a similar change in meaning as the Greek hoplon. Harnas initially apparently meant something like "gear" or "equipment" (just like hoplon) and over time it became used to denote military equipment (just like hoplon). Finally it was used to denote the armour itself (the English "harness"). Hoplon eventually became used to describe weapons rather than armour (no, it doesn't mean "shield").Bertus Brokamp wrote:Well, more the other way around. 'Harnas' (in all its ways of spelling) was generically used for armour, but in some regions it was (sometimes?) more specifically used to denote mail armour.Ernst wrote:Can haernasch be generically used for armor, including mail, or is it's use more restricted to items of plate?
For instance there are two account entries (1395 and 1399) from the duchy of Guelders (nowadays Dutch province of Gelderland) where just mail armour pieces are bought from a harnasmaker. And there is the harnasmakers guild in the north-german city of Lübeck. In 1433 it was stipulated that when an apprentice harnasmaker wanted to become a master himself, he should be able to make a haubergeon and a coif.
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
Thanks Bertus. What was your source?Bertus Brokamp wrote:Two weeks ago I bought a book with transcriptions of the household accounts of the count of Holland in 1358-1361, so this find is quite fresh.
On page 465 (account of 1360-61) it reads:
... ghelevert toten hoenre behoef ende in den stal ende in de haernasch camere thaernasch mede te scuren binnen der tijt voerseide: 13 achtendel zemele
'... delivered for the chickens need and in the stables and in the armour room, to scour the armour with, within the time aforementioned: 13 -X volume- bran'
Apparantly the 'achtendeel' was a volume of some 34 litres in the year 1810.
Its interesting that everyone since Meyrick has leapt on the "sand" part of "sand and bran" whereas the first medieval source we have is for bran!
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
The book:
Boer, D.E.H. de (1997), De Rekeningen van de grafelijkheid van Holland uit de beierse periode, volume 1: De hofrekeningen en de dijkgraafsrekeningen van de Grote Waard, 1358-1361. The Hague: Instituut voor Nederlandse Geschiedenis.
title loosely translated:
'The accounts of the county of Holland from the Bavarian period, volume 1: the court accounts and dike officials accounts of the Grote Waard, 1358-1361'
There was a Bavarian period because the ruler of the county of Holland in this period was Albrecht of house Wittelsbach, duke of Bavaria-Straubing.
Boer, D.E.H. de (1997), De Rekeningen van de grafelijkheid van Holland uit de beierse periode, volume 1: De hofrekeningen en de dijkgraafsrekeningen van de Grote Waard, 1358-1361. The Hague: Instituut voor Nederlandse Geschiedenis.
title loosely translated:
'The accounts of the county of Holland from the Bavarian period, volume 1: the court accounts and dike officials accounts of the Grote Waard, 1358-1361'
There was a Bavarian period because the ruler of the county of Holland in this period was Albrecht of house Wittelsbach, duke of Bavaria-Straubing.
Bertus Brokamp
Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
From Design and Construction (with a gentle reminder that some mail was tinned)
Thomas Powers wrote:In divers Arts, circa 1120 A.D. Theophilus says:
"If you want to coat an iron object with tin, first file it and, before touching it with your hand, while it is freshly filed, throw it into a pot of melted tin with tallow and stir it about vigorously with thongs until it becomes white. Then take it out, shake it vigorously, and clean it with bran and with a linen cloth."
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
Do we have evidence that maille in particular was tinned? I have seen citations for brigandine plates, but not European maille. I'm not sure how well period tinning would have worked once the maille was assembled.
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
IIRC Wallace Collection mail sleeves A10 & A11, long thought to be iron with latten edges, were discovered to be latten mail with tinning.
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.or ... detailView
The entry there lists them as copper-alloy, but a neighbouring pair of latten-decorates gauntlets as steel and copper-alloy, so they seem to accept it. That gives us two medieval sources for bran, and none for sand!
The entry there lists them as copper-alloy, but a neighbouring pair of latten-decorates gauntlets as steel and copper-alloy, so they seem to accept it. That gives us two medieval sources for bran, and none for sand!
DIS MANIBUS GUILLELMI GENTIS MCLEANUM FAMILIARITER GALLERON DICTI
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
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Re: Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?
Maybe I missed it earlier in the thread...
By "bran", what exactly are we talking about? Is it bran in the sense of bran from grain; i.e. wheat bran, oat bran, etc.? Or is this something all together different?
I've heard of using walnut shell as a tumbling medium. Do you think that might be a reasonable approximation of a bran?
Thanks,
Albrecht
By "bran", what exactly are we talking about? Is it bran in the sense of bran from grain; i.e. wheat bran, oat bran, etc.? Or is this something all together different?
I've heard of using walnut shell as a tumbling medium. Do you think that might be a reasonable approximation of a bran?
Thanks,
Albrecht