Setting aside our not permitting light weapons combat for the moment, is there something in particular about our kingdom's heavy weapons combat rules and conventions that are as far out of line with Society-wide standards as the Westie arm-hunting prejudice?
I don't know from 'out of line', but some of the things that I've adjusted to;
1. Overall a lighter calibration standard than Atlantia (that's not a slam against either kingdom, just an observation)
EXCEPT WHEN
2. Calontiris pick up greatswords and bastard swords. Christ almighty, I've never been hit so consistently hard. Calibration <i>definitely</i> goes up in those fights.
Caveat: I am <i>terrible</i> at those forms.
2a. If you are holding a greatsword or a bastard sword tourney, there's no thrusting.
3. The Calontir Army IS the kingdom and the Kingdom IS the Calontir Army. Period.
Overall, I dig it, with a <i>pickaxe!</i>
Winterfell wrote:What shape are your feet? You are not a Velicoraptor are you? It is so hard to tell on the Internet these days.
Here's the scene. Sunday province practice about 6 mo ago. North end of Reno near Stead.
Me and Michael McShaine (squire to Sir Connor MacAufly FitzJames, my step-dad) are fighting. Count Thyo of Calontir has just moved up here and is watching as his gear is still in storage. Thyo is still learning of the West's peculiarities.
I throw several overhand thrusts to mike's head, he deflects all enough so that when they land they go *wiff*. My very next Thrust I power lot's so that when he deflects most of the power it's still good.
With me so far? Good.
I thrust the shot. Mike doesn't... even... move... for the block. Unlike to previous 4 times, even though it's the exact same shot. WHAM! Right in the face, in the grill, on the nose, clean as you like. Mike's eye's widen and defocus, his head is rocked back, and I knock him back on one leg. I'm thinking about how bad I just screwed up.
As he is acknowledging the kill Count Thyo (who hit's like a ton himself I might add), newly from Calontir, exclaims "OH MY GOD!!! Is that how hard you guys thrust to the face up here!?!"
Simultaneously: Me: NO!, Mike: Yup.
I have never hit someone in the face that hard on purpose before, then, or since. Yet my opponent who is thoroughly honorable and not a monster striker himself thought it was fine.
I know this kind of face shot power happens in war's and I'm cool with that, and I don't know what the moral of this story is. I still think I screwed up, he still thinks it was fine, and Thyo (having fought me lots since) thinks that I should worry about other things.
On second thought mebe the moral is this: Stuff happens at full speed, accept it.
BTW I love my thrustie's, sometimes they come in real handy. I will be using them in the Cynaguan Coronet Tourney here in a few weeks.
Ask your friend to look me up, I'll be more than willing to answer any query's I can & direct him to folks for those I can't.
-Ivan Ivanovitch Serebrenikov
When the World shout's "Give Up!", Hope whispers "Try one more time".
"If you're a guy full of sh** without the gold medal...when you get the gold medal, you're still a guy full of sh**"- Didier Berthod, First Ascent
I live 2 hrs and a mountain range away from central kingdom, so I hear little of the fighter bitching that can go on.
Still....
I have been fighting for almost 10 yrs now and have lived in the West for 29yrs (I'm 30 and spent a year in An-Tir). I have never been taught, nor will I ever teach, a preference for or against hitting the arm.
I tell my student, as I myself was told, that if you have a bad stance and your arm get's too forward, it will be hit, by accident or on purpose. It's a legal target, get used to that.
Also, my Mom(Siobhan ni Seaghdha) has been fighting for about 25 yrs, and is left handed. When she first started she was told to wear better than light leather on her forearm, she replied that she was wearing more than the minimums so she would be fine. Within 30min of that conversation she received a nightstick fracture of the left arm while bringing her arm back to recover for another shot.
The arm is a legal target. I don't target it much because I have eye convergence issues so I can rarely see it TO target it.
As to dropping the arm in tourney (not war) to honor my opponent, I feel thusly:
If you are a lot better than me I will keep my arm and not drop my shield. I have worked hard to kill ya and I want that advantage I have rightfully earned. This is how I will honor your skill.
If I feel I have a chance in hell of winning against you single sword, then I will drop the shield. This is how I will honor my skill.
Is this as claer to read as it is murky in my head?
-Ivan
When the World shout's "Give Up!", Hope whispers "Try one more time".
"If you're a guy full of sh** without the gold medal...when you get the gold medal, you're still a guy full of sh**"- Didier Berthod, First Ascent
Well to follow in behind Ivan, and note im from the same local group as he is, this is my take.
Arm targeting is generally discouraged. If you stick your arm out in front of your shield in some funky guard, i will hit it. If i am going to the offside and hit it, i apologize and we continue fighting. The only time i will target though is if you are using it as cover or gaming the tradition. At that point i see it as fair game.
Thrusties? I have heard a few who dont like them. Generally though, they are standard equipment.
We do take face thrusts harder than some other areas though. I want my head to get rocked back firmly, unless its right in the eyes then i take lighter. We also fight with a presumed mail drape over the face which is where this comes from i believe.
I think your friend needs to get to know some more fighters from the west
Cheers!
Milan
Alesz Milayek z Opatova
Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges
"Discouraging arm hunting" and "not targeting arms" are two very different things. If you hit an arm, people will generally accept it as a legal target and proceed as normal. If you hang your arm out in some funky guard people will hit it. No big deal.
-Derian.
More or less no longer logging in to the AA. Have a nice life.
I don`t understand why this is even up to debate. You get hit in the arm, arm gets cut off. Arm gets cut off, it`s unusable. Simple.
warpiper wrote:
You are awesome. I owe you a beer should we ever meet. If you drink beer that is. You probably just drink the tears of the wives of your vanquished enemies
InsaneIrish wrote:5. prohibiting modern tennis shoes or cleats on the field 6. prohibiting hockey gloves as gauntlets
In Atlantia, the soles of your shoes are at your discretion but aany glaringly modern footgear must be disguised. Actually, tennis shoes would be disallowd both for appearance and fragility. "Tennies" are not very substantial.
Hockey gloves can be worn on a shield hand or in conjunction with a basket hilt if disguised. The disguising can be as simple as blacking-out all the labelling with which most modern hockey gloves are festooned. But you can't wear them to fight a two-handed weapon.
Donal Mac Ruiseart O. Pel
Squire to Viscount Tojenareum Grenville (TJ)
Be without fear in the face of thine enemies
Stand brave and upright that the Lord may love thee
Speak the truth always even if it means thy death
Protect the helpless and do no wrong
Some of the shields are a bit overlarge in my estimation. The majority of the kingdom uses 2' x 3' shields which are a bit big but I've seen that size pretty commonly with fighters in other kingdoms as well.
When I first joined Ansteorra fought with truly huge shields and very little armor. The fights were bloody boring as about the only way to get through them was a slot shot. King Mikael of Monmothshire declared that his Crown would be fought with shields of 2'x3' or less and there was a huge hue and cry. But a lot of fighters realized they could actually move them and be more effective.
I have lately changed to a 24" x 30" heater just because I feel my old shield looked too big and I want to look better on the field. There aren't many fighters in Ansteorra who fight with a heater this size so I'm kind of having to re-invent my fighting style. It's a long painful road.
When I first joined Ansteorra fought with truly huge shields and very little armor. The fights were bloody boring as about the only way to get through them was a slot shot.
Around 1980, a non-fighter lady I know moved to Ansteora and described her first Crown Tourney there as watching "walrus's mating".
She was rather shocked by all the very large men showing way too much skin, and the style with those immense shields...
Here's the scene. Sunday province practice about 6 mo ago. North end of Reno near Stead.
Me and Michael McShaine (squire to Sir Connor MacAufly FitzJames, my step-dad) are fighting. Count Thyo of Calontir has just moved up here and is watching as his gear is still in storage. Thyo is still learning of the West's peculiarities.
I throw several overhand thrusts to mike's head, he deflects all enough so that when they land they go *wiff*. My very next Thrust I power lot's so that when he deflects most of the power it's still good.
With me so far? Good.
I thrust the shot. Mike doesn't... even... move... for the block. Unlike to previous 4 times, even though it's the exact same shot. WHAM! Right in the face, in the grill, on the nose, clean as you like. Mike's eye's widen and defocus, his head is rocked back, and I knock him back on one leg. I'm thinking about how bad I just screwed up.
As he is acknowledging the kill Count Thyo (who hit's like a ton himself I might add), newly from Calontir, exclaims "OH MY GOD!!! Is that how hard you guys thrust to the face up here!?!"
Simultaneously: Me: NO!, Mike: Yup.
I have never hit someone in the face that hard on purpose before, then, or since. Yet my opponent who is thoroughly honorable and not a monster striker himself thought it was fine.
I know this kind of face shot power happens in war's and I'm cool with that, and I don't know what the moral of this story is. I still think I screwed up, he still thinks it was fine, and Thyo (having fought me lots since) thinks that I should worry about other things.
On second thought mebe the moral is this: Stuff happens at full speed, accept it.
BTW I love my thrustie's, sometimes they come in real handy. I will be using them in the Cynaguan Coronet Tourney here in a few weeks.
Ask your friend to look me up, I'll be more than willing to answer any query's I can & direct him to folks for those I can't.
-Ivan Ivanovitch Serebrenikov
The moral of this story ?
Don't throw a shot at your opponent with more force than you are willing to hit them with
Trimaris has had the opposite progression from Ansteorra. We used to ALL use tourney shields that were a max 32" long and max 19" wide. Things are very different now and it's specifically because of Gulf Wars and Ansteorra.
We, as a kingdom decided years ago that our penchant for small swords (often <30") and small shields was hurting us in the champions' battle at Gulf Wars. We only had a shield size rule for crown list but it set the culture. Judith and I got rid of the crown list rule and it hasn't returned and the culture has changed. In some ways I miss the old styles as I think they were more fun to play and to watch, but this way we are more competitive.
Hi,
This is how I look at the various kingdoms, they all have there own set of stupid rules, conventions, biases, etc. As someone who started in the West and moved to the East I can address this;
Arm shots; What I was always told was "Don't armhunt" that is don't seek out the arm to hit and since most Westerners used smallish shields there were other things to hit which don't involve standing there while the other fighter switches arms, etc. I had the attitude of "If you get it in the way it will get hit"
Thrusting tips; They are now used in the West but alot of the older fighters who came up in the 1970's and 1980's were brought up with "Only dorks in other kingdoms use them" attitude
Shield Size; There were (and still are) a number of people out there that feel if you are using anything over 24"X24" then you are cheating.
Milan H wrote:If i am going to the offside and hit it, i apologize and we continue fighting. The only time i will target though is if you are using it as cover or gaming the tradition. At that point i see it as fair game.
If you hadn't hit the arm, you generally would have hit them in the head, right?
Donal Mac Ruiseart wrote:In Atlantia, the soles of your shoes are at your discretion but aany glaringly modern footgear must be disguised. Actually, tennis shoes would be disallowd both for appearance and fragility. "Tennies" are not very substantial.
Hrm, medieval shoes (of the commonly available varieties, ie Revival, etc) aren't particularly "substantial" by that definition either.
I think the "arm hunting" convention gets trotted out once every couple of months here. This is how I think it is defined:
Got into a high iron chicken guard with your arm guarding your head, expect to get hit in the arm. A lot. Everyone in cool with this. (mostly)
Sit back in guard and wait for your opponent to throw a shot and then "chop" at his arm along the edge of your shield and you are probably going to get a few frowns. Maybe even a talking to.
It is kinda like porn... you know it when you see it.
Gaston, you have fought a lot of An-Tirians and are from Trimaris where I think arms are targeted a lot more often as primary targets. Thoughts on the above comments?
Milan H wrote:If i am going to the offside and hit it, i apologize and we continue fighting. The only time i will target though is if you are using it as cover or gaming the tradition. At that point i see it as fair game.
If you hadn't hit the arm, you generally would have hit them in the head, right?
Yeah probably. I just want them to know i wasnt sniping the arm.
Cheers,
Milan
Alesz Milayek z Opatova
Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges
Baron Alcyoneus wrote: That is tradition for Valor Tourney, other events...
I have a sample size of 2 events. Calon Jubilee and Valor. However, I have zero evidence (even hearsay) of great/bastard sword tourneys where thrusting it allowed.
Winterfell wrote:What shape are your feet? You are not a Velicoraptor are you? It is so hard to tell on the Internet these days.
Baron Alcyoneus wrote: That is tradition for Valor Tourney, other events...
I have a sample size of 2 events. Calon Jubilee and Valor. However, I have zero evidence (even hearsay) of great/bastard sword tourneys where thrusting it allowed.
Nobody thrust at Jubilee because the list fields were to small.
Thrusting does happen with greatsword fights, not alot because the thrust takes your sword offline and puts you into a massively defensive posture if you miss. But, thrusting is generally not prohibited.
Insane Irish
Quote: "Nissan Maxima"
(on Pennsic) I know that movie. It is the 13th warrior. A bunch of guys in armour that doesn't match itself or anybody elses, go on a trip and argue and get drunk and get laid and then fight Tuchux.
Guenievre wrote:Hrm, medieval shoes (of the commonly available varieties, ie Revival, etc) aren't particularly "substantial" by that definition either.
Donal Mac Ruiseart O. Pel
Squire to Viscount Tojenareum Grenville (TJ)
Be without fear in the face of thine enemies
Stand brave and upright that the Lord may love thee
Speak the truth always even if it means thy death
Protect the helpless and do no wrong
Baron Alcyoneus wrote: That is tradition for Valor Tourney, other events...
I have a sample size of 2 events. Calon Jubilee and Valor. However, I have zero evidence (even hearsay) of great/bastard sword tourneys where thrusting it allowed.
Nobody thrust at Jubilee because the list fields were to small.
Thrusting does happen with greatsword fights, not alot because the thrust takes your sword offline and puts you into a massively defensive posture if you miss. But, thrusting is generally not prohibited.
asbrand wrote:He also had this strange tendency of chopping his own leg off if he took your leg. No, not just dropping to his knees as an "act of chivalry" or anything...he'd actually whack himself in the leg and then drop down.
We still do that at fighter practice here. Not whack the leg, but tap it to let your opponent know why you're kneeling too. It's a gesture that says "I'm giving up the leg, you didn't take it." Important for practice. Don't want someone going around thinking the leg shot they throw works when it doesn't.
Marco-borromei wrote:Stay away from Akron, unless you're cruelly interested in experimenting on your children. Will they survive the schools? The drugs? The boredom? Will desperation motivate them to leave or to go native?
Louis de Leon wrote:We still do that at fighter practice here. Not whack the leg, but tap it to let your opponent know why you're kneeling too. It's a gesture that says "I'm giving up the leg, you didn't take it." Important for practice. Don't want someone going around thinking the leg shot they throw works when it doesn't.
Tapping it is one thing. Whacking it as hard as if I'd taken your leg is another.
Truthfully...he was chopping off his own leg.
After several times of trying to get him to stop doing that, I finally got him to stop after we fought, and as I came in, I just dropped to my knees. He backed off, whacked off his own leg, and dropped down. I then stood back up, said "Sucker..." and proceeded to continue the fight.
Yeah, a bit dickish of me...but I was young (not even 21 yet), and we *had* told him to stop being silly that way...
He eventually moved back to Midrealm, became King...and then got R&D'd later.
-Az
aka Baron Asbrand of Norway
Shire of Owl's Nest
Kingdom of Meridies http://www.asbrand.com
Ewan wrote:I think the "arm hunting" convention gets trotted out once every couple of months here. This is how I think it is defined:
Got into a high iron chicken guard with your arm guarding your head, expect to get hit in the arm. A lot. Everyone in cool with this. (mostly)
Sit back in guard and wait for your opponent to throw a shot and then "chop" at his arm along the edge of your shield and you are probably going to get a few frowns. Maybe even a talking to.
People must hate fighting me.
I do this. Hell, I hit people's arms out of the air from the inside while they try wrap shots. If they close to wrap, I take out the bicep as they throw it..
Hell, it's combat! I've been known to punch block a blow with the sword right behind it taking the inside of the arm. I chop off arms a lot....if it's there, I chop it right off. I never did understand not hitting it as we are simulating combat.
Lion of Irnham - Martial undertaking should never be a lowest common denominator endeavor.
Gaston de Vieuxchamps wrote:Many years ago an An tir squire explained to me that they hit a lot harder out there than we do in Trimaris and therefore arm blows were not safe because they would be breaking each other's arms all the time. He was a nice guy and seemed to be an otherwise reasonable fellow so I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, then I thought, "So why don't you wear any damned vambraces!!"
G
I cant think of a single person that fights without vambraces.
Gaston de Vieuxchamps wrote:Many years ago an An tir squire explained to me that they hit a lot harder out there than we do in Trimaris and therefore arm blows were not safe because they would be breaking each other's arms all the time. He was a nice guy and seemed to be an otherwise reasonable fellow so I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, then I thought, "So why don't you wear any damned vambraces!!"
G
I cant think of a single person that fights without vambraces.
um My Baron did and got his arm broke
I dont know your Baron, so how could I think of him?
(most people I know think fighting without vambraces is insane)
Which part, the small list field or that thrusting with a 6ft greatsword is not the most effective use of such a weapon?
Insane Irish
Quote: "Nissan Maxima"
(on Pennsic) I know that movie. It is the 13th warrior. A bunch of guys in armour that doesn't match itself or anybody elses, go on a trip and argue and get drunk and get laid and then fight Tuchux.
Calibration <i>definitely</i> goes up in those fights.
