Maile Gauntlets?

[Darwin_green]

I'm curious, how well do mail gauntlets work compared to clamshell type gauntlets?

I'm mostly asking because I'm getting impatient with my chain mail(just started) and i want make something small with it.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Bulky, and non-protective if you are going to fight with blunt objects.

[Moog]

Haha. I have mail gaunts.

Good for looks. They block a blow decently but clamshell and other plate gaunts would work better. depends on what your fighting with.

[Ernst]

Moog, Keeper of the Terminator Artichoke.

The good Baron is correct in that the SCA considers mail a costume accessory. Seperate mail mittens did see use in the early 14th century. If you intend to use them for the SCA you'll have to have a legal gauntlet underneath.

[losthelm]

an aventail or bishops mantle while being a larger piece tends to be a lot quicker to construct.
gauntlets take quite a bit of time to fit well.

Depending on the project and final use some folk go for a mad max look covering just the back of the glove.

A lot is dependant on what the intended use is for this type of project.

[Moog]

Moog, Keeper of the Terminator Artichoke.

The good Baron is correct in that the SCA considers mail a costume accessory. Seperate mail mittens did see use in the early 14th century. If you intend to use them for the SCA you'll have to have a legal gauntlet underneath.

haha. The whole SCA or just your region? sorry for such big pictures.

[sha-ul]

Haha. I have mail gaunts.

Good for looks. They block a blow decently but clamshell and other plate gaunts would work better. depends on what your fighting with.

hehe I see these & this is what comes to mind
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaley_Anteater aka Pangolin

[audax]

Moog, Keeper of the Terminator Artichoke.

The good Baron is correct in that the SCA considers mail a costume accessory. Seperate mail mittens did see use in the early 14th century. If you intend to use them for the SCA you'll have to have a legal gauntlet underneath.

haha. The whole SCA or just your region? sorry for such big pictures.

The whole SCA. Mail is not sufficent protecttion for the hands in rattan combat.

And that isn't mail, it's scale with mail on the palms.

[Konstantin the Red]

Welcome and well come to the Archive, Darwin_green!

I'm mostly asking because I'm getting impatient with my chain mail (just started) and i want make something small with it.

Butted mail particularly shines for SCA fighting is about the neck as a camail with a bascinet or a pseudo-coif attached right at the bottom of a bucket helm pretending to be an entire mail coif worn underneath -- and actually protecting the neck region rather better because it's suspended a bit outboard of the neck. By function, these two pieces are essentially identical.

Nearly as good is butted mail as a mail fauld -- a skirt of mail defending hips, upper thighs, and groin. Neck and hips present some pretty tough problems to engineer plate protection for. They figured out a comprehensive plate protection -- an articulated gorget -- in about the late fifteenth, and a combo of gorget and shoulder coverage in the munion, or almain collar, in the first half sixteenth. Anyway, for the neck the challenge was coming up with coverage that also allowed for nodding and head turning motions. The challenge for covering hips and letting them move was even more difficult, and mainly they just relied on making the saddle comprehensive enough to give cover. Foot soldiers took their chances, which they were already doing anyway, pretty much stopping at half-armor if that much, for weight reasons.

Either project, camail or fauld, takes about five to seven thousand links. These are among the smallest of really useful butted mail SCA-armor projects. There are smaller pieces like elbow patches for the crook of the elbow, but for rattan fighting these are not very necessary.

[Docniel]

All I've got to say is stick with it, and remember your measurements while weaving, I started with what was supposed to be a Fauld, sleeves; and ended up with a full Halburk and still working on the sleeves. They are almost a full sleeve. I will say this though, make sure you have something on underneath. Mittens or finger gaunts are time consuming. Maybe after I retire I'll try it again.
And welcome to the archive.

[Darwin_green]

yeah, i started on the chainmail because i more or less wanted to be a generic "Dark Age" warrior.

[Konstantin the Red]

Oh, Docniel... we're not going to have to teach you to leave any spare L's you might have lying around out of the word "hauberk," are we? Unless you're typing in Old German, which the rest of us could not read...

It's "HOW-berk" or "HAW-berk," take your pick -- ain't no hauling in it anywhere, nor any crazy science fiction computers neither.

[Docniel]

Well Heck, I guess there's another word I've got issues with. I keep forgetting that there are 3 n's in envirorNmental not two enviromental huh? No not old german, just spelling with an accent. Thanks for pointing that out Constantine the red.
Darwin remember, Maile, (and if my computer could spell in french it would be better) could be found throughout even up till the 15'th 16'th century if not longer, so keep at it and you'll be able to go to any time period

[Halberds]

I think maile gloves are cool.
Maile mittens are also cool.

Maile boots over street boots would be nice also.

With a maile shirt, one could be a crusader.
Just add surcoat, sword, helm and cross.

For a Norman, ditch the surcoat and cross.
Keep the sword.

Hal

[Steve S.]

yeah, i started on the chainmail because i more or less wanted to be a generic "Dark Age" warrior.

In the "Dark Ages", maille shirts were typically short-sleeved affairs. It is not until the latter part of the 11th century that we start to see long-sleeved shirts of maille. The Winchester Bible (circa 1160-1175) shows long-sleeved shirts of maille, though frequently without included hand protection.

[img]http://www.historiabari.eu/Documenti%20antichi/Image/Secolo%20XII/Winchester%20Bible%20(circa%201160%20-%201180).jpg[/img]

From the 12th-13th century full-length hauberks with integral mitten gauntlets become usual. The maille covers only the back of the hand, usually with the four fingers covered together with a separate appendage for the thumb. The palm is exposed leather, split so that the hands can be exposed for work if necessary.

You can see my attempt at this sort of garment here:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/Commission ... auberk.htm

pictures of my interpretation of the mittens are at the bottom of the page.

Steve

[Thomas Powers]

Hal's a Burk? I never suspected....

Many a mail project has been abandoned after only a couple of thousand links. I always wanted to collect the pieces and make together a patchwork shirt.

I worked on my 1/4" ID shirt for about 1.5 years before getting it finished.

Another short project is doing a maille tie, very snazzy with a black shirt. I do suggest only doing the front part and using a leather or cloth or elastic strap for the section hidden underneath the collar.

Thomas

[Donald St. Colin]

I have been fighting in maille gauntlets for 3 years. The maille is attached to the smallest hocky glove I can get my hands in. My fingers bottom out in the tips. I sewed the maill on with the glove flat. As I close my fist, the maille tightens and becomes a springy impact spreader. The maille does need upkeep, but just once or twice a year. The vulnerable spot is the same as for all gauntlets, its' the bottom edge or the hand. It gets struck while I'm throwing a shot, every now and then. Extra plates and padding help there.

[Docniel]

I've not thought about a tie, maybe I should make one for Father's day. Another project for maille, something I've just started working on is 3/4 chausse with a boot (sabbaton) covering. I'm hoping i don't have to order more rings. Speaking of which, anyone have butted rings just lying around and wouldn't mind shipping to Hawaii? Just curious.
Sweet Picture! I was trying to do something like that myself, Just never quite figured out the thumb.

[Ernst]

From the 12th-13th century full-length hauberks with integral mitten gauntlets become usual. The maille covers only the back of the hand, usually with the four fingers covered together with a separate appendage for the thumb. The palm is exposed leather, split so that the hands can be exposed for work if necessary.

You can see my attempt at this sort of garment here:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/Commission ... auberk.htm

pictures of my interpretation of the mittens are at the bottom of the page.

Steve

Separate mail mittens show up in the late 13th century as well. Then there are the mail covered fencing gloves from the 16th century. Scale covered mittens (not individual fingers like Moog's unwieldy example) sppear in the first third of the 14th century, perhaps sooner. Nothing "Dark Ages" about them as Steve has already pointed out.

Steve,

I'm looking at adding mufflers to a couple of SCA butted mail hauberks now. There's a St. Maurice casket I've linked on the IWB Hospitaller thread which seems to show bare skin or fingered gloves beneath the mail. A lot of effigies show the muffler doffed, and there doesn't appear to be any leather at all, just a big gaping hole with unlined mail showing on the inside of the mitten.

There is the surviving example from Wisby which has remnants of leather and stiching through the latten-edged muffler, and a few illustrations appearing to show a leather palm, slit either way.

Why go with a mail covered glove, or is this simply one more way to do things? I keep finding it's not a, "What's the way they did this?" area so much as a "What's a way this was done?" sort of thing.

[Steve S.]

I'm looking at adding mufflers to a couple of SCA butted mail hauberks now. There's a St. Maurice casket I've linked on the IWB Hospitaller thread which seems to show bare skin or fingered gloves beneath the mail. A lot of effigies show the muffler doffed, and there doesn't appear to be any leather at all, just a big gaping hole with unlined mail showing on the inside of the mitten.

Interesting. Perhaps if the wearer is wearing gloves, it was felt there was no need for additional leather palms. Or maybe they just were bare-handed.

There is the surviving example from Wisby which has remnants of leather and stiching through the latten-edged muffler, and a few illustrations appearing to show a leather palm, slit either way.

I have tried slitting the palms both across the palm (perpendicular do the direction of the fingers) and with the palm (parallel to the direction of the fingers).

When slitting with the palm, the problem is that when you make a fist the opening tends to pucker open, like those old rubber coin purses do when you pinch them. This makes for an uncomfortable sword grip.

When you slit across the palm and make a fist, the opening overlaps itself and closes up very nicely. So I prefer to cut across the palm.

Why go with a mail covered glove, or is this simply one more way to do things? I keep finding it's not a, "What's the way they did this?" area so much as a "What's a way this was done?" sort of thing.

One thing that continues to haunt and bother me, and I find over time I am leaning more towards, is the idea that maille garments were lined.

Maille is just...dirty. Even when "clean", when it rubs against something for any amount of time it leaves a grey dust on what it touches. With any kind of real use and sweat, it quickly rusts and dirties whatever it lies against. I know that medieval concepts of hygiene where different than today, but I cannot help but think that a warrior would be annoyed the very first time he took off his hauberk that the clothing worn under it was ruined and his skin was semi-tattooed with rust. Yes I know that in the material culture of a medieval nobleman many pieces of equipment were considered disposable without a second thought, and I know Chaucer speaks of the rust-stained gambeson of his knight in The Canterbury Tales, but I cannot help but wonder if a simple, lightweight liner would not have been used to head off these problems.

In the case of a ventail of maille drawn across the face, I cannot imagine this not being lined with some material, for comfort if for no other reason. In the custom commissions I made with full coifs and ventails in the past, I made a leather liner for just the face flap.

When I made the mufflers, I found it more comfortable to have the leather between the back of my hand and the maille than to have the maille directly on my skin. Especially as you flex and unflex your hand, the maille seems to "cheese grate" across your knuckles.

It is possible that maille was only lined where it was felt needed. But, like Thordeman, I still have this nagging suspicion that the whole thing was lined. I haven't done it personally because the last thing I want is yet another heat-trapping layer of material as part of the armour. But I'd like to try it.

It nags at me.

I'm surprised with all your research you have not come across passages that suggest a lining?

I remember hearing of research in later periods of maille sewn inside of garments to make a hidden armour, so clearly the idea of integrating maille into a textile garment is not unheard of.

Steve

[Ernst]

There is some evidence of lined maille armors, and there's always the hauberc jaserant references. (OK, I'm starting to agree with you on the issue of spelling it maille--too much time in OF manuscripts.) However, this doesn't appear to be anywhere near a universal practice. There's a mid-13th century English apocalypse where one of the separate coifs shows a tan edging around the face and inside the coif. Somewhere I have literary reference to the coif, probably still attached to the hauberk at that time, being lined with conie/rabbit fur. Still, the vast majority of effigies with coifs thrown back show no lining on the ventail, so I presume facial protection from the maille itself was generally provided by some sort of arming coif or hood like those shown at Wells Cathedral. I suppose the same argument could be made for under the mufflers, some sort of removable glove, padded or not.

To add to Chaucer's gypon besmottered by the haubergeon, I was instantly reminded of descriptions of the Templars as hirsute--sun tanned, dirty and grimy from their mission.

[Steve S.]

I suppose the same argument could be made for under the mufflers, some sort of removable glove, padded or not.

One of our reenactors in Novae Militiae, Brian Goering, had padded, quilted mittens integral with his gambeson.

Steve

[Ernst]

I suppose the same argument could be made for under the mufflers, some sort of removable glove, padded or not.

One of our reenactors in Novae Militiae, Brian Goering, had padded, quilted mittens integral with his gambeson.

Steve

I knew someone would do it--hell, I've considered doing it myself, but this is the kind of thing that bugs me.

Someone takes a gambeson with attached mittens based on images of militia in the Maciejowski Bible. Then, they turn it into an aketon to be worn under mail instead of replacing it.

Have you, or anyone on the Archive for that matter, ever seen effigies, manuscript miniatures, wall paintings, or other sculptures from the medieval period which show the mail mittens pulled off and revealing a padded glove (like the Maciejowski mitten) either remaining on the hand, or shown inside the exposed muffler????? Any single example from anyone?

As good as Novae Militiae is, I think that interpretation just ignores the evidence. It might bug me less if it was done in the SCA using butted mail and a host of other compromises, but I just can't see evidence for doing the muffler that way.

[Steve S.]

As good as Novae Militiae is, I think that interpretation just ignores the evidence. It might bug me less if it was done in the SCA using butted mail and a host of other compromises, but I just can't see evidence for doing the muffler that way.

I have no idea what inspired him to do it.

Steve

[Donald St. Colin]

Have you, or anyone on the Archive for that matter, ever seen effigies, manuscript miniatures, wall paintings, or other sculptures from the medieval period which show the mail mittens pulled off and revealing a padded glove (like the Maciejowski mitten) either remaining on the hand, or shown inside the exposed muffler????? Any single example from anyone?

I tend to agree. Even through they are usually praying in the effigies and would be bare handed, one would think with the detail that there would be gloves tucked and hanging from their belts. I can't see wearing maille mufflers without leather gloves or a liner underneath. Any skin left exposed to maille chaffes.
On the subject of under maille, I just wear one layer of linen all over, shirt and pants. I would actually shiver, for a second, on a hot day at Pennsic when a wind would blow. I guess the linen dumps a couple of degrees fast enough to trigger a reflex. It was cool.

[Steve S.]

I'll say that I as I recall Brian's gambeson also had provision to remove the hands from the integral mittens, just as maille hauberks do.

I suppose it is possible that in the pictures where the hands are shown sticking out of the maille mittens that their gambeson-integral mitten is still inside the maille, having the hand stick through them as well?

Steve

[Ernst]

I suppose it is possible that in the pictures where the hands are shown sticking out of the maille mittens that their gambeson-integral mitten is still inside the maille, having the hand stick through them as well?

Steve

I don't know, Steve. This effigy seems rather typical of mufflers which hang very loosely once removed. Clearly the aketon/gambeson sleeve ends at the wrist. I just don't see any bulk in the mitten to indicate an integral padding. Certainly bare skin wasn't left uncovered before pulling the muffler over the fingers???

http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilam ... 530183550/

[Ernst]

The previously mentioned post from the IWB Hospitaller thread. I think I'm seeing a pocket of mail over the fingertips and thumb, with a strap and exposed fingers, or a fingered glove?

From the Abbey of St. Maurice's Shrine of Abbot Nantelm, 1225.

http://www.abbaye-stmaurice.ch/home-home-english.html

[Ernst]

Another example of a big opening with no sign of a leather palm:

http://tetrapak.chez-alice.fr/Jean.jpg

And what appears to be mail covered palms with a horizontil wrist opening for the hand?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilam ... 530183550/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilam ... 530183550/

BUT....There're probably as many variations on how to do this as there were guys making hauberks with mufflers.

[Steve S.]

I don't know, Steve. This effigy seems rather typical of mufflers which hang very loosely once removed. Clearly the aketon/gambeson sleeve ends at the wrist.

Yeah, I agree it's a dumb idea.

Steve

[Ernst]

I hope it's not a dumb idea (as I noted I had considered it myself), but it seems difficult to document.

[Adam H.]

hehe I see these & this is what comes to mind
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaley_Anteater aka Pangolin

Apparently they make for a pretty sweet cuirass:



I know they're endangered, but I want one of these!!!

[Moog]

hehe I see these & this is what comes to mind
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaley_Anteater aka Pangolin

Apparently they make for a pretty sweet cuirass:



I know they're endangered, but I want one of these!!!

http://theringlord.com/images/products/scales/ericplumata.jpg
Is this close?

[Donald St. Colin]

http://theringlord.com/images/products/scales/ericplumata.jpg
Is this close?

That tripped the "gay-dar" across the eastern seaboard so big, Homeland Security called.

[sha-ul]

[url][/url]
Is this close?

That tripped the "gay-dar" across the eastern seaboard so big, Homeland Security called.