Help sorting out a chamfrom for a newby please!

ringleheim · Post by **ringleheim** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:17 pm

I was at the current armor exhibit at the National Gallery of Art in DC yesterday.

I was staring at this chamfrom for nearly 1/2 hour, totally blown away. I was trying to figure out how it was made and exactly what I was looking at.

Would anyone care to dissect this for me? What is the black part? Blackened steel? What is all the fine, ornate gold "painting" on it? How about the thick rope like edges to the nose protector? Is that a separate piece, and if so, did they weld back then?

Brass seems to be incorporated in this piece based on the description, but how?

Also notice the very ornate rivets with the grooves in them...how does one make those?

I gather that the entire piece is made from 4 main components: the 2 ear protectors, the forehead, and the nose, all riveted together. The shield/crest is riveted on as decoration. Are there other features added on? Or is the remaining detail all part of the steel pieces already mentioned?

I would love to try and make something like this myself..just wish I had a trained armorer standing next to me yesterday to explain what's what.

Thank you!

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:19 pm

Also notice the very ornate rivets with the grooves in them...how does one make those?

Teeny tiny files.

How did I miss that piece last time I was at the gallery?

es02 · Post by **es02** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:23 pm

A bigger picture would have been better

To get patterned rivets they are usually either stamped with a die or filed to shape.

Brass bits that seem to be part of the steel probably are - they are quite likely gilded.

the black is *probably* a heat blue, I am unaware of any medieval chemical finishes.

Did they know how to weld? Well not with a mig no

Forge welding is a very old technique and had been in use for a very long time when this was made.

Roped edges are usually done with a chisel onto a curved edge.

looks like there has been some engraving and/or repousee in the edge decorations amongst others

ringleheim · Post by **ringleheim** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:37 pm

Thanks to all for your help.

I have a larger photo, but the forum won't allow a larger photo. Is there a way to post a larger photo?

This is a link to a bigger version of the same photo

http://www.flickr.com/photos/societyofs ... 314738315/

Pitbull Armory · Post by **Pitbull Armory** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:57 am

Hi there, Yes gilding and chisels and files is your answer. How to use them all is the magic part that im still trying to figure out. What a nice piece there. Thank you for the pic.

Take care

Pitbull

es02 · Post by **es02** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:01 am

there are qalso a buch of castings that would have tails on the underside that would match holes punched in the chamfron which would have been clipped off and peened over like a rivet.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:37 am

es02 wrote:there are qalso a buch of castings that would have tails on the underside that would match holes punched in the chamfron which would have been clipped off and peened over like a rivet.

On this chamfron? What i see i interpret as repousse work.

Jon Terris · Post by **Jon Terris** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:45 am

While the figures most definately look like repouse, the crown, plume holder and also the shield look like added pieces to me.

Wether the crown was cast or punched and filed into shape I wouldn't like to guess.

JonT

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:48 am

I figured the crown, plume holder and shield were added but thought the comment was in reference to the other decoration. No matter.

es02 · Post by **es02** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:34 am

with the larger pic the figures looked added to me rather than repousee

Pitbull Armory · Post by **Pitbull Armory** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:57 am

Yes the pieces are added, and riveted on with decorative rivits as far as I can see.

Super nice work

Thank you

PB

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:12 am

The crown looks pretty clearly to be a layer on top of the base, not the base being raised up. It's clearly riveted on. The shield with the arms appears to also be a separate piece riveted on.

But, all around the borders you see repoussed vines and flowers, little naked human figures and grotesque faces, all of which are clearly raised up from the base layer of steel, not separate pieces added on.

It's a beautiful piece of work displaying several different skill sets very nicely.

Any provenance ? As in time and place where it is from... I have a guess, but I'm curious to see how close I am

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:27 am

"Any provenance ? As in time and place where it is from... I have a guess, but I'm curious to see how close I am"

Ugo, California, 2008

ringleheim · Post by **ringleheim** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:55 am

Thanks to everyone for contributing their comments. I have heard some new terms here for the first time. Now I have to go figure out what they mean. Hey, it's a start.

Regarding the provenance of this piece:

Desiderius Helmschmid, German, documented 1513-1579, armorer; JÃ¶rg Sigman, goldsmith, German, 1527-1601.Parade Chanfron of Philip II, Augsburg, c. 1549-1552.gilt and damascened steel; gold, brass, and leather. Overall: 54.8 x 24 cm (21 9/16 x 9 7/16 in.).Patrimonio Nacional, Real ArmerÃa, Madrid.

There is another chamfron at the current exhibit at National Gallery of Art that made everyone stop in their tracks as well! Covered in "dragon skin" and looking like something from a fantasy film.

I'll attach a pic of that one, but it really doesn't do it justice. You have to see the piece in front of you to really take it all in.

The "dragon scales" on the skin are quite raised, there's a lot of depth and texture to it that comes out flatter in the photo.

Here's the link to a larger photo

http://www.flickr.com/photos/societyofs ... 314738315/

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:51 pm

Wow, those are both nice chanfrons. They could very well be the pinnacle of the art for their time. I don't know if any of us could achieve that any more. It requires an apprentice system, skills developed from early child-hood and expanding on the skill-sets of your teachers, your grand-teachers and even great-grand-teachers... It's a good thing we have modern technology to speed up the learning process though.

The shape of the chanfron isn't dis-similar to a greave except that it is symetrical. I know from my previous failed greave projects that this can be a devilishly tricky shape to achieve. To make it worse, any asymmetry will probably be more noticeable while small variations in a pair of greaves might be over-looked.

To achieve that total piece first you would have to master shaping the general chanfron, then master roped edges, then master repose work and then master etching and gilding. That's mastering multiple guild secrets without having teachers. Challenging.

If I were going to start with getting the basic shape right (set smaller achievable goals). I would start by finding a friend with a tolerant horse. I would take photos of the horses head from many angles but be certain to get very good ones of the side, top and nose on. I would print and photocopy the pictures up to 1:1 scale and carefully draw what I think the shape of the steel piece should be. Next I would cut a top and side view of the chanfron from foam-core and a bunch of guesses at what the cross section should look like at various points down the nose. I would glue and tape all of it together like one of those wooden dinosaur puzzles. (This works well for other helm types too) This gives a life-size framework that you can check your work-piece up against so you don't have to have the horse in your shop constantly. It also gives you a shape to try patterning over and finally it gives the volume enclosed by the chanfron which isn't exactly the same thing as the horses head. (you could also start with a horse skull if you know where to get one. I could probably get one through our vet bio-materials department, but I'm not certain I would want to!)

...anyway... I would get the shape right before going on to teaching myself how to do roped edges... then I'd probably cheat and add cast figures to the top rather then repose work and hire a professional painter to finish it. Either way it's a great end goal but nothing I would try for a first chanfron.

And the second image with the dragon scales?... That's like playing Carnegie hall. Even if I was a good musician and practiced my heart out every day I don't know that I could reach that skill level.

And once done? I dunno, give it away I guess. There aren't many people into both horses and armor who could afford armor like that. Horses are expensive pets to keep. (otherwise I'd be taking riding lessons right now)

That's just my rambling thoughts... It's nice to have some time to come back and read the archive again. Happy hammering.

Sean

Help sorting out a chamfrom for a newby please!

Help sorting out a chamfrom for a newby please!

Howdy

Howdy