swimming pool acid

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:04 pm

I saved this bit of info below from a post by Halberds some time ago and I will probably want to use it about now on a helm thats taken me a bit of time to work on. It only has light rust but its a bit awkward to sand and I figured that swimming pool acid idea might work great BUT I need to hear back about this cause I really dont want to %&$# up my helmet (it just takes me sooo damn long to get any armour work done).

If you have done this please let me know what to watch out for, if I will damage my 16 ga cold rolled mild steel armour one way or another by leaving it in too long or whatever. I'm just being overly cautious because I am almost finished and dont want to screw this up.

Here is the message:

***********************
Mild steel will rust during construction if it takes you a long time like me.
I just keep working with rusty until I am ready to do the final finish.
For stuff that is very rusty I will put it in my 5 gal. bucket with 1 gal. swimming pool acid to 4 gal. water. This will eat the rust right off in less than a hour.
After finishing oil the metal with 3 in 1 oil it works for me.
Car paste wax works for me too.
Natural human acid in some peopleâ€™s hands reacts to metal differently.
Donâ€™t ever let a speed freak handle your armour; the fingerprints will literally; burn into the polished finish.

Hope that is of some help.

Hal
***************************

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:08 pm

It will clean up the rust, and it will "etch" the other portions of the metal. I don't know what look you're looking to get, but take a scrap piece and test it first.

One thing I'm surprised that isn't mentioned, is neutralizing the acid. Rinse heavily with warm water and baking soda.

Jamie

------------------
Jamie
jamie@polarbearforge.com
Polar Bear Forge - Custom knives

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:23 pm

I think I will test a scrap pieces with some vinegar overnight. Do I neutralize with baking soda and warm water with this also? If so how exactly do I do this neutralization process.

Thanks.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by polarbearforge:
It will clean up the rust, and it will "etch" the other portions of the metal. I don't know what look you're looking to get, but take a scrap piece and test it first.

One thing I'm surprised that isn't mentioned, is neutralizing the acid. Rinse heavily with warm water and baking soda.

Jamie

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:24 am

Oh my gosh, a quote from me.....

If the helm is already riveted together the rust will concentrate at the seams.
That is because it is still wet under the rivets and plates.

If this is the case; one must dry it well with the small propane torch. This will boil out the moisture and dry the metal... Warning.. It will still rust during this process.

I believe that the acid bath should be only used for pieces that are not yet assembled.

As far as neutralizing; the rinse water does that. Use the garden hose for best results.
Now don't jump my ass with the EPA. The PH is not that high.

Remember the acid bath is only one step in the metal finishing process. You must sand and polish the finished product before final assembly.

Hal

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:31 am

EPA? I wasnt really going to bother with sanding and polishing too much, as long as it looked like metal I was fine with that. Hope that doesnt break any armourers code of conduct or something

but I'm sure someone will tell me why I should be polishing to a mirror finish (any reasons other than to help prevent rust?).

SO after the acid or vinger or whatever I use I just need to wash it in water and then dry it then sand polish whatever? Sorry if I'm not picking this up clearly.

Cheers.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Halberds:
As far as neutralizing; the rinse water does that. Use the garden hose for best results.
Now don't jump my ass with the EPA. The PH is not that high.

Remember the acid bath is only one step in the metal finishing process. You must sand and polish the finished product before final assembly.

Hal<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:43 am

Yes; wipe it off with paper towels or rags. It will be a metal gray color.
Put some oil on it or it will rust before your very eyes.

Hal

------------------
Happy metal pounding

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:46 am

What about turtle wax instead of oil?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Halberds:
Yes; wipe it off with paper towels or rags. It will be a metal gray color.
Put some oil on it or it will rust before your very eyes.

Hal

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:49 am

It'll work, but oil gives you a more uniform layer of protection in my experience. You can always test it out on a couple of pieces of scrap if you like...

-Donasian.

Agincourt · Post by **Agincourt** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:52 am

I just completed a long string of experiments with HCl acid. Some thoughts.

I was working with about a 1 part acid to 3 part water solution. The acid I had was I think about 30 to 40% concentration.

Mill scale came off in about 10 minutes of soaking.

Rust disolved, and was easily removed with 600 grit sandpaper after about 10 min,

10 min was also enough to etch the metal. Etched metal pretty much looks like a dull gray matte finish, without any scratches almost like it was sandblasted. Neat trick. Draw on the metal with a sharpie marker. The places covered by your sharpie, which works as a resist, will retain their original finish.

Water is fine to dilute, but I feel a little better about myself neutralizing with baking soda before diluting and dumping the stuff. It is just salts and water at that point. The baking soda is a comforting precaution in case you spill or splash the stuff. Take a drop of your acid and drip it on your concrete and see what kind of 'toy' you are dealing with.

Lastly, picture your metal like a girl on the rebound after the acid has had its way with her, she will react chemically with anything that comes her way. Make sure she imediately meets up with a nice boy, like oil. Halbreds is right, after acid metal will literally discolor and rust before your very eyes.

Angus Bjornssen · Post by **Angus Bjornssen** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:25 pm

okay, a while back several folks said that WD-40 is not a good preservative because it is designed to get water out of the way rather than coat and protect. if that is the case would it be useful in getting the last of the rinse water off a piece and start short term preservation of the metal until a proper oil could be used?

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Angus of the White Mountain Shire

HugoFuchs · Post by **HugoFuchs** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 8:45 am

I prefer to run a rag over it, then acetone to clean it (make sure your hands are covered). Finally some http://www.clenzoil.com/store.html]Clenzoil to protect it.

[This message has been edited by HugoFuchs (edited 12-05-2003).]

Agincourt · Post by **Agincourt** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 4:39 pm

Seconds the use of GOOD gloves when dealing with this kind of stuff.

A. Keeps this stuff from eating your hands.
B. Keeps this stuff from going from your hands to your eyes, mouth, food, seat of your wifes jeans ect ect

C. It protects the metal from whatever oils, acids and other contaminants your hand carries.

CLANG · Post by **CLANG** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 2:36 am

I know it seems obvious, but COVER YOUR EYES WITH SAFETY GLASSES! Or goggles better yet. Just a tiny droplet splashing up in your face can make you one miserable &%#@! if it lands in your eye.

Also, while baking soda is a decent common neutralizing agent for acids, I've found that dilute ammonia is much more effective, especially during more delicate operations like bluing. Cold bluing solutions will continue to oxidise the metal until you have full-blown rust-and very quickly-even after you wash them off. Note that the ammonia will also erode the metal, but it washes away with warm water quite easily, while the acid does not.

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-Mark
CLANG Armory
http://clang.adkinssoftware.com

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 2:42 pm

Well I tested a couple of pieces of quite rusted mild steel metal by dipping them in vinegar. After a day or even two it looks like it works a treat. So instead of spending megabucks on swimming pool acid I'm off to get a bucket and a few litres of vinegar to soak my helm pieces in before riviting together.

Also I thought after taking them from the vinegar I would wipe them down then apply turtle wax to them to prevent further rusting until I decide what else to apply (if anything). Is it alright to move straight from the vinegar solution - dry it off - turtle wax idea? Nothing I have missed that should be addressed?

Saverio · Post by **Saverio** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 2:58 pm

I've found that it's best to take the piece out of the vinegar and put it into a water & baking soda. Then give it a quick rinse and dry.

When it is completely dry, then give it a coating of wax, oil, etc.

------------------
Saverio
aka Daniello di Alessandro

http://saverio4444.tripod.com/

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 11:07 pm

ok is that warm water and can i get a water/baking soda ratio and how long do I just have to dip it in. sorry if these seem stupid questions but I'm not familiar at all with this stage of things.
Cheers.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Saverio:
I've found that it's best to take the piece out of the vinegar and put it into a water & baking soda. Then give it a quick rinse and dry.

When it is completely dry, then give it a coating of wax, oil, etc.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Saverio · Post by **Saverio** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:26 pm

I put "a lot" of baking soda into about this much water

.

The tub was about 3 gallons and I added a few tablespoons of baking soda (a handful or so). I squished it around for a minute then took it out and rinsed it.

------------------
Saverio
aka Daniello di Alessandro

http://saverio4444.tripod.com/

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:13 am

gallons?! ok I'll have to find a conversion table...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Saverio:
I put "a lot" of baking soda into about this much water

.

The tub was about 3 gallons and I added a few tablespoons of baking soda (a handful or so). I squished it around for a minute then took it out and rinsed it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lubeck · Post by **Lubeck** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:36 pm

I've noticed some comments about oil I'd like to add my 2 cents too.

WD40 and 3in1 have a penetrating oil in them. They work good for geeting a rust off, but do not protect very well, as they are there to eat the rust off. I reccomend remoil from Remminton Arms (gun oil) or Rislone as a protectant. If your helm is rusty , and you just made it and want to keep it rust free than you should polish it. Rust will begin in scratches and cracks or joints. If you polish it just after you finish it you can insure a longer time before cleanings.

I just reworked most of my mild steel armor, and some for our Baron. I blackened mine a month ago with some cheap chemical system out of McMaster Carr, and it's not begun to rust yet despite the fact I haven't put any oil at all on it, and I leave it in the armor bag with a wet gambeson. (Flog me later for that confession.)

I polished his arm harness, and he's about as bad as I am about oiling. He too did no add any oil to the harness (I didn't want to start with WD40, as that would form a film barrier.) It was done about a 2 months ago and is just now beginning to develop spots. It would take about 5 minutes to buff them out though with a wheel.

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:51 pm

Well rather than applying regular layers of oil I was just wondering what kind of reaction/feedback from you guys about spraying on clear spray paint as a protective see-thru coat?

I did this a week ago to my partners helm and she seemed to be quite happy with it and it hasnt shown any sign of rust appearing anywhere at all. It looks pretty much the same with a little extra shine to it.

After I had soaked my helm pieces in vinegar to clean them up a bit I intended on rubing some turtle wax over them and then applying the same sort of clear spray.

As for buffing and polishing, I dont really want to buff and shine my armour up so that it is close to a mirror finish, after all I am not selling it and reaslistically - would it have been so shiny anyway when you were out fighting in the crusades?

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 4:46 pm

I don't think paint will stick to metal that has wax on it.

This is a good finish for maintenance:
Scotch bright 3m scrubbing pads and oil.
It gives a nice gray satin finish and it is easy to freshen up when needed. Look at my spangen.

It also looks historical to me.

------------------
Happy metal pounding

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:13 am

Sorry about regurgitating this post but I wanted to reply to Hal's message, which I never got around to before now.

What I had planned to do was cover the metal in turtle wax. Now after this when I had a chance to paint it I had planned to wipe the metal clean (or as clean of wax as I could get it) with some dry cloths and then I'd apply the paints. No scrubbing pads or oil.

I'll see how well that works but I am guessing it will be ok.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Halberds:
I don't think paint will stick to metal that has wax on it.

This is a good finish for maintenance:
Scotch bright 3m scrubbing pads and oil.
It gives a nice gray satin finish and it is easy to freshen up when needed. Look at my spangen.

It also looks historical to me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:29 am

From my experience with automotive painting, any wax should be removed with a solvent like paint thinner, before painting. Wipe the surface clean and do not get any finger prints on it.

Silicone and wax on your metal, is the enemy of paint. Also a good primer is nice.

Best of luck on your quest.

Hal

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:14 am

ok well how about this, maybe I will skip the turtle wax altogether and once I have removed my pieces from the vinegar, wipe them clean and then apply the paint straight on top of that??? Do I need anything besides a dry cloth to wipe the metal clean of vinegar before applying paint (such as turps, paint thinner etc)?

Also, I have a primer but not sure about putting it on, was just going to apply a few coats of alkyd enamel black paint (but I do have some metal primer paint). Is it that important? If so I could put a couple of coats on before the enamel.

I know these questions arnt prob that important but I've got to do all this in the next few days and I'm concerned I'll have to re-do it all. I've already applied the metal primer paint to the helm visor and then had to remove it with paint thinner due to the fact that the wet weather and damp atmosphere at the time wouldnt let it set. Trying not to have to repeat the same mistakes. Your help is much appreciated.

[This message has been edited by Wyrmspleen (edited 12-13-2003).]

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 12:41 pm

Yes it would be a good idea to scuff and clean the area to be painted for better adhesion.

This is a short overview on metal painting.
http://www.mar-k.com/MAR-K_Technical_Info/Installation_Hints/Painting_Preparation/painting_preparation.html

Hal

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Happy metal pounding