Waivers

Agincourt · Post by **Agincourt** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:06 pm

Ok, I have been looking into a way to minimalize the threat of lawsuit. All it would take is for one jackoff to decide that one of my helms should protect him from a live spear thrust to the face and then sue me when it doesnt.

Biggest snag I have run into is that legaly since Helms are made to a certain safety standard (SCA specs, ect ect) that they imply a certain degree of protection.

Now, I used to rodeo, and every piece of rodeo equipment I bought came with a waiver. It implied that although the piece of equipment was built to Association specs, that Rodeo was an inherently dangerous activity and the user assumed all responsibility for injury . I signed dozens of similar waivers every time I joined an Association or rode at an open Rodeo.

Anyone else have any similar ideas, or has anyone discussed with a lawyer about this subject?

horsefriend · Post by **horsefriend** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:16 pm

I believe that your scenario is a little to severe, if made to SCA standards the implied safety is only to SCA equipment. However, a nice boilerplate of, "not liable for any injury, etc. resulting from use of product, blah, blah, blah"; never hurts Also, do NOT pad and strap critical components, leave that liability to the customer. Best protection, high quality!

alail/scott

P.S. If you're a full-time armourer, the pockets aren't deep enough to make a suit woth persuing!

[This message has been edited by horsefriend (edited 01-06-2004).]

Lord Ogier · Post by **Lord Ogier** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:29 pm

How about a standard disclaimer like:

"This piece of armor is for display purposes only. The manufacturer assumes no liability due to uses other than display."

Or something similar on all pieces sold. The people know what they are buying and what it will be used for. It seems that this would cover someone's butt in court.

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Just my two cents, whatever they may be worth. -- Ogier

Lothar the Wanderer · Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:39 pm

Imagine these two statements in regards to the same item for sale:

"This piece of armor is for display purposes only. The manufacturer assumes no liability due to uses other than display."

"Built to conform to the rules of the list for SCA combat"

Any reasonably adept lawyer would have a field day with this.

I prefer, "This equipment is used to conform to the rules of the list for SCA rattan combat. Reasonable use of this equipment is done at your own risk, and only at SCA sanctioned gatherings with SCA sanctioned safety officers as responsible oversight. The sport of SCA combat is inherently dangerous and purchasers of this equipment do so at their own risk. Use of the equipment is considered agreement with this clause. Should you disagree, please return the equipment in resellable condition within 5 days for a full refund, less postage."

Even that, without a notorized signtature means little, but should be a decent CYA wording.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 2:16 pm

If you make your business a LLC (Limited Liability Corporation) you can shield your personal assets from lawsuits, to an extent. It may not shield the corporate officers' personal assets if they are shown to have been negligent.

But generally speaking, as a small-time LLC, you are a very unattractive target for a lawsuit, because most small-time LLCs have very little in the way of liquid assets.

Secondly, I make this disclaimer on my web site and on my product invoices that ship with all orders:

"Important Note!
Our armour is intended for costume use only! It is not intended to offer protection against anything. Because we cannot control how you use our products, Forth Armoury is not responsible for any injuries sustained while wearing our garments."

In our product descriptions, even our new line of helms, I do not claim that they are fit for use for SCA or any other kind of combat. I simply state the materials of construction. Anyone who is looking for SCA legal armour should know what the requirements are for that kind of armour and be able to shop accordingly.

Another hedge I have heard folks use is to ship the armour unstrapped. As you sold it, it is not useable as an armour. How the customer chooses to modify it and subsequently use it is up to them. I don't know how effective a defense this is against liability.

Steve

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Forth Armoury
Highly authentic, affordable riveted maille.

PaulyP · Post by **PaulyP** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:21 pm

ATTENTION: This is not legal advice!!!!

With that being said, I am an attorney and deal with these questions frequently. You won't get sued unless you have insurance because no attorney would take the case. Deep pockets are what matter.

Aside from that being said NOTHING you do can stop someone from suing you, they just might not win. I explain this to my clients all the time. (I represent a lot of businesses both big and small). If someone decides they want to sue you for no reason at all, they can do it. You might have a claim back against them but you are still going to have to hire a lawyer to defend the suit.

Now, picture this in front of a jury:

Plaintiff: I was injured while wearing a helmet made for me by the Defendant.

Your atty: What were you doing when you were injured?

Plaint: A guy was thrusting a spear at my face?

Atty: Excuse me can you repeat that?

Plaint: A guy was thrusting a spear at my face?

Atty: Did you sue him too? Did you file a police report?

Plaint: No.

Atty; Why not?

Plaint: Well, this is what I do for a hobby, you see it is called the ...

Atty: Wait a minute. You do this for fun? You purposely go somewhere where people hit you with swords or hit you in the face with a spear?

Plaint: Yes

Atty: And this is how you were injured?

Plaint: Yes.

Atty: When a guy hit you in the face with a spear?

Now, tell me a jury is going to side with the Plaintiff on this one. Sounds pretty ridiculous doesn't it? It's not too hard to make our hobby sound outrageously dangerous.

Does anyone know of one single documented lawsuit against either an armory or the SCA based on injuries? Just curious.

I wouldn't worry about it too much.

[This message has been edited by PaulyP (edited 01-06-2004).]

Coldwater Armourery · Post by **Coldwater Armourery** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:23 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Steve -SoFC-:
If you make your business a LLC (Limited Liability Corporation) you can shield your personal assets from lawsuits, to an extent. It may not shield the corporate officers' personal assets if they are shown to have been negligent.

But generally speaking, as a small-time LLC, you are a very unattractive target for a lawsuit, because most small-time LLCs have very little in the way of liquid assets.

Secondly, I make this disclaimer on my web site and on my product invoices that ship with all orders:

"Important Note!
Our armour is intended for costume use only! It is not intended to offer protection against anything. Because we cannot control how you use our products, Forth Armoury is not responsible for any injuries sustained while wearing our garments."

In our product descriptions, even our new line of helms, I do not claim that they are fit for use for SCA or any other kind of combat. I simply state the materials of construction. Anyone who is looking for SCA legal armour should know what the requirements are for that kind of armour and be able to shop accordingly.

Another hedge I have heard folks use is to ship the armour unstrapped. As you sold it, it is not useable as an armour. How the customer chooses to modify it and subsequently use it is up to them. I don't know how effective a defense this is against liability.

Steve

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Steve,
Great post. Now you have me calling my local out of work politician (I mean lawyer) and going to have to have a talk with him.

Thanks for the post and the information.

Louys
CWA

PaulyP · Post by **PaulyP** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:36 pm

Make sure that your lawyer explains what you need to do day to day to protect your personal assets. You can't just form an LLC and then forget about it. There are certain formalities that must be followed (though much less than with a corporation).

You also have to make sure to pay your yearly franchise taxes or you will not have the protection of the LLC. Also, some states do not allow single member LLC's. You have to have two or more participants in some states.

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:45 pm

As a side note liability waivers mean pretty much zero in canada. It's unconstitutional.

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The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

Patton Lives · Post by **Patton Lives** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:10 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mad Matt:
As a side note liability waivers mean pretty much zero in canada. It's unconstitutional.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<confused> I thought the constitution was an American document?

Chadwick · Post by **Chadwick** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:09 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Drachus:
 <confused> I thought the constitution was an American document?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Canada has a constitution also.

See:

http://www.uni.ca/what_is_const.html

-Keith/Austin.

[This message has been edited by Chadwick (edited 01-07-2004).]