Mac wrote:Ernst wrote:
Caspar Isenmann, Retable, Betrayal of Christ, 1465, Unterlinden Museum
The big image: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Christ.jpg
The full image: http://www.musee-unterlinden.com/assets ... enmann.JPG
The other thing I want to mention, at the risk of thread déraillement is about that helmet. I think we are supposed to understand it as splinted leather. There is a whole class of armor that we see in paintings that looks like this. It's always brown, and has strips of steel and rivets. Like I said somewhere else recently; I am the last guy to cry "leather armor", but I think that's what it is. Maybe we should start another thread about it and see if we can come to some consensus.
Mac
Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets)
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Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets)
This is a spin off from my thread on standards & Pisans
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
Here is a Russian web page I found yesterday on this very subject it has some nice examples from painting and sculpture.
http://mmkhraniteli.ucoz.com/publ/o_pop ... y/1-1-0-38
http://mmkhraniteli.ucoz.com/publ/o_pop ... y/1-1-0-38
Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
Although there are certainly leather armors with metal splints, I am not convinced this is what is being shown in Isenmann's art. How to explain the bright bands around the arm? I think a fabric or leather cover riveted over steel is a better explanation. (See Amanda/Isabella's recent thread.) How should we explain the vertical lines: Overstitched seams in the cover, chiseled wire overlaid onto the surface, etc.?
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
I'm not convinced it's leather either, but this sort of representation has been gnawing at me for quite a while now. It shows up most frequently on historical, Biblical, and exotic persons. On the other hand, it is not far off of the surviving leather vambraces, or the leather armor depicted in King Rene's tourney book.
I think the bands on the helmet and breast could be intended to represent applied metal strips or tightly spaced rivets. That description fits more or less equally well for armor of leather or covered plate armor.
Mac
I think the bands on the helmet and breast could be intended to represent applied metal strips or tightly spaced rivets. That description fits more or less equally well for armor of leather or covered plate armor.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
I'm thinking the best clues will be gleaned from inventories. Randall? Obviously our German friends could be of great service, too.
Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
Here are some links directly to images on the Russian language site that Tom mentioned. Sadly, the first two are too big to post directly here.
The B/W inset is one of the lost vambraces from the Schelde. http://mmkhraniteli.ucoz.com/_pu/0/05357158.jpg
The vambraces from Tartu (?) http://mmkhraniteli.ucoz.com/_pu/0/50929248.jpg
I've never seen this one before. It looks like it comes from Eastern Europe or the Middle East. In any case, it supports the "exotic" idea.
Mac
The B/W inset is one of the lost vambraces from the Schelde. http://mmkhraniteli.ucoz.com/_pu/0/05357158.jpg
The vambraces from Tartu (?) http://mmkhraniteli.ucoz.com/_pu/0/50929248.jpg
I've never seen this one before. It looks like it comes from Eastern Europe or the Middle East. In any case, it supports the "exotic" idea.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
We discussed leather armor a bit on the AAF back in '11. There are a couple of interesting images in that thread. http://www.armsandarmourforum.com/forum ... page__hl__
Mac
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
Found one very close at the Met!Mac wrote:Here are some links directly to images on the Russian language site that Tom mentioned. Sadly, the first two are too big to post directly here.
The B/W inset is one of the lost vambraces from the Schelde. http://mmkhraniteli.ucoz.com/_pu/0/05357158.jpg
The vambraces from Tartu (?) http://mmkhraniteli.ucoz.com/_pu/0/50929248.jpg
I've never seen this one before. It looks like it comes from Eastern Europe or the Middle East. In any case, it supports the "exotic" idea.
Mac
Forearm Guard
Date: possibly 15th–16th century
Culture: Tibetan
Medium: Leather, iron, pigments
Dimensions: L. 10 in. (25.4 cm); W. 6 1/8 in. (15.6 cm)
Classification: Armor Parts-Arms & Shoulders
Credit Line: Purchase, Kenneth and Vivian Lam Gift, 2001
Accession Number: 2001.36
Click on Image to open the Met's page.
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
I know I have seen this photo before and seem to remember Randall having some info?
Found it!
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=159409&p=2415098&hilit=box#p2415098
Found it!
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=159409&p=2415098&hilit=box#p2415098
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
Yet more images from the AAF thread.
Note that all are of Biblical scenes with Christ in them.
Note that all are of Biblical scenes with Christ in them.
Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
Splendid work, Tom!
Here is a link to the leather arms in King Rene. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... ais%202695
They are are reminescent of the armor on the St George here. https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... 25/sizes/l
Mac
Here is a link to the leather arms in King Rene. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... ais%202695
They are are reminescent of the armor on the St George here. https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... 25/sizes/l
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
Splendid work, Tom!
Here is a link to the leather arms in King Rene. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... ais%202695
They are are reminescent of the armor on the St George here. https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... 25/sizes/l
Mac
Here is a link to the leather arms in King Rene. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... ais%202695
They are are reminescent of the armor on the St George here. https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... 25/sizes/l
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
Thanks Mac!Mac wrote:Splendid work, Tom!
Here is a link to the leather arms in King Rene. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... ais%202695
They are are reminescent of the armor on the St George here. https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... 25/sizes/l
Mac
George's legs match his arms.
King Rene Arms
Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
I'll see what I can do with the relevant portions. It's from the 1420 Louvre inventory.
253. Item, one "viez" harness of leather, covered with blue velvet scattered with fleur-de-lis "netted" with very fine pearls. To wit rebraces, vambraces, greaves and a pair of gauntlets, without equal.
254. Item, one other harness of leather, without bascinet, covered in satin with embroidered arms of Navarre and d'Evereaux, garnished with gilt latten and plates of steel covered with the mentioned arms.
255. Item, another harness of leather, without bascinet and gauntlets, covered with cloth of gold on a blue field, and with mail cuisses.
Interestingly the leather harness is always covered in fabric, so Mac and I might both be correct.
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
Wouldn't be surprised if "viez" were "vieux," and hence "an old harness."
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
Mac wrote:I'm not convinced it's leather either, but this sort of representation has been gnawing at me for quite a while now. It shows up most frequently on historical, Biblical, and exotic persons. On the other hand, it is not far off of the surviving leather vambraces, or the leather armor depicted in King Rene's tourney book.
I think the bands on the helmet and breast could be intended to represent applied metal strips or tightly spaced rivets. That description fits more or less equally well for armor of leather or covered plate armor.
Mac
Maybe it was quoting (or using as a reference) Dobson, but IIRC, one of the better books on tournaments stated that more tourney armor was made of leather than of steel.
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
Does this man have a serious medical condition? Like, having his torso twisted 180 degrees?
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
And it was also not unheard-of for Christ's tormentors of all descriptions to be drawn contorted or deliberately awkward. No sympathy there; not like the sort of thing indirectly shown in Jesus Christ Superstar, that passion play for people who think themselves too sophisticated for passion plays.
Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
He makes better sense when you can see the whole figure. He's still ugly, of course, but that's important for the iconography.Xtracted wrote:
Does this man have a serious medical condition? Like, having his torso twisted 180 degrees?
Oh, and how about that purse he has around his neck? It looks like it would make a nice sort of bag for the reenactor to take to the market. This is the sort of detail that really "makes" a painting.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
Tibet! Well...that's farther East than I thought!Tom B. wrote:
Found one very close at the Met!
Forearm Guard
Date: possibly 15th–16th century
Culture: Tibetan
Medium: Leather, iron, pigments
Dimensions: L. 10 in. (25.4 cm); W. 6 1/8 in. (15.6 cm)
Classification: Armor Parts-Arms & Shoulders
Credit Line: Purchase, Kenneth and Vivian Lam Gift, 2001
Accession Number: 2001.36
Click on Image to open the Met's page.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
I have had my eye on that bag for a good while now.Mac wrote: Oh, and how about that purse he has around his neck? It looks like it would make a nice sort of bag for the reenactor to take to the market. This is the sort of detail that really "makes" a painting.
Mac
Nice and simple.
I like how the cord it hangs from is threaded through both sides and keeps it closed.
Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
Here's another Roman soldier with this sort of armor. Note also, the guy with the "bee skep helmet". They're a rag tag lot, these guys.
Mac
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
And the fellow holding Christ by the hair has one of those compound plate and mail gorgets.
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
I need to add that one to my formula from the other thread:Mac wrote:Here's another Roman soldier with this sort of armor. Note also, the guy with the "bee skep helmet". They're a rag tag lot, these guys.
Mac
Is this possibly one of those formulaic theme ideas we have discussed before?
Panting with Christ and cross = 1 guy with leather armour + 1 mail bevor + maybe a bar grill visor + bee skep helmet...
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
Nicely caught!Ernst wrote:And the fellow holding Christ by the hair has one of those compound plate and mail gorgets.
Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
The greaves are interesting, with an apparent riveted band at top and bottom (for stiffening?), although I confess it was the "tail" which caught my eye! I suspect it makes for a primitive "brayette" when drawn between the legs, as well as making the tormentor look like a monkey.Mac wrote:He makes better sense when you can see the whole figure. He's still ugly, of course, but that's important for the iconography.
Oh, and how about that purse he has around his neck? It looks like it would make a nice sort of bag for the reenactor to take to the market. This is the sort of detail that really "makes" a painting.
Mac
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
Oh! Excellent catch! I missed the "tail".
I am sure you are exactly right, and that there would be a buckle for it in the front.
Mac
I am sure you are exactly right, and that there would be a buckle for it in the front.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
I like the buckler with the face on it, on the right hand side of the painting.
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
Think the lace-work on those "King Rene arms" is decorative, or structural?
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
Using the King Rene armor as a primary example, since I believe there is explicit mention in the work on providing leather armor for competitors, I would like to point out an interesting point on form that, at least in my opinion, makes for several of these armors also being leather very likely. Note the bulbous shape of the pauldrons on the King Rene armor, and compare it to the images below, which have all been shared here already. In addition to the clear use of reinforcing splints of some sort on them all, the bulbous joints are also apparent.
Really interesting stuff. Thanks for digging it all up, guys.
-Gerhard
This depiction clearly shows a globose pauldron covered in fabric, so it's hard to say what it's constructed from underneath... The rest of his jointed armor is almost typical in shape but retains heavy use of splints.
This one is shaky because he's apparently wearing a brigandine, which we know would likely be fabric or leather over metal, but the shape of the pauldron and some sort of metal strips remain as evidence of my theme.
I find this example fascinating because the wearer seems to have an entire harness of the stuff, and it's composite in its underlying construction to boot! Look at the riveted segments that make up the individual pauldrons, couters and poleyns.
Finally, the St. George example is hard to gauge. The shape of the pauldrons is clearly globose in the extreme, but it doesn't strike me that the rest of his armor is not metallic or simply covered. This is given the nature of the subject (a warrior saint worthy of fine armor) and the execution of much of the rest of the sculpture, sans the use of the same reinforcing bits along the various plates. What to think, what to think?
Really interesting stuff. Thanks for digging it all up, guys.
-Gerhard
This depiction clearly shows a globose pauldron covered in fabric, so it's hard to say what it's constructed from underneath... The rest of his jointed armor is almost typical in shape but retains heavy use of splints.
This one is shaky because he's apparently wearing a brigandine, which we know would likely be fabric or leather over metal, but the shape of the pauldron and some sort of metal strips remain as evidence of my theme.
I find this example fascinating because the wearer seems to have an entire harness of the stuff, and it's composite in its underlying construction to boot! Look at the riveted segments that make up the individual pauldrons, couters and poleyns.
Finally, the St. George example is hard to gauge. The shape of the pauldrons is clearly globose in the extreme, but it doesn't strike me that the rest of his armor is not metallic or simply covered. This is given the nature of the subject (a warrior saint worthy of fine armor) and the execution of much of the rest of the sculpture, sans the use of the same reinforcing bits along the various plates. What to think, what to think?
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
Marvelcomicsitis. Its a horrible condition normally associated with female super heroes...Xtracted wrote:Does this man have a serious medical condition? Like, having his torso twisted 180 degrees?
And amost all of them depict the carrying of a single-edged sword.Tom B. wrote:Mac wrote:I need to add that one to my formula from the other thread:
Is this possibly one of those formulaic theme ideas we have discussed before?
Panting with Christ and cross = 1 guy with leather armour + 1 mail bevor + maybe a bar grill visor + bee skep helmet...
Falchion, or later on messers, almost universally.
That's something I've repeatedly spotted in my research work - the single-edged sword is displayed in opposition to the "two-edged sword" of God (Psalm 149:6 "Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand", for example, and also the writings of Clement of Alexandria, etc.)
- The image of the two-edged sword as that of the righteous is contrasted with the use of the single-edged arms by the ungodly - depictions of Goliath, the roman soldiers, the saracens in depictions of the crusades made 200 years after the events.
I suspect its part of the reason for the complete extinction of single-edged arms in the 10-11th centuries, when the long seaxes die out. There's a clear depiction of falchion, and later messers in the hands of those displaying un-christian virtues. (they also appear in the hands of angels, where they demonstrate wrath, and the likes. I suspect that there are blade markings on single-edged arms, in the form of triple-marked details, often up at the cusped clip, when they're used by the righteous, in a form of talismanic blessing to neutralise their negative connotations. Frustratingly, the only such object I know to have survived is not a falchion, but a malchus in the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, which has 3 crescent-shaped stampings. (crescent associated with Mary, and three with the Trinity being an obvious question that comes to mind... and therefore is almost certainly the wrong answer...)
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Re: Leather armour in art? (brown with metal strips & rivets
Okay, I'm going to go out on a limb here. This is all relatively late, and while we think of them as tourney armor, these clearly aren't tourney contexts (or individuals who would ever be permitted to compete in same). So being counter-intuitive, what's the chance that this stuff was actually more protective, in terms of being predictable in its material consistency, than munitions gear all-in-iron at the same point in time?
Makes me wonder if I need to half-tan some more leather.
Makes me wonder if I need to half-tan some more leather.
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