Poleyns question

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Tristan vom Schwarzwald
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Poleyns question

Post by Tristan vom Schwarzwald »

Let me give this a better title...


I am slowly changing my armour to achieve a more uniform appearance. I am Germanic, 1325 to 1350ish. I am thinking of going with splinted arms and legs. One thing, however, that I have been flirting with are the flared Poleyns. I know they are seen from about 1275 to 1325. I know there is a strap for behind the knee. I know they were usually worn with padded quisses(sp?), being somehow sewn to them.

My questions are: HOW are they sewn to the quisses and yet allow one good knee movement and the ability to kneel? Are these Poleyns appropriate to splinted legs as well? I extend these questions to the matching elbows as well...

Oh, and Jehan? I'm considering stainless or spring metal in these...
"I was going to post '+1', but Tasha K is watching like the Eye of Sauron."
Maeryk
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Post by Maeryk »

you could stitch or lace them to the cuisse, even with leather cord to remove them.

one suggestion.. I made leather legs (cuisse and greaves) and connected all three together. Unless theres some basic law of armoring I missed, it just doesnt work all that well for the fighting we do. The greave always seemed to cause the knee to pop forward off the actual leg, and leave the back of my leg hanging in midair.

I would make the splint greaves separate, and held up on their own.

Maeryk
Steve S.
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Post by Steve S. »

I suspect that there may be a strip of leather riveted to the back of the flares, and this leather strip serves as a stitch or lacing point for stitching/lacing to the cuisses.

Steve
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Raymund
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Post by Raymund »

Yes, thats my theory too, its probably the same piece of leather as the fringes you often see below the polyen.
I'll use the method when I build my new and improved leg harness.

/R
Simon FitzHugh
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Post by Simon FitzHugh »

I have the same question. I have seen what appear to be rivet heads on the top and bottom of poleyns from early and mid 14th century English brasses that may support leather articulation or points. Around mid century, brasses sometimes show a more fitted poleyn without flares but mounted on a backing of material different from the cuisses or schynbalds. This backing might be leather or fabric wrapped around the kneee to better support the poleyn. I do not know, however, whether this system will work.
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Johannes
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Post by Johannes »

The fringes below the knee are the bottom edge of the padded chausse, it covers the entire knee and then shows below the poleyn.

There is an extant 13th century poleyn of the "soupcan" shape that still has a row of rings just below the flare where it was attached to a mail chausse. For simplicity sake, the easiest way for combat use is to attach a piece of leather inside the poleyn, just below the flare and just inside the start of the curve, and punch a couple holes in it to accept laces from the chausse. That way it can be removed easily and putting it inside the curve doesn't stress the fabric as much.
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Erik Schmidt
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Post by Erik Schmidt »

Firstly, let me say that kneeling was probably not a high priority for armour functionality in the middle ages. I don't know of any evidence that suggests well armoured persons needed the ability to kneel in their armour on anything but rare occations. So, unless you are designing with modern combat rules in mind, I would suggest that a 90 degree leg bend without kneeling is all that is required.

The construction of 14th century knee armour prior to the use of articulating lames does not seem to be well understood or have been researched in any detail. I have been wanting to make up a series of leg armours to test my theories of construction based on period artworks. To date this is still just a plan, so I can't offer any tested advice on construction.

Tristan, you mention the flared poleyns. I have noted several armourers making poleyns of a mid 14th century style with heavily flared edges. To date I have not come across a single source that would clearly show such poleyns were in use. I personally see the edges above and below the poleyn as being extentions of a backing or suspention in most cases, either leather or cloth, and not part of the poleyn itself. In some cases this is very obvious. An English effigy located in Tewkesbury Abbey, from the 3rd quater of the 14th century, is a good example. From the front he looks to have rounded poleyns with a flared edge top and bottom, but from the side it can clearly be seen that the top and bottom edges as well as the fan on the side are part of a single backing piece onto which the poleyn is somehow attached.
Interpretation of knee armour construction is very difficult due to the lack of differentiation between materials shown, and the task becomes almost impossible where only two dimentions are seen, such as brasses or photos and drawings of effigies. Add to this the fact that rivets were often hidden, their heads being filed flat on outer surfaces. An example of this can be found in the Wisby book, which shows a domed 14cm x 11cm metal plate with a central ridge and scolloped edges. It is thought to be a poleyn and is fitted with 4 rivets which cannot be seen from the outside. The shanks and heads protrude from the back of the poleyn and once held a leather backing or articulation, remains of which are still present.

Despite all the probelms, some information can be gained from period sources.
German armour is also my interest. I had a quick look at pictures of 12 effigies and some sculptures within the 1325-1350 time range.
I don't have many side views of the various effigies, but where I can see the side of the leg a strap is usually shown going around the back of the knee.
Generally speaking;
-cuisses often obscured, but when seen they are either gamboised or splinted.
-rivets along the top of the knee armour are usual, but not common along the bottom edge.
-poleyns with multiple ridges are most common, generally having 5 ridges, sometimes 3. Poleyns with a central ridge or no obvious ridge are less common.
-mail on the lower leg is usual, although some splint or solid greaves do occur. The solid greaves, usually half greaves, could be leather or metal.
-generally the lower edge appears to be of a seperate material to the poleyn, very likely leather due to its continuity with the scolloped edge.
-The lower edge is almost always scolloped, mostly with leaf shapes and this seems to be normal among knights of the time. In some cases this lower edge may be the bottom of the cuisse and indicates that the poleyn may simple be attached to the this material and strapped around the back of the knee to hold it in place on the knee.

It seems to me that poleyns are generally attached(riveted) at their top to the cuisse and strapped around the back of the knee. In many cases an extra backing material is likely attached to the poleyn and this is what is attached to the cuisse. Sometimes the backing material goes around the knee like a sock similar to, or an extention of, the gamboised cuisses.

Well, I hope that will give you something to work with.

Erik
Tristan vom Schwarzwald
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Post by Tristan vom Schwarzwald »

Erik Schmidt wrote:German armour is also my interest. I had a quick look at pictures of 12 effigies and some sculptures within the 1325-1350 time range.
I don't have many side views of the various effigies, but where I can see the side of the leg a strap is usually shown going around the back of the knee.
Generally speaking;
-cuisses often obscured, but when seen they are either gamboised or splinted.
-rivets along the top of the knee armour are usual, but not common along the bottom edge.
-poleyns with multiple ridges are most common, generally having 5 ridges, sometimes 3. Poleyns with a central ridge or no obvious ridge are less common.
-mail on the lower leg is usual, although some splint or solid greaves do occur. The solid greaves, usually half greaves, could be leather or metal.
-generally the lower edge appears to be of a seperate material to the poleyn, very likely leather due to its continuity with the scolloped edge.
-The lower edge is almost always scolloped, mostly with leaf shapes and this seems to be normal among knights of the time. In some cases this lower edge may be the bottom of the cuisse and indicates that the poleyn may simple be attached to the this material and strapped around the back of the knee to hold it in place on the knee.

It seems to me that poleyns are generally attached(riveted) at their top to the cuisse and strapped around the back of the knee. In many cases an extra backing material is likely attached to the poleyn and this is what is attached to the cuisse. Sometimes the backing material goes around the knee like a sock similar to, or an extention of, the gamboised cuisses.

Well, I hope that will give you something to work with.

Erik


Erik, thank you for your in depth answer. I suspect I shall be picking your brain given your interest in German armour.

Before I go private with this conversation, do you see more splinted arms and legs with articulated elbows and knees than the single piece Poleyn type armour for 1312-1350?

Thanks again!
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Jehan de Pelham
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Post by Jehan de Pelham »

Tristan,

These rock: http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart ... p=268&c=20

I don't know about attaching them to a gamboised cuisse, however...

I am almost sure that by the later time of your portrayal, gamboised cuisses would have been abandoned for cuir boulli and splinted, or even plate steel leg defenses. The Germans, however, stuck with cuir boulli longer, it seems--so perhaps splinted limbs with the flanged poleyns would be a really good fit for you. Besides, they are more protective, to my estimation.

Sir John d'Aubernoun's effigy (1327) has a mail skirt which hides the cuisse, but the greave appears to be front-only steel, with sollerets. Teeny shield, too, but impossible to know if it is artistic liscence or an accurate shield size.

Sir Oliver Ingham (1347) has flanged poleyns, and though his mail skirt hides almost all the cuisses, you can see one row of what appear to be studs.

Sir Miles Stapleton (d 1364) has single poleyns, not flanged, but studded cuisses and splinted greaves with sabaton--perhaps some kind of approximation of the arms of his prime years? By this time, plate defenses were quite in style.

I hope that these few--English, mind you--effigies help you in your progress.

If you have Osprey Men at Arms #166: German Medieval Armies 1300-1500, it has several excellent portrayals suitable for your time-frame. Plate D, #1 (the leftmost man at arms on the cover), is very nice. Plates B2 or C1 are also very nice.

When Erik gets rolling on wanting to understand something, he seems to nail it.

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Erik Schmidt
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Post by Erik Schmidt »

Oops, just realised I missed something out.

Where I wrote "-cuisses often obscured, but when seen they are either gamboised or splinted." you can add smooth cuisses to that as being common. These would either indicate plate, leather or splint that has not had the rivets and other features sculpted, such as the splint armour being painted on, seen in the effigy of Günther von Schwarzburg.

Tristan vom Schwarzwald wrote:Before I go private with this conversation, do you see more splinted arms and legs with articulated elbows and knees than the single piece Poleyn type armour for 1312-1350?

Thanks again!


Please keep the discusion here for the most part. It lets others benefit from it and allows people to question my assumptions, as well as adding even more info.

If I understand your question correctly, you seem to use the term 'poleyn' for the elbow pretection. This actually referred to as the 'couter'.

Firstly, I don't know what you mean by "articulated elbows", although I presume from your question that you refer to couters which are articulated on rivets or leathers and have lames above and below to join them to the upper and lower arm armour. If that is the case, you will be dissappinted to know that such articulation does not come into use in Germanic areas for quite some time. You may be surprised to learn that couters are quite rare on effigies prior to 1350. It's possible that they could have been worn under it. I haven't checked other artworks extensively as yet.
Full splinted arms are also not common and tend to be seen more where there is a Western influence in the art such as Flanders or Alsace. Gilles de Hamal and Gottfried v Bergheim, respectively, are good examples of such armour.
Generally speaking the Germanic arm armour of the period 1325-1350 is predominantly mail, the sleeves being from just past elbow length to full length, 3/4 sleeves seemingly most common. The less than full length sleeves seem always to be supplemented by a forearm defence either of splint or smooth(plate/leather). The strapping along the inner arm is often depicted very clearly.
On rare occations the mail is supplemented by upper arm splint defences also and equally rarely, by a couter or discs(basegews) pointed at the elbows. Hidden couters are a possibility as I stated above, but one which I think is unlikely in most cases due to several reasons I won't go into now.
Spaulders seem to be common, although they are small and usually hidden under a flap or short sleeve of leather from the CoP or jupon. Their form varies from that of a dished disc or half-circle to that of a series of scales.

Erik
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Post by Erik Schmidt »

Jehan de Pelham wrote:The Germans, however, stuck with cuir boulli longer, it seems--so perhaps splinted limbs with the flanged poleyns would be a really good fit for you.


I don't see that from the evidence available. The Germanic areas relied heavily on mail but not so much on leather armour, nothing like the extent to which it was utilised in Italy anyway. It took longer for metal plate to be adopted in the Germanic areas than it did in England, for example, but cuir boulli was not adopted in it's stead. It wasn't that they stuck with cuir boulli instead of switching to plate, they simply didn't rely heavily on it in the first place.
As has been mentioned before, plate seems to have been adopted on a basis of need, thought to have been driven to a great extent by the increasing use of infantry who killed, rather than resnsomed. Seemingly, the need in the Germanic areas just arose later.

Jehan de Pelham wrote:Sir John d'Aubernoun's effigy (1327) has a mail skirt which hides the cuisse, but the greave appears to be front-only steel, with sollerets.


He does indeed have half greaves. The position of the legs on the effigies obscures the outside of the leg, but artwork reveals a lot. I was commissioned to make a set of English greaves of about the 1330-1335 period and did extensive research to figure out the shape. I found it was usual for the outside edge of the greave to go further back than the inside edge, which makes perfect sense. So even in a direct front on view, one would be likely to see the edge of the greave only on the inside of the leg.

Jehan de Pelham wrote:Sir Oliver Ingham (1347) has flanged poleyns.......


The low resolution drawings I have don't seem to show any flanges.
In that regard, do you know of any period English artworks from around 1300, including effigies, that show flanged(flared) poleyns like the type you linked to?
My material and knowledge on the English is not so great. I know of a few effigies which show flanged poleyns, but they seem to be of cuir boulli and not metal plate.

Jehan de Pelham wrote:When Erik gets rolling on wanting to understand something, he seems to nail it.


Thanks Jehan. Yeah, I'm a pedantic bastard.

Erik
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