Armor liability

Ramirez · Post by **Ramirez** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:01 am

This is a question for all you who sell armor, especially helmets. When selling a piece for any kind of reenactment combat is there some kind of disclaimer or waiver that's involved to prevent the maker from being sued in case of injury (due to armor flaws)? With lawsuits the way they are today I am wondering what you guys do in this respect.

Signo · Post by **Signo** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 6:52 am

You simply sell "reproduction" and non safety gear, you can't be responsible of misuse or abuse of the item you sell, for the same reason that if i produce a rifle, i'm not a fellowman of someone who use the rifle to kill people.
Unless uni-iso are needed for medieval armour, we have no problem

white mountain armoury · Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:37 am

Thats realy not true Signo, ive spent quite a few hours with a lawyer discussing this very thing, if it was for living history reinactment you might get away with it, but not in the sca, the fact that sca armour is built to a certain safty spec means you cant claim that and it wont hold up in court.
There are however diff ways to protect your assets, thats why im an LLC.
I also copied several diff disclaimers from armourers website and brought them to my attourney, he claimed that while they may deter the casual lawsuit they would not hold u at all incourt.

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:44 am

I also have spent some time talking with a lawyer, and he felt that the only to protect yourself from suits of this sort would be to incorporate into an LLC.
Brian/Aylwin

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:28 am

One of the things you will have to realize is that the form of your business can protect your assets like your home or car etc. but if somebody sues you, you will need to spend money to defend in court. This can ruin a shoestring business just as fast/badly as losing a liability suit. Insurance is a good thing to have to (hopefully) defray your own lawyer and court costs.

Who carries business insurance and does anyone have any recommendations about it?

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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain
Failure is the price of knowledge
Changing the face of warfare one weapon at a time

[This message has been edited by Captain Jamie (edited 11-25-2003).]

Thorvold · Post by **Thorvold** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:38 am

Sorry, for us newbs, what is an LLC?

James C · Post by **James C** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:45 am

LLC = Limited Liablity Company

white mountain armoury · Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:52 am

I did, but they later changed their mind, the best bet is to hire an attourney and write up a trust to protect your actual material goods like tools etc etc, and become an llc to protect you personal assets.
As soon as you mention combat of any type your insurrer will bail

Thorvold · Post by **Thorvold** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 12:01 pm

Thanks, James

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 12:15 pm

What WMA said.

I have the following disclaimer on our web site and all order paperwork:

<b>Important Note!
While we consider our maille highly authentic, our maille armour is intended for costume use only! It is not intended to offer protection against anything. Because we cannot control how you use our products, Forth Armoury is not responsible for any injuries sustained while wearing our garments. </b>

I also created an LLC so as to separate my personal assets (home, cars, money, etc.) from that of the business, which has very little in the way of assets. This makes Forth Armoury LLC a very unattractive target for a lawsuit. Being an LLC does not completely shield the company officers from legal action (for example, if it can be proven that they were negligent) but it is probably the best way to separate your personal assets from the business.

Steve

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Forth Armoury
Highly authentic, affordable riveted maille.

Kronos Weretiger · Post by **Kronos Weretiger** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:35 pm

So far this has been some good info.I have one question though.WHat exactly do you mean when you refer to your Company as an LLC.I am not familar with that term.
Kronos

white mountain armoury · Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:17 pm

Its almost described in the title, Limited Liability Company, its a way to protect certain assets. Your liabilty is limited to certain things.
For example a small cottage buisness like me or Steve only needs a certain amount of things to function, I have a welder, some hammers, some steel, typical armouring tools, while they certainly seem expencive they are realtivly small potatoes when it comes to the cost of sueing someone. Sure my buisness may have several thousand dollars of assets, but it will cost more than that to sue, My home and property on the other hand are worth a great deal more, but these are protected assets, my liabilty is limited to my buisness. This is over simplifying things but its a decent general description.

Zweihammer · Post by **Zweihammer** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:52 pm

Is forming an LLC something one can do on one's own or should one retain legal counsel? Is it a matter of filling out the proper forms or does one have to define their assests with an appraisal to have them covered.
Cheers, Erick Davidson

white mountain armoury · Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:09 pm

Id suggest going through an attourney, They will prettymuch have a standard fee for the paperwork and are more prepared to deal with it. I spoke with my wifes uncle who is a patent lawyer and he suggested going through an attourney as it would make better use of my time,there are quite a few forms that are non user friendly and language not easlily understood

the likelyhood fo filing and filling out forms likely and prolonging the hassle.
For me it was a far better option to keep armouring and earning money to pay someone than take the loss of income earning time to try and save the legal fees.
In other words my time was much better spent doing what i know and hiring someone to do what they know

Bart · Post by **Bart** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 6:23 pm

I'd like to add my agreement to the idea of formaing a Limited Liability Company, and in going to a lawyer to do it. I am just completing the process for myself, and it's turning out to be a positive thing, at the very least for my peace of mind.

It cost me a little over $500 to get this done, and the law offices I worked with were very responsive. I got to sit down and talk with an actual, real, live lawyer. I showed him some of my crossbow equipment, which he found very interesting, and he gave me lots of useful ideas toward putting my LLC into place (how to use bank accounts, making contributions into, getting money out of, paying for company-related equipment, etc.).

One of the things he recommended is that I 'brand' each of my units with a maker's mark so that it is clear that the company is providing the goods, and not me personally.

I'm looking for a way to make an actual brand that I can heat up and sear into the wood -- perhaps an "H" capped with the top of a tower. I'm thinking of using my dremel to carve one into the top of a 1/2" bolt. Anybody got any better ideas?

-bart

white mountain armoury · Mon Dec 08, 2003 6:32 pm

contact centaur forge or a similar company and have a stamp made, it will save you some effort.

Stonekeep · Post by **Stonekeep** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:57 pm

Its also a good idea if you can, to lease your equipment from a seperate LLC that you own. I do this so my armory has basically no assets of any kind except some steel, rivets, and some leather. Dont forget you have to pay yourself a wage by company check that you then deposit in your own personal account which is not associated with the business.

Its a little more record keeping as I have to actually write checks from one company to another for the use of the tools and equipment, but the reward will be the look on the face of the anus that tries to sue the armory.

I figure all tolled up someone might could attain $500 in steel, rivets, and leather, and the few hundred dollars I actually leave in the business account. Taking me to court is going to cost a lot more than that. Worst case scenario: the armory files chapter 13 on its $500 worth of assets.

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Michael Spiers
Cyrack of Stonekeep
Stonekeep Armory
www.stonekeeparmory.com