Balsa jousting in the SCA

For those of us who wish to talk about the many styles and facets of recreating Medieval armed combat.
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Eule
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Post by Eule »

Rittmeister Frye wrote:On the other hand, the Indian-made abortions are a horror to both man and horse, with a STEEL framework, rather than the proper wooden tree!


Lucky has a pretty normal back and my "Indian Made Abortion" (I like that!) bridges him to the tune of about 3"-4" and the area where it does sit on him is about 2"-3" in diameter.

Not only that: the gullet hits his spine; no matter how tight the girth it rotates around his body when you mount up; and the seat is too small for even my little butt. I'm not sure what this thing is supposed to fit....although, I haven't tried to put it on my llama yet...

...hmmm.....there's an idea...

Yea...torture.
Eule/Steve
Unus sed Leo
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Jeffrey Hedgecock
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Post by Jeffrey Hedgecock »

Polish your armour and sharpen your lances. I'm coming to Texas on Wednesday to teach how to ride straight and strike true.

Leeds finishes tomorrow. A quick drink at the Palace then I hop in the car for the drive back to Heathrow. Board a plane at 8 Tuesday morning, then on to Texas for my 2-day clinic in Austin, then the Lysts at Castleton tournament on the weekend.

Time to break more wood.

J
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Black Swan Designs
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Post by Black Swan Designs »

And I'm holding up my end here! The weather was glorious, so we had some impromptu training this afternoon. Kyle has the cut and thrust down, and is chopping cabbages with frightening accuracy. Joel is doing fantastically, and had his first go at weapons handling, knocking targets off a post.

We're going to have some fierce local competitors for the Tournament of the Phoenix!! 8)

Gwen
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Lloyd
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Post by Lloyd »

Oh yeah!! I am going to be back in the saddle again!!! :twisted: :twisted:

June 19 - Beaver Dam Wisconsin!
Cheers,

Lloyd Clark
RETIRED World Champion Professional Jouster
Facebook Page - feel free to LIKE!

Watching my Wife and Daughter skate or my daughter throw the discus is a 1000 times more satisfying than winning any joust....
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Sir Alexis
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Post by Sir Alexis »

Just a quick note to say thanks to everyone who made it out for the jousting training session put together by Steve/Eule last week, and all the folks who made it out and helped with the Lysts of Castleton event in Austin.

Overall we saw lots of progress for some folks. Some were getting their first taste of jousting while others were able to hone their skills a bit more.

More details after I finish getting the trailer unloaded :)
Regards,
Dave/Alexis
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Post by ^ »

Lloyd wrote:Oh yeah!! I am going to be back in the saddle again!!! :twisted: :twisted:

June 19 - Beaver Dam Wisconsin!


Please remind us when it gets closer as I'll but up in that area that.
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Sir Alexis
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Post by Sir Alexis »

So, one question came up at Lysts and I was hoping to get some input from those who have organized jousting tournaments before. Is there any consensus on how to handle the scoring when the scoring opportunities are uneven? In the ideal case, the riders will each have the same number of passes against their opponents, say a round robin style where everyone jousts against everyone else. What happens when a rider retires and some have jousted against them and some haven't?
Depending on how far into the competition someone goes before they retire for the day, different opponents will have very different scoring opportunities. Is there a preference not to count points accrued against someone that not everyone got to joust against? Or, do you average the points earned against the number of scoring opportunities? Or, is there some 'fairer' way of handling it? Are there organizational preferences for the IJA or IJL?
Feedback is appreciated, looking forward to hearing from folks.
Regards,
Dave/Alexis
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Lloyd
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Post by Lloyd »

When I ran the Sword of Valour jousts in 07 we scored individual jousts (i.e. the winner of the joust recieved 5 points, 3 points for a tie, and 0 for a loss). We had it set up as Tenans v Venans (with 2 Tenans taking on 6 venans - each facing 3 per round), but make sure that you have some type of scoring "board" or flags (ala A Knight's Tale) so that the spectators have an idea on how much each jouster is scoring and who one each individual joust. The points from each round were totaled for the overall score. It was a very close competition decided by a single broken lance.

But it can be run with everyone getting a chance to joust everyone else (we did that in the Sonora International Jousting Championships, where total points per pass were added up - 10 for an unhorsing, 5 for a solid lance break, 3 for breaking just the balsa tip). This is pretty confusing for spectators as someone may joust brilliantly a few times (and not so at other times) and lose. It is very hard to keep the spectators (hell, even the jousters) up-to-date on current scoring.

I have competed in round robins - at the Dragon's Lair World Championships in 04, there were 5 rounds of jousting (over 3 days), each was run as a round robin with a winner each round. Placings were given set points (10 for 1st, 8 for 2nd, etc.) for each round and each competitor received a total at the end of the tournament to determine placings.

You definitely should have a system for deciding ties - either a one-on-one joust off or the competitor who had the most broken lances, etc.

The biggest thing, in my opinion, is to keep the scoring simple so that everyone, spectator, competitor, groundcrew, and judges alike know what the current scoring is, who is in the lead, and how many points a person may need to catch up.
Cheers,

Lloyd Clark
RETIRED World Champion Professional Jouster
Facebook Page - feel free to LIKE!

Watching my Wife and Daughter skate or my daughter throw the discus is a 1000 times more satisfying than winning any joust....
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Sir Alexis
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Post by Sir Alexis »

Thanks for the info Lloyd, just trying to figure out how important it is to make sure everyone has the same number of passes so they have the same number of opportunities to score points. In the case of someone retiring (or more likely, needing to retire due the horse reaching it's limit), is there a preferred way to even out the scoring opportunities? Otherwise, it will always favor those who simply get more runs in, unless I'm missing something.
Up until now it hasn't been much of an issue, since we're pretty easy going locally. We have tried not give folks incentive to make runs when their horses are no longer having fun, however, since we are starting to have more interaction with other organizations, I'm curious how it is handled elsewhere.
Regards,
Dave/Alexis
Fred Piraux
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Post by Fred Piraux »

Hi Dave !

First congratulations for running a safe event. If fairness of number of passes is your only concern it is already very satisfying.

Second congratulations again for being upfront with your fairness concerns showing great respect for the sport, the participants and the community.

Our usual way to in Belgium and France...
we stopped long time computing "averages" and "potential passes estimates".
Not that this was much of a concern to the competitors, it did not fit my objective side : I had witnessed no action and there for was not incline to give or deduct points for something that had not happened. :lol:

In addition, we tried to find a solution that could work with any scoring system and would not be affected by points.

The way we solve scores here :
- We make everything happen as scheduled. (This can happen once in a while ! :P )

or

- If a competitor retires we remove scores from all his passes and from competitors against him. We keep his penalties up if any, for educational purposes. The IJL protocol also award points for the competitor ending last on a score sheet to reward his efforts, patience and motivation.

- If the format or competitor removal from the start produces a different number of passes we can inform competitors that we will removes the last, for last... scores until we have an even number of scores for all.
If 1 competitors runs 2 passes less than others, we removes the last two scores.


Cheers,
Fred
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Sir Alexis
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Post by Sir Alexis »

Hi Fred,
Thanks for the kind words. Overall, we have been fortunate in that as a group, our riders have done a good job prioritizing safe rides, rather than points. Of course, we have a number of folks who would benefit from more practice (myself included :) ), but our riders are working to improve their skills.
We've been discussing some of the different ways of handling the runs. For myself, I would prefer that we not discount runs that were made by someone, since there is no better way to measure how someone did on a given day than to look at the results of the passes they did actually make, for better or worse. The problem arises in that I don't think we have ever had a true 'round robin' yet, where every rider was able to ride against every opponent. I don't have a problem with that, since we are encouraging folks not to push their horses past the point they are 'done', but it does create a disparity in opportunity to accrue points.
One notion we have had is to allow the person who has had an opponent retire make a run against one of the remaining riders acting as a bye. The person who had to make up the run would get whatever points they gain from their run, the person doing the bye run wouldn't add to their total, since they have already had their opportunity to accrue points with their first passes against their opponents. (Also means the chance of the bye rider to accrue points occurred when their horse was fresher).
Another alternative is to simply average out the total points accrued by the number of passes made.
Regarding your method, if I understand it correctly, you are saying that you eliminate the 'extra' passes that some folks have acquired until the number of passes reach the lowest common denominator?
I can see where that works, although it still will be a bit of a luck of the draw when selecting which runs count and which ones don't.
Always interested in seeing how folks handle things :)

Regards,
Dave/Alexis

p.s. For myself, I prefer the first option, since it leads to more passes :)

p.p.s. Most of the credit this year goes to Steve/Eule, he took point on this year's event (of course, credit has to go to his lovely wife Dawn for being the behind the scene work force :) ). That said, we always have lots of folks who pitch in to make things work :)
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Jonny Deuteronomy
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Post by Jonny Deuteronomy »

Sir Alexis wrote:So, one question came up at Lysts and I was hoping to get some input from those who have organized jousting tournaments before. Is there any consensus on how to handle the scoring when the scoring opportunities are uneven?

In the FreeLancer:Roy Cox-run tournaments I have been in, if a rider drops out of a round or out of the tournament, either alternate riders or volunteers ride agains the dropout's opponents in each round so that each rider may complete the same number of passes.
It's all just goobdooberous fripdippery now.
Fred Piraux
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Post by Fred Piraux »

Sir Alexis wrote:Regarding your method, if I understand it correctly, you are saying that you eliminate the 'extra' passes that some folks have acquired until the number of passes reach the lowest common denominator?
I can see where that works, although it still will be a bit of a luck of the draw when selecting which runs count and which ones don't.


"Lowest common denominator number of passes" would read as the closer name indeed.
We do not chose wich passe is removed from the sheet.
It is automatically the last one.
Everyone has a first, second... fifth. We keep them and remove the sixth that some might not have run because of a retirement.

It's consistent with your idea of "most passes" as all participants can run at everyone still in the competition... only scores will be scraped.

We don't run "bye passes" anymore because it feels unfair for the remaining horses who because they rode bravely you end up asking for more... I know I hate when my boss does that to me at work, why would my horse enjoy ! :P It adds to stress, fatigue and risks for good horses.

Just A way to do it, not THE way of course !!!

Cheers,
Fred
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Sir Alexis
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Post by Sir Alexis »

Thanks for the clarification. Just wondering out loud, or at the keyboard at least, if there is a cutoff. I.e. if most folks got say four runs in, but one rider only got one in, then I would presume you wouldn't want to take everyone down to one, since it was only the one rider who was that different than the rest of the riders.
Hope folks indulge my speculation a bit, part of my job is finding ways around the rules ;) In this case though, just trying to think through the options so that nobody benefits from trying to get around them :)
Regards,
Dave/Alexis
Fred Piraux
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Post by Fred Piraux »

Sir Alexis wrote:I.e. if most folks got say four runs in, but one rider only got one in, then I would presume you wouldn't want to take everyone down to one, since it was only the one rider who was that different than the rest of the riders.


Well... back to "rule #2" ! :lol:
Easier to have his 1 passe removed than bug all others !

The way we solve scores here :
- We make everything happen as scheduled. (This can happen once in a while ! )

- If a competitor retires we remove scores from all his passes and from competitors against him. We keep his penalties up if any, for educational purposes. The IJL protocol also award points for the competitor ending last on a score sheet to reward his efforts, patience and motivation.

- If the format or competitor removal from the start produces a different number of passes we can inform competitors that we will removes the last, for last... scores until we have an even number of scores for all.
If 1 competitors runs 2 passes less than others, we removes the last two scores.


Now allow me to be a bit blunt :
if the retiring after 1 passe sort of extends to more riders...
Organizer should then reconsider his tournament format and selection process for mounts and riders as there is not much for a competition in this case. Would probably be best to run a training session instead. :roll:

I fully understand that it needs to get started some place and that unexpected "disapointing" stuff will happen. Learning from is the guideline ! :)
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Sir Alexis
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Post by Sir Alexis »

Hi all, just a quick note to touch base. With all the discussion we had when this thread kicked off, I would like to know who has actually gotten some balsa jousting in this last year. If you've had events or practices with balsa, please drop me a note and let me know how it has gone, any issues, how many folks you had participate, etc.
Thanks in advance, I look forward to hearing from everyone :)
Regards,
Dave/Alexis
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Dougale MacAlestyr
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Post by Dougale MacAlestyr »

Have there been any plans for this years Gulfwars? I'm actually able to make it this year and would love to assist/learn/gain whatever knowledge I can.

Thanks.
Dougale MacAlestyr
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Id rather not have the award at all than have it and doubt my worth.
Halvgrimr
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Sir Alexis
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Post by Sir Alexis »

There are plans for balsa jousting at Gulf Wars this year. I'll post the schedule as soon as it is finalized.
Regards,
Alexis/Dave
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Dougale MacAlestyr
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Post by Dougale MacAlestyr »

Fantastic!

Thank you Sir.
Dougale MacAlestyr
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Id rather not have the award at all than have it and doubt my worth.
Halvgrimr
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