Under the Cuisse

jonititan · Post by **jonititan** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:17 pm

Hello AA!

I'm currently making a cuisse to go with some articulated knees that a friend gave to me.

I have a pourpoint that the legs will point onto.
But I was hoping to make some sort of gambeson/cloth thing to point the leg pieces to.
That I could in turn point to the pourpoint.
Could anyone point me towards a pattern for this?

Cheers!

dacovalu · Post by **dacovalu** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:28 pm

What about padded cuisses?
I have no idea if historicly there was any padding beneath leg harnesses.

jonititan · Post by **jonititan** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:13 pm

I must admit I'm starting from the assumption that this is the case.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:19 pm

Incorrect assumption. The closest thing to any padding, under complete plate articulated legs, is the 'bulwarks' around the knees, which is merely a piece of blanket, wrapped as a towel, and held in place by the poleyn strap.

Plate armour does not need padding under it if it is made right, 'gambesons' were not worn under plate armour, descriptions of arming doublets generally have no padding mentioned, save at the shoulder on examples for the mounted melee.

jonititan · Post by **jonititan** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:29 pm

Righto.

Well would there be some sort of hose that the armour is pointed to?

Thats more what i'm interested in.

Getting it fitting right.

dacovalu · Post by **dacovalu** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:30 pm

depending on the era, the cuisses are pointed to the arming doublet, earlier than that im not sure about.

jonititan · Post by **jonititan** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:37 pm

when i say cuisse I mean the plate on the thigh
I'm hoping to be able to point all the leg armour to a base garment.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:46 pm

jonititan wrote:when i say cuisse I mean the plate on the thigh
I'm hoping to be able to point all the leg armour to a base garment.

Yes, we understand what a cuisse is.

There is little to no indication of them pointing to hosen at all, they would seem to have been suspended from the bottom edge of the arming doublet, and in point of fact, are largely supported by a properly cased greave itself with a turning pin/pin passing through the lowest lame of the cuisse under the poleyn - they tie to the arming doublet (by leathers provided at the top of the cuisse, and indicated on extant examples by a line of rivets across the top), which should be closely fitted, corsett like at the natural waist, is to help relieve and distribute some of the weight of them across the hips.

While arming hose is mentioned in some documents, there is zero mention of arming points on them, they are mentioned to be of a tough material, likely to reduce damage from abrasion of the harness. Again, they are not padded, the only padding on the leg being mentioned as 'bulwarkes' of blanket at the knee.

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:59 pm

This is a simple knee cop rather than an articulated piece, but the harness had mail, gamboised cuisses, and a plate cuisse, I believe the harness was dated to @ 1350

jonititan · Post by **jonititan** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:59 pm

Apologies

No I was not suggesting you or anyone else misunderstood the meaning.
I was trying to portray that I was possibly using the wrong term.

I had assumed that the armour would be supported from points since that was the way most of the arm harness's I have seen are supported.
The previous leg harness I previously used was indeed hung from the belt and later the pourpoint.

This led to quite high stress in this linkage.
I had presumed this was because I was doing it wrong in some way.
When it was loose the cop slid off my knee and when tight it either snapped or caused everything to rise up.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:20 pm

No worries.

More than one point is normally used on the cuisses leather. Late 14th-15th century cuisse would normally have cased greaves, very closely fitting to the calf, with a pin either centrally on the greave, or offest to the outside, which passed through the lowest lame of the cuisse under the knee. In Italian harness, there is usually a stap on this lame also, that passes through a staple on the rear of the greave, the whole arrangement supports all the parts of it.

Basically, most peoples European 'late period' leg harness issues are solved by properly fitted cased greaves, with pin or turning pin, locking the cuisse and greaves together as a unit in some fashion, and additionally supported by the arming doublet which they were pointed to.

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:23 pm

chef de chambre wrote:Incorrect assumption. The closest thing to any padding, under complete plate articulated legs, is the 'bulwarks' around the knees, which is merely a piece of blanket, wrapped as a towel, and held in place by the poleyn strap.

Plate armour does not need padding under it if it is made right, 'gambesons' were not worn under plate armour, descriptions of arming doublets generally have no padding mentioned, save at the shoulder on examples for the mounted melee.

Some German cuisses from the late 15th century have thin linen liners. For whatever thats worth...not really padding per say.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:22 pm

Something to keep the hose from getting chafed?

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:36 am

Konstantin, I believe that was the purpose.

jonititan · Post by **jonititan** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:55 pm

Is there a good link for doing greaves properly?

I have some old greaves i could repurpose.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:03 pm

Some of the best info on building closed greaves more historically that you could find is in TOMAR, Chapt. 34 Defending the Leg, pp. 467-72 et al. For any armor builder, this book is a must-read. Fitted, closed greaves help carry the weight of the rest of the leg armor, bearing this on the bulge of the calf and perhaps a little on the upper instep.

This led to quite high stress in this linkage.
I had presumed this was because I was doing it wrong in some way.
When it was loose the cop slid off my knee and when tight it either snapped or caused everything to rise up.

The cop slid off vertically, not flopping to one side or the other? This sounds like your main supporting point may not have been located where the length from beltline to knee would not vary -- along the trouser outseam, depending to the great trochanter of the hip. A lace or strap at the front of the hip will go very slack as the leg moves forward in a step or the knee comes up as you crouch. A lace or strap located behind the outseam location would be tightened a great deal with that leg motion; opposite side, opposite effect.

jonititan · Post by **jonititan** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:55 am

I'll look up the TOMAR book(is this an abbreviation?)

What is the trochanter of the hip?
Do you mean the point of the hip bone?
I will look it up.