Balsa jousting in the SCA

[Jonathon Janusz]

Wow! I'm glad Lloyd told me to check back in on this thread; a lot of stuff going on!

Gordon, no question about folks being aware of having coverage, just that I know the nits to pick in this arena in the US are a little different breed. I'm glad I got the wheels turning on that conversation here because it is so important to all our real lives. Cheers back!

Bev, not trying to ruff the feathers of those that know what's up, but if this is the "ground floor" for the SCA as an organization so to speak, and there are a bunch of interested folks in the SCA who have never been involved in this sort of thing before (both on the fields and the plain clothes stuff), who are looking up this thread to see what's up, I hope you can appreciate my initial tone as a bit somber such that everyone - new and experienced alike - knows equally what they are getting in to before the word go. I know there are a good number of things that would have made my life easier/better/safer having had heard them before figuring it out as I went along. Not that it looks like it now, but its less about the talking, more about conveying the understanding to listen to those who have broken themselves before on the task.

Leo, the folk doing much of the talking around here (far more so and better than I on a lot of subjects yet to come) are the ones with the knowledge. The people quietly reading the thread are those interested and willing enough to learn it; I just want to help build a perspective so those who don't have much to say (yet) can get on board too. I hope you having been down the road can appreciate the need to not assume anything given the stakes of the game moving up to this level, and that changing the stage will bring with it challenges that little other than similar experience can greatly, quickly, and most effectively circumvent. Thanks for being one of the people who stood at the front of showing this kind of thing can work!

Kilkenny, first, thank you for your appreciation. I did read the thread before investing the time in my first post in it, and I would hope that had shown in my post. I'm sorry if I misspoke, but I believed this to be a forum to discuss the nuts and bolts of getting this ship sailing and, having seen an opportunity to offer some insight and tone, I thought myself welcome to contribute. Regarding Rod, in particular I wanted to underscore his breadth of his knowledge regarding the different time periods attempting to be covered by the organization and how I thought he could be asked to advise on some of the earlier topics that were touched on in thread. I think I can safely say that I know better than many if there is something to do with jousting going on in the world, he's never far away. If I am mistaken in the focus of this thread, please let me know and I'll respectfully withdraw.

Dave, I hope please that you haven't seen my thoughts as calling you or anyone else directly to task on any particular point. Just glad to be of some use if I can be so. Congratulations on the progress in moving this forward! I really think something very, very special and bigger than any of us could be all but just around the bend.

Lory, HI! Sorry, nothing fancy; just been a long time and thought I'd say hello.


Again, respectfully, and in service as best I can manage.

[Sir Alexis]

Hi Jonathon,
Don't worry, not too likely to take offense I appreciate the input, since one of the biggest challenges we are facing here is getting folks on the same page. While we are just getting balsa going now in the SCA, we have had equestrian programs going for decades with a pretty solid track record. Here in Texas we've had tournaments featuring the foam lances for years that have gone well with no injuries. With that said, we have to contend with the same issue every group does; trying to maintain consistently high standards when the local resources are often limited. Moving to balsa will necessarily thin the ranks with the additional training and equipment requirements.
From the responses I've gotten back so far it is looking like there are pockets of folks that should be able to get together within a reasonable drive time, so it is a matter of organizing things. The next step will be getting them to work together to the point a tournament can be organized once the training and equipment reaches a point that it's appropriate. (Which it has already reached in some places). Once we get folks offering to put tournaments together, I'm sure folks will lend their expertise to help make them the best tournaments possible.
Regards,
Dave/Alexis

[Jefferson]

Thanks for the open discussion...as a long-term lurker, this is the one activity that would draw me to joining the SCA and participating wholeheartedly. I wish you the best success with this, and I can't wait to take part in the competition!

Sincerely,

Jefferson Pike
www.chivalryconcepts.org

[Richard Blackmoore]

I pretty much agree with everything Alexis wrote.

Most SCA equestrians I know have no business doing balsa jousting, they either don't have the right equipment or all the necessary skill sets.

Some do.

For those that do, balsa jousting is still dangerous, but I think it is a worthwhile pursuit that we should encourage.

We DO need to avoid letting just anyone do it, or a horse, spectator or rider is going to get badly injured.

Personally I have zero interest in foam jousting, but agree it is a path for some to get a taste of using a 'real' lance, but it isn't the same thing.

When you start blasting through rattan tips at speed and getting really solid socket/ferrule strikes, very bad things can happen especially to those in inadequate armour or those lacking a good seat.

Even experienced, smart, careful jousters do get injured from time to time. IIRC Jeff (Hedgecock) broke his hand in England after a particularly ferocious hit (no arrets allowed at that joust if I remember Gwen's explanation accurately).

The potential for injury or death when riding horses is always there. Personally I accept the risk and take steps to greatly reduce the likelihood of injury. So I rarely get hurt in any significant way, compared to many injuries from rattan combat. However the POTENTIAL for very serious injury or death is simply higher when horses and weapons are involved.

Comparing rattan combat to balso or even foam jousting, is just different. They are kind of apples and oranges. And the fit and quality of armour matters a lot. However for experienced fighters and jousters who are physically fit and properly trained? You are more likely in my opinion to get injured in rattan combat, those injuries however are rarely life threatening. However if something goes very wrong, you are more likely to get killed, badly maimed, crippled or paralyzed if something goes wrong when riding a horse.

Richard Blackmoore

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

When you start blasting through rattan tips at speed and getting really solid socket/ferrule strikes, very bad things can happen...

Surely, you mean "blasting through -balsa- tips?

Even experienced, smart, careful jousters do get injured from time to time. IIRC Jeff (Hedgecock) broke his hand in England after a particularly ferocious hit (no arrets allowed at that joust if I remember Gwen's explanation accurately).

I have fractured bones my right thumb twice. The first time was in a display joust at the Tower of London. It hurt a lot. Lance recoil and many avoidable factors fractured my thumb's first metacarpel in three pieces, requiring surgery to realign the fragments with pins. If the fragments had healed misaligned, it would have excessively worn the joint cartilage over time and I would have seen arthritis within 1-2 years. That was in Sept '07 and so far so good.

The other time was just this last August at the RA Leeds Individuals, when lance recoil caused a hyperextension of my thumb. The ligament in the web of my thumb pulled a small chip of bone off the inside of the 2nd metacarpel's base. Didn't hurt much. 4 weeks in a cast stabilized the chip allowing it to begin healing. 2 weeks after that I jousted in our tournament.

In the first case I should have used an arret which would have absorbed the impact. I just wasn't as practiced with it as I wanted to be, so decided against it. I could have used one at my discretion.

The second time arrets weren't allowed. Gauntlets are allowed, but they decrease my grip, so I opted against one. I'm using one now though, to help support my thumb against hyperextension and the recoil. For that to work though, the gauntlet needs to fit exactly right. Badly fitting gauntlets can cause injury rather than preventing it.

[Kilkenny]

Jeffrey, do you recall earlier in this thread when you pretty well jumped down my throat regarding a comment I made that people get hurt jousting ?

Most people, including me, consider a bone break that requires pinning to be "hurt".

Just sayin'

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

People routinely get hurt when jousting.
It is expected.

Its ok though because Pain=Glory and chicks dig scars.

[Leo Medii]

In regards to injury, it is like Richard said. There is more likelyhood of gatting injured in rattan fencing then there is in jousting. However, there is a greater chance of a more serious injury when that smaller percentage happens.

And, dislocation of the thumb, broken thumb, and groin injury are the most common jousting injuries.

[Richard Blackmoore]

When you start blasting through rattan tips at speed and getting really solid socket/ferrule strikes, very bad things can happen...

Surely, you mean "blasting through -balsa- tips?

Even experienced, smart, careful jousters do get injured from time to time. IIRC Jeff (Hedgecock) broke his hand in England after a particularly ferocious hit (no arrets allowed at that joust if I remember Gwen's explanation accurately).

I have fractured bones my right thumb twice. The first time was in a display joust at the Tower of London. It hurt a lot. Lance recoil and many avoidable factors fractured my thumb's first metacarpel in three pieces, requiring surgery to realign the fragments with pins. If the fragments had healed misaligned, it would have excessively worn the joint cartilage over time and I would have seen arthritis within 1-2 years. That was in Sept '07 and so far so good.

The other time was just this last August at the RA Leeds Individuals, when lance recoil caused a hyperextension of my thumb. The ligament in the web of my thumb pulled a small chip of bone off the inside of the 2nd metacarpel's base. Didn't hurt much. 4 weeks in a cast stabilized the chip allowing it to begin healing. 2 weeks after that I jousted in our tournament.

In the first case I should have used an arret which would have absorbed the impact. I just wasn't as practiced with it as I wanted to be, so decided against it. I could have used one at my discretion.

The second time arrets weren't allowed. Gauntlets are allowed, but they decrease my grip, so I opted against one. I'm using one now though, to help support my thumb against hyperextension and the recoil. For that to work though, the gauntlet needs to fit exactly right. Badly fitting gauntlets can cause injury rather than preventing it.

Hi Jeff.

Yes, I meant balsa not rattan. Typing when tired again, sorry.

Your injury with the pins is the one I remember Gwen telling us about. I'm glad to hear you are doing well. I have permanent nerve damage in my right hand from breaking the thumb twice from two separate rattan combat injuries in the mid/late 1980's; it has gotten much better over the decades, but it will never be 100% and will likely lead to premature arthritis according to the Dr.s'.

Richard (James Peck)

[2Shires]

Richard Blackmoore said:

Most SCA equestrians I know have no business doing balsa jousting, they either don't have the right equipment or all the necessary skill sets.

Some do.

For those that do, balsa jousting is still dangerous, but I think it is a worthwhile pursuit that we should encourage.

We DO need to avoid letting just anyone do it, or a horse, spectator or rider is going to get badly injured.

Most SCA equestrians don't even foam joust. Of those that do, I anticipate very small numbers that will come over to balsa. I have a feeling what we are more likely to see is balsa folks coming into the SCA for an additional venue.

I absolutely agree the standards need to be kept high. If the powers that be are pressured into lowering the bar for the sake of allowing everyone access, well, that is asking for trouble. I will have faith though that this will be done right. I'm just an optimist like that.

Gavin Kilkenney Said:

Jeffrey, do you recall earlier in this thread when you pretty well jumped down my throat regarding a comment I made that people get hurt jousting ?

Most people, including me, consider a bone break that requires pinning to be "hurt".

There is balsa jousting and there is balsa jousting. Jousting with a prepped 3' tip, is apples to kumquats compared to what you see the Shane Adams and I believe Trystyn's and Cliff' Bassett's group are doing for instance. They are using closet rods with or without a 1' balsa tip just to grab.
(Trystyn feel free to jump in here if I am not right)

Unhorsings are a lot more common. There are a lot more injuries there. Their armor gets bashed all to heck. I'm sure they have a grand time but I need to be at work Monday morning. I'd prefer to stay on the horse if at all possible. I love a hard hit. I love to hit hard, but those guys crazy! I like watching tho.

There will be random injuries in any sport. This one is no exception.

Bev

[Lloyd]

Bev is right about the different lances used by the old WCJA and the Freelancers. It is a 10' 1 1/4" inch wooden dowel (usually pine from Home Depot and the like) with a 1' balsa tip. The tip is designed to hold down the splinters generated by the wooden body of the lance breaking (still happens, but far less often) and getting into the occulars of the helm. Most of these are fitted with vamplates and steel grappers and many, myself included, used arrets attached to the breastplate (broke my right thumb multiple times before attaching the arret and none afterwards).

These lances hit A LOT harder than IJA style 3' balsa tip lances and there are a great many more unhorsings due to this (funny thing, a great number of unhorsings occur when a lance does not break, building up a huge amount of potential energy that is transferred back into the knight that is using it and this, combined with a hit from the opponents lance, sends you to the ground quickly). Good Case in Point - Rod Walker and Ripper Moore at the 2003 World Championships.


There is a ton of technique involved in driving through a 3' balsa tip and then putting the ferrule into the ecranche, and it takes years of steady practice to develope this skill. Though, it is pretty spectacular when it happens.

This is more representative of balsa jousting - Rod vs. Jeremy O'Neil

Again, I am more than willing to help out. The IJA USA has a Yahoo Group with a few years of emails regarding various balsa jousting questions - feel free to apply for membership.

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

Jeffrey, do you recall earlier in this thread when you pretty well jumped down my throat regarding a comment I made that people get hurt jousting ?

Most people, including me, consider a bone break that requires pinning to be "hurt".

Just sayin'

I don't think I "jumped down your throat", but made a logical reasonable argument. Perhaps you should go back and re-read what I said. I was trying to present a good argument for good and historical armour. I did NOT say injuries didn't happen, just that good armour helps to reduce them.

In 7 years of jousting, I've seen an extremely small amount of injuries in the hundreds of courses run. It would be idiotic of me to say that injuries -don't- happen in balsa jousting. The other side of that coin is that it should not be said that injuries are -routine- in balsa jousting. They aren't. They are the extreme exception, thankfully. That's why I do balsa jousting rather than other types. I, like Bev, need to work after doing a joust, and balsa gives me the closest experience to what I think is historical with a minimum of risk.

I never said it wasn't possible to get hurt in historical armour. Strictly speaking, the armour had nothing to do with my hurting my thumb twice. It had to do with the way I used my armour, partly through my -choice- in the first case, partly through the rules at the Armouries in the second. I chose to use my armour in a non-historical way and paid the price at the Tower. I didn't use my arret de cuirass, as would have been historical practice. The armour would have done it's job if I'd used it properly, so that's not the armour's fault, but mine. At the Armouries they don't let us use arrets because they think it will cause more unhorsings. In that case -they- prevented me from using my armour properly.

In both cases, these injuries are -rare- in balsa jousting, and hand injuries are NOT endemic to balsa jousting as they have been previously in other types. I understand changes have been made in solid lance jousting which have reduced injuries, but that's another subject.

[Leo Medii]

I wish I would have done the balsa jousting instead of the years of solid lances at Ren Faires. I'm also glad I quit when I did before I got so damaged that, like Lloyd, I'd be forced to retire and not even be able to do the balsa.

People ask me often about the years of Ren Faire jousting and the hits with the solid pine dowls and I tell them it's like being a pro football player only without the big paychecks and health care and nationwide fame. I still have fond memories (or not so much) of the broken fingers, wrist damage, carpal tunnel, multiple concussions, dislocated items, dragging down the list through poles, being told I wasn't covered under New Riders coverage when a double unhorsing left me with a 4X4 to the back of the head and retrograde amnesia for three days, cervical vertebrea damage, lumbar degredation, scars under the chin from passes with no targets in Texas..... Yep...good times...good times...

Like Jeff, I prefer the IJA balsa jousting because I have real life to attend to after the weekend. It still does not stop the egomaniacle assholes of the jousting world that call you out all the time to do the solid lance jousting when the subject comes up. Been there, done that, got the blood on the t-shirt.

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

I still have fond memories (or not so much) of the broken fingers, wrist damage, carpal tunnel, multiple concussions, dislocated items, dragging down the list through poles, being told I wasn't covered under New Riders coverage when a double unhorsing left me with a 4X4 to the back of the head and retrograde amnesia for three days, cervical vertebrea damage, lumbar degredation, scars under the chin from passes with no targets in Texas..... Yep...good times...good times...

Holy shit, Jason!! I'd say you took more than your share of punishment. Glad you came out of it alive.

Yup, I'll take my little thumb breaks in 7 years of balsa jousting, thank you very much. Reality is, I work with my hands and can't afford to be broken, even the thumb stuff.

Coming to Castleton? It would be fun to cross lances with you.

[Leo Medii]

I'd love to Jeff!

When is it? Were is it? And are there strict armor requirements for attendance?

Does the event have a web site?

Thanks!

[Kilkenny]

The inclusive nature of the SCA will eventually have somebody get hurt even just testing someone.

sorry i wasn't very clear before.

I see. Perhaps I've missed something, but I was under the impression that people get hurt jousting. Even very skilled people with good equipment.

I'm afraid your impression is inaccurate. Perhaps you are repeating what has been said by a number of jousters out there who believe they're doing it at the top level with good equipment, then brag about the injuries they've sustained while jousting? For me those puzzle pieces just don't fit together.

The fact is, if you're jousting with well made equipment that fits well and is designed after historical examples, it is VERY possible to joust with minimal and possibly -no- injury. I don't equate injuries in jousting with doing it at a top level. Professional and elite amateur sportsmen compete at a top level without injury all the time. It's because they pay attention to what they're doing and do everything they can to reduce the risks. In another field, would you hire a stuntman who bragged about how banged up he got, or the one who rarely got hurt? My point is, the best athletes compete hard, make it "look" easy and come away from it without getting hurt. Injuries aren't something to brag about. They point out that mistakes have been made.

Our ancestors had much more experience at this than we do and knew what they were doing. We should pay attention to them, and most jousters that do have jousted regularly for years with minimal risk and injury. It's how you approach and execute the game and what you use while doing it. When someone re-invents the wheel and thinks that we can do it better than was done historically but with less knowledge or effort, someone will probably get hurt.

If people sustain regular and repeated injuries from jousting and it's a problem for them, they need to do it differently. They need to re-examine their practices and equipment and alter it to reduce the risk. This is what sensible athletes who want to participate long term in their chosen sport do. Continuing with unnecessarily risky practices doesn't prove how tough somebody is, it just proves their unwillingness to learn and change.

Just like it is with any other risky sport, jousting doesn't inherently equal injuries. Stupid and ignorant jousting does.

There's the exchange.

I don't think I mischaracterized anything.

[Lloyd]

I wish I would have done the balsa jousting instead of the years of solid lances at Ren Faires. I'm also glad I quit when I did before I got so damaged that, like Lloyd, I'd be forced to retire and not even be able to do the balsa.

People ask me often about the years of Ren Faire jousting and the hits with the solid pine dowls and I tell them it's like being a pro football player only without the big paychecks and health care and nationwide fame. I still have fond memories (or not so much) of the broken fingers, wrist damage, carpal tunnel, multiple concussions, dislocated items, dragging down the list through poles, being told I wasn't covered under New Riders coverage when a double unhorsing left me with a 4X4 to the back of the head and retrograde amnesia for three days, cervical vertebrea damage, lumbar degredation, scars under the chin from passes with no targets in Texas..... Yep...good times...good times...

Like Jeff, I prefer the IJA balsa jousting because I have real life to attend to after the weekend. It still does not stop the egomaniacle assholes of the jousting world that call you out all the time to do the solid lance jousting when the subject comes up. Been there, done that, got the blood on the t-shirt.

I am working with my Docs to see if I couldn't balsa joust safely. The issue is the last concussion I received left about 3 month blank in my memory (August through the end of October 05). While the brain MRI and congitive testing came out alright, it was my 11th or 12th concussion (most due to football and rugby, not jousting) and the memory loss worries them.

I am pretty sure that I put most of my Orthopedic surgeons children through college - BUT, most of my jousting injuries occurred while I worked at Medieval Times (trust me, that place tore me up), with mainly just broken hands (and ribs once) while jousting with solid lances. I am hopeful that I can get back into jousting competitively, if not, I will be okay just training folks and judging.

[Leo Medii]

Well, I for one hope you can come back...



But...no, you can't have your helmet back!

[Eule]

I'd love to Jeff!

When is it? Were is it? And are there strict armor requirements for attendance?

Does the event have a web site?

Thanks!

Leo, I'm the Event Steward for "The Lysts at Castleton 2010" and we're putting the website together even now. However, the site from 2009 is still active but will give you some idea of the details. http://lysts.swordworks.org/ The new site should be live in a couple of weeks...when it is, I'll post it to this list.

The event will be held in Austin, Tx April 9-11, 2010.

This is an SCA event and I am about to send in an IJL affiliation request to Fred. As I understand it, if accepted this will be the first SCA/IJL affiliated event.

More details to follow, however if anyone has any questions, please feel free to drop me a line.

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

I'm a heavy fighter in the SCA, My mom is a heavy fighter and is heavily involved in the Equestrian thing in the West Kingdom, and I live with a couple of avid rock climbers.

Injury conversations can be summed up like so:

SCA Heavy: You can get hurt sometimes, the worst I got was "X" injury one time, I was OK in 6 weeks.

Horse Riding: Sometimes you fall, get concussed, not so bad. I know that the horse rolled over me but I wasn't hurt, so no worries, just a sprain.

Rock Climbers: Oh yeah we get hurt! Wanna see this one? Lemme show you this video called "The Sharp End". Only thing I wouldn't do is Free Soloing. Even with a BASE chute it's too dangerous. Wanna come trad climbing with us this weekend?

I guess it's all perspective.

BTW Cool videos!

-Ivan

[^]

I am working with my Docs to see if I couldn't balsa joust safely. The issue is the last concussion I received left about 3 month blank in my memory (August through the end of October 05). While the brain MRI and congitive testing came out alright, it was my 11th or 12th concussion (most due to football and rugby, not jousting) and the memory loss worries them.

I am hopeful that I can get back into jousting competitively, if not, I will be okay just training folks and judging.

After watching a news report on NFL players who now have developed dementia as they have gotten older, even if just for your family's sake don't do it. Just because you are alright now doesn't mean you don't have damage that will appear later.

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

I don't think I mischaracterized anything.

And nor do I. Perhaps it's just a difference in interpretation. I suppose we'll just have to disagree on this one. I didn't intend to cause offense and apologize if I did. However, I stand by what I said.

[Joust Junkie]

Lloyd Clark Wrote:

I am working with my Docs to see if I couldn't balsa joust safely. The issue is the last concussion I received left about 3 month blank in my memory (August through the end of October 05). While the brain MRI and congitive testing came out alright, it was my 11th or 12th concussion (most due to football and rugby, not jousting) and the memory loss worries them.

I am hopeful that I can get back into jousting competitively, if not, I will be okay just training folks and judging.

Lloyd, I'm with the others on this one in agreeing that with your history of concussions, you may want to rethink this. I know you have younguns who would really like to have a daddy with all his faculties to see them graduate high school someday. Multiple concussions are BAD NEWS no matter how you slice it. Even if you got back to balsa jousting with IJA rules and didn't ever get unhorsed, there is still ricochet to your body & up the neck from getting hit which could cause further damage to an already damaged braincase.

In my most recent "unscheduled dismount" from a horse, I smacked the front of my head against a tree stump (horse tripped at the canter). Fortunately, I was wearing a riding helmet which took the majority of the impact (and cracked as it should). BUT, I was totally blinded and in the dark for nearly 30 long, very scary mintues from the jostling my brains got inside my skull...specifically my visual cortex and visual nerve terminii. My vision eventually came back but it scared the C*ap outta me!!!

I got myself checked out and there was no concussion but I was told that damage to the visual cortex is very common for horseback and motorcycle riders even when they wear helmets because of the movement of the brain inside the skull in an impact.

Just sayin,

ariadne

[Sir Alexis]

Hi all,

Back from several trips and hoping to get things moving along on the discussions. Following is round 1 of the proposed armor regs for the balsa jousting. I have looked over the standards of a number of groups and formatted it in the style used in the other SCA marshal's handbooks. What I would like to hear is input from folks on whether these need to be adjusted or re-worded so that the meanings are as clear as possible. One basic issue is thicknesses for helm and breastplates. I've followed the discussions here and elsewhere and from what I can tell most of the folks are using better quality steels, so they are likely to fall under the 'equivalency' provisions (I would argue that hardened 0.040 4130 as equivalent to 14 gauge mild, for example, based on my personal experience, although I'll probably still use at least .050, or maybe 0.060 for critical areas).
Either way, the goal here is to get the armor specs out of the way, so we can move onto the next topic of getting some practices and tournaments going

Regards,
Dave/Alexis

Proposed armor requirements for balsa jousting in the SCA:
1. Armor requirements: The following guidelines are based on recognized standards for jousting as currently practiced in the United State and abroad. Participants must determine for themselves what armor is necessary to provide a level of safety that is acceptable to them. When determining the suitability of armor to be used for jousting, it must be recognized that fit and finish are as important as materials used to provide the protection that armor affords. In addition to the following individual specifications, the armor should constitute a recognizable harness as the components work together to provide the protection.
(a) Helm.
(1) Helms must be of 14 gauge (1.6 mm) mild steel or equivalent.
(2) The eye aperture must present no more than a .60 inch (15mm) width to an on-coming rider.
(3) The face guard shall extend at least 1 inch (25.4 mm) below the bottom of the chin and jaw line when the head is held erect.
(4) All visors shall be attached and secured closed by use of hooks or other means during jousting. This requirement is a compromise to enhance safety, even if not historically accurate for the helmet.
(5) There shall be no major internal projections; minor projections of necessary structural components shall be padded. All metal shall be free of sharp edges. Face guard bars or mesh should not attach to the interior of the helm, unless of structurally superior design and workmanship.
(6) All parts of the helm that might come into contact with the wearer’s head shall be well padded with a minimum of 1/2 inch (12.7mm) of padding to provide a comfortable and secure fit.
(7) All helms shall be equipped with a sturdy chinstrap or equivalent means to prevent the helm from being dislodged or metal contacting the wearer’s face during use. A “snug fitâ€

[Lloyd]

Hi Dave,

I just took a quick look (I'm at work) and will give it a more thorough review when I get home. Can I email you directly with questions?

[Jehan de Pelham]

I'll weigh in briefly.

I rely upon my body for income, and I have placed it at hazard in my work life. I have laid four concussions upon my frame totally not related to fighting for fun, but no broken bones. That said: I would like no more concussions, and broken bones or joint damage would negatively impact my earning potential and quality of life because at 38 you just don't heal as well as you once did when you could conquer the world. I've found that Irish luck means that sometimes you can be tossed over a fence in harness and get back up, but it's a dice roll I prefer to avoid.

I would prefer to joust and sport with gentlemen who have something to lose as I do, who bedress themselves safely, conduct themselves safely, and who require the utmost chivalry from their fellow riders. By chivalry in this case, and in this topic of discussing safety, practices, and the discussion over lances, I mean being able to sustain the practice of jousting and live outside of jousting. Anyone who pursues an activity that aggressively ablates their quality of life is a fool. There, I said it. They may be all kinds of tough, they may be all kinds of careless, whatever, but bottom line I in my case have a duty, a wife, and a daughter. Whatever comes after those duties, I get to have for myself. Jousting and horseback chivalric sport falls into that "nice to have" category no matter how much I feel it's a calling of my spirit.

I take it seriously when folks like Lloyd and Jason weigh in and say that the glories of their youth are erstwhile memories that do not pay as well with the passage of time.

As regards the proposed armor standards, I would be curious about #7, regarding chin straps. Sometimes, a helmet is safer flying from the head than being tied to it. There are some aspects of jousting that do not merit direct translation from the rules of the list.

The equivalencies will require definition, as regards to thickness and strength of materials required.

Best,

John

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

My first two notes are:
1. Leather gorgets may not stand up to lance passes no matter how thick or rigid they are. Gorgets are one of the first things that get sweated up.
2. Wooden shields can shed splinters which can be a detriment to both rider and mount. We (WCJA-style) use metal shields that last longer and do not shed any splinters.

That being said, I otherwise remain thrilled that the SCA is gonna let us joust finally, even if it is with 3 foot balsa inserts. We here in the mid-Atlantic area are ready and rarin' to go...

[Sir Alexis]

Hi all,
I have been trying to keep this as an open dialog because I think it benefits everyone to have transparency in the process. It is a lot easier to implement standards when folks know the reasons why they are there. Since all rules represent a balancing of the relevant factors, knowing the priorities of the folks making the rules is a good thing in my experience.
I hope it is apparent that there is a bit of flexibility in the armor standards. One reason for that is that I don't want anyone thinking that armor built to these standards is going to somehow ensure their safety. Regarding the term equivalency, I'm not sure how, short of scientific testing, we are going to be able to cover all the possibilities. One convention that is often used is to allow '2 gauges lighter' for stainless versus mild, i.e. 14 ga mild=16 ga stainless. Once we account for the more recent improvements in armoring, do we now say that hardened 1050 = hardened 4130? From an armorer's standpoint I can point out that it will depend on the heat treatment process. Now, how does heat treated compare to mild? (From personal experience I'll take an hardened .040 4130 breastplate over 14 ga mild steel any day).
So, rather than try to cover every possibility, we are setting out a basic standards that are based upon over 20 years of 'modern' jousting. Folks have to decide for themselves, with the input of informed marshals, what is equivalent. An additional filter will be the tournament organizer, since they are the ones stepping up and providing a field.
This is consistent with our admonishing every rider that they are ultimately responsible for themselves. If someone is either not comfortable with their armour, or the armour of their opponent, they shouldn't rely on a marshal to make a determination for them. Until they are comfortable with the equipment being used, they should forgo jousting. (And, the same should be said for being comfortable with your opponent's training as well)
Regards,
Dave/Alexis

p.s. Lloyd feel free to email me with any questions you have. Either here or directly at wiselaw@comcast.net

[Leo Medii]

I'll weigh in briefly.

I rely upon my body for income, and I have placed it at hazard in my work life. I have laid four concussions upon my frame totally not related to fighting for fun, but no broken bones. That said: I would like no more concussions, and broken bones or joint damage would negatively impact my earning potential and quality of life because at 38 you just don't heal as well as you once did when you could conquer the world. I've found that Irish luck means that sometimes you can be tossed over a fence in harness and get back up, but it's a dice roll I prefer to avoid.

I would prefer to joust and sport with gentlemen who have something to lose as I do, who bedress themselves safely, conduct themselves safely, and who require the utmost chivalry from their fellow riders. By chivalry in this case, and in this topic of discussing safety, practices, and the discussion over lances, I mean being able to sustain the practice of jousting and live outside of jousting. Anyone who pursues an activity that aggressively ablates their quality of life is a fool. There, I said it. They may be all kinds of tough, they may be all kinds of careless, whatever, but bottom line I in my case have a duty, a wife, and a daughter. Whatever comes after those duties, I get to have for myself. Jousting and horseback chivalric sport falls into that "nice to have" category no matter how much I feel it's a calling of my spirit.

I take it seriously when folks like Lloyd and Jason weigh in and say that the glories of their youth are erstwhile memories that do not pay as well with the passage of time.
As regards the proposed armor standards, I would be curious about #7, regarding chin straps. Sometimes, a helmet is safer flying from the head than being tied to it. There are some aspects of jousting that do not merit direct translation from the rules of the list.

The equivalencies will require definition, as regards to thickness and strength of materials required.

Best,

John

Well said John, and so, so true.

When I was young, and less seasoned in wisdom, I was a brash and bold child, who was filled with ego and quite willing to prove my daring. 9 years of taking falls off horses every weekend, not to mention the actual unhorsings (that are VERY common in what we did due to the skill and power of the riders of my day) have taken their toll. Like John, I am 39 and not quite so able to take such abuse. Also, the toll of those years was harsh. Like Lloyd can say with certianty I bet is the back and neck pain, the headaches and such are not worth the fleeting ego glory of those days.
In my opinion of course.

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

...the back and neck pain, the headaches and such are not worth the fleeting ego glory of those days.

Well now, don't get carried away.
Wasn't it worth all the nookie?

[Leo Medii]

...the back and neck pain, the headaches and such are not worth the fleeting ego glory of those days.

Well now, don't get carried away.
Wasn't it worth all the nookie?

I've been together with the same lady now as I was then.

Never did get into the jouster groupie scene. Had many women try, just wasn't interested in anyone else.

[Joust Junkie]

Trystan of Anglesea spake thusly:

Wasn't it worth all the nookie?

Oh, geez, not Joust Groupies!!!

And here I though all you tough guy heavy armour jouster dudes out there were doing it for the glory, fame and adrenaline rush when all along it was just a grandiose plot to bed women?

Sheesh.

~ariadne (who wonders if the same strategy would work on men if the WOMEN were the ones doing the jousting?)

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

~ariadne (who wonders if the same strategy would work on men if the WOMEN were the ones doing the jousting?)

Yes it does.
(i'm in a relationship with a female jouster - the boys just lerve her)

[Leo Medii]

Men don't seem to need a reason, only a place?

[Joust Junkie]

Having "squired" for a few of you at tournaments in the past, I can say from experience that there is nothing less attractive than a guy who has just spent an hour on a horse in a full armor at a Renn Faire or other tourney.

He is stinky-stinky, icky, sticky, sweaty, yucky gross. Eeeeuw!

His gambeson probably hasn't been washed in MONTHS if he's touring with a troupe. His armour probably has a layer of gook plastered in side it from said icky gambeson. So between his natural body odour and that of the horse, I have to imagine these jouster groupies probably were not only deficient in their, err, selection criteria but also can't smell well.

To bring this back on topic, Sir Alexis's 'padding' requirements for SCA Balsa Jousting appear to be in line with IJA. But how I'm gonna survive in 90-degree (F) heat in southern California wearing my heavy gambeson and full armour, I'm not sure. Probably, I'll have to do the same thing I do when I show in my "Saddleseat" monkey suit...cold, wet t-shirt underneath everything, dress fast, do the class, then strip as soon as I get out of the arena and melt into a puddle in a chair with a cold drink in my hand! LOL

ariadne