Balsa jousting in the SCA

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

:?: What means 'pulling a Bono?'

I think he is referring to Sunny Bono but I don't get it.

Sunny Bono died after eating a tree at high speed up whilst on a black diamond run at Heavenly Ski Resort in Lake Tahoe, it was believed at the time that had he worn a helmet he would have lived. From this the term "Pulling a Bono" was born amongst the extreme sports community, whom consider Jousting to be a said sport. I have a hard time defining it but I do know it when I see it. Suffice it to say it means being killed in a way that MIGHT have been prevented via some extra forseable step while doing any dangerous sports thing. IE dying whilst free soloing a 5.9c rock route you've done many times, being killed in an avalanche while skiing the back country, dying while base jumping, etc.

As this was local to me (30 mi away) it's a bit more relevant, in fact many non-sports types living 'round here are familiar with the term. I've also heard folks use it who know it's meaning but not who Sunny Bono was.

Does this help?

-Ivan

[Eule]

And another 'oh yeah'- we're just back from a Caid equestrian practice where Jeff was authorized to compete in SCA horse stuff. I guess they thought he was safe enough. So guys (you know who you are), he has his card!! Yeah!!

Gwen

Be still my beating heart!

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

It's actually "Sonny" Bono.

Here are some ramblings from my currently addled brain...

I think there's little chance of dying while jousting with breaking tips, unless a helm sight is oversized, it's inadequately harnessed or padded, or if a rider falls on his head and breaks his neck. The last one is possible in any equestrian sport viz Christopher Reeve. It's also possible in any sport where you're moving fast or off the ground. It's not unique to jousting.

The helm's sight size is an issue because wood can enter. SCA sight size won't be safe, even for plate visors-- 3/4" sights, unless configured as with a frogmouth (where the lower edge protrudes forward of the upper edge), will allow wood to enter somewhat easily. Sights should be smaller than 1/2" ideally. Klappvisier Bascinets with large SCA reg sights are an example of helms that would be pretty unsafe for jousting. Also great helms would be rather worrying if the sights were larger than about 3/8".

There has been one death from jousting with balsa, in England about 2 years ago, as part of a TV shoot. It occurred because the chap had both inadequate gear and inadequate training. He wasn't really a jouster. Also, the folks organizing the shoot didn't have the expertise to know whether or not the gear was safe. He took wood in the eye socket and died a couple of days later.

The guys who joust with the aim to unhorse have the most problems it seems. They don't appear to have adequately fitting or harnessed armour, so when they come off they tend to regularly get knocked out, concussed, or both. I expect it's because they're big guys wearing inordinately heavy armour, with inadequately padded helmets and no support for their neck. This comes down to deficiencies in the armour which could be corrected if it was built properly. They are using inadequate gear for the job they're doing. Rule number one in jousting to unhorse: support your head because you're gonna land on it. I don't see that precaution observed by the "full contact" crew. Historically, if jousting to unhorse, a "bolted down" helmet is used. That said, luckily no one has died yet in that scene, though I'm astonished that no one has. They have, however seen many hand, arm, wrist and shoulder injuries, primarily from lance recoil because proper arrets, lances, vamplates, etc aren't used.

Luckily with balsa, even pretty hard balsa, it takes an alignment of the planets to unhorse someone unless the target rides poorly. A decent rider can take a hefty socket hit and stay on. Unhorsing someone is very difficult and the person doing the unhorsing stands as much chance of unhorsing themselves from the recoil as they stand of unhorsing the other rider.

Enough ramblings, sorry for the tirade. Tired now. Bed calling.

Oh, Jason, if you want an armour critique, PM me. Seems like you're cool for SCA and I don't wanna derail this thread.

[Sir Alexis]

Glad to see that we're kicking around some of the logistics of jousting. From having observed various jousting activities and groups over the last few years I've often seen conflict come up when there is a difference in reasons for jousting. Folks have different goals and perspectives, sometimes it is for historical re-enactment, sometimes as extreme sport, sometimes it's just a job on the ren-faire circuit. Often those differences in priority will overshadow what should be the number one concern, safety.
Ideally everyone participating in jousting would wear high quality historically accurate harness, properly fitted to them, after proper training, on properly trained horses. All this would be wrapped up in a beautifully presented tournament setting with banners flying and a legion of wonderfully dressed and trained ground crew, all to the delight of an appreciative gallery.
Now the reality is that it is very tough to get all the above pieces in place due to time, money and proximity. It makes sense to me to try to determine what we have to have versus what we want to have.
As we are drafting the standards for balsa jousting in the SCA, keep in mind these are the minimums that folks are going to be required to do, or to have in way of gear, to be allowed to participate. Historically, some folks won't go beyond minimums. However, we have seen that there are certainly a number of folks who will continue to elevate their game as they see better quality kit and get better training. What I would anticipate happening is that the quality of presentation will grow organically as folks see the better presentations. This will often be on a tournament by tournament basis, i.e. folks come out one year, see the gear and presentation, then go home and pound metal, sew and train to get ready for next year's tournament. Combine that with educating more of the armorers out there to the specific needs of jousters and that will improve the availability of quality armor.
So, that brings us to the issue of drafting the regs for balsa jousting. The way the SCA works, for those not familiar with it, is that you have an equestrian handbook http://sca.org/officers//equestrian/pdf/equestrian_handbook.pdf that sets out a framework for reporting, establishes a marshal structure, specifies authorizations and sets out equipment standards. To ride at SCA events requires an authorization conducted by an authorizing marshals. The SCA has different levels of authorization including a general rider authorization, a separate authorization for games (riding with weapons and targeting), special authorizations for foam jousting and mounted archery, and now an experimental authorization for balsa jousting.
As others have noted, there is no such thing as 'safe' jousting, since it will always carry a risk, the question is how can we mitigate those risks by mandating minimum standards. When it comes to equipment, some things are fairly straightforward, such as visor widths. The 15mm used in the IJA seems like a good working number. As for the rest of the harness, the difficulty is that the protective value of armor is a function of fit as well as materials used. That means we can define chest protection as 14 ga. mild steel or equivalent, but that won't mean that it is 'good' armor. As a group we can't 'guarantee safety' with any set of armor standards, so we have to balance out our desire to see minimums based on what was used historically (and what we have a track record for with modern jousting) against holding each rider responsible for their own kit.
If folks have suggestions for these minimums, offer them up
Meanwhile, I'm continuing to try to identify folks out there that we can have as resources for people interested in jousting who can look at someone's armor and give them advice on how to improve it for jousting. At the same time, I'm trying to get an idea of where folks are located at so that we can get them together and kick this discussion around in person, since it is a lot easier to understand the differences in armor, as well as jousting techniques, in person rather than discussing it on a forum.
As a last note before I get to some paying work is that I'm glad folks are keeping a positive attitude as we try to get the details worked out
Regards,
Dave/Alexis

[Sean Powell]

Now the reality is that it is very tough to get all the above pieces in place due to time, money and proximity. It makes sense to me to try to determine what we have to have versus what we want to have.
As we are drafting the standards for balsa jousting in the SCA, keep in mind these are the minimums that folks are going to be required to do, or to have in way of gear, to be allowed to participate.

(snip)

As others have noted, there is no such thing as 'safe' jousting, since it will always carry a risk, the question is how can we mitigate those risks by mandating minimum standards. When it comes to equipment, some things are fairly straightforward, such as visor widths. The 15mm used in the IJA seems like a good working number. As for the rest of the harness, the difficulty is that the protective value of armor is a function of fit as well as materials used. That means we can define chest protection as 14 ga. mild steel or equivalent, but that won't mean that it is 'good' armor. As a group we can't 'guarantee safety' with any set of armor standards, so we have to balance out our desire to see minimums based on what was used historically (and what we have a track record for with modern jousting) against holding each rider responsible for their own kit.
If folks have suggestions for these minimums, offer them up

(snip)

Regards,
Dave/Alexis

Sir Alexis,

On the issue of 'can't guarantee safety'. It is fair to say that there is no activity in this world short of meditating in a fall-out shelter in the bottom of Norad that is guarentied to be safe... and even then there is a chance the air pumps will shut down and you will suffocate.

I strongly recomend doing a formal risk analysis on the process. Rate every risk on a 1-5 level for both severity where 1 is a bruise, 5 is death, didmemberment or permanant injury (Christopher Reeve style) and 1-5 on occurance (1 is less then 1:10,000 and 5 is > 1:10) (go for passes and not per hour of jousting). Include everything you can possibly think of including 'bruise and/or broken foot bones from horse kicking/stomping the handler.' or other activities from just being around horses.

It should be possible looking at say a selection of IJA, IJL and ren-fair passes to assess number of bezel strikes, number of splinters through eye slots 1" eye slots, number of splinters through 15mm eye slots, number of falls, number of falls leading to concussions.

Once you have this list use it to identify those risks with the greatest probablity/severity combination. Mitigate what you can as well as you can... but there is no need to be stupid about it. There is always the chance of tripping over a curb and falling into traffic while walking to the event. The best you can do is reduce the occurance or the severity.

Mitigation can include things like authorizations as well as armor standards. I would assume that a rider competent enough to be authorized should be unhorsed less then 1 out of every 100 passes. Statistics like this can then be used to drive the authorization process.

It is also possible to find something that can not be mitigated. "Riders are cautioned that minimum armor requirements may not prevent injury from all scenarios. Riders are strongly encouraged to go beyond the minimums with narrower eye-slots or additional eye protection, thicker padding, stronger armor or better fitting gear. Riders recognize that jousting is a potentially injurs sport and should be in good health before particpating." This last is a biggie. You probably don't want hemopheliacs or pregnant people or people with heart conditions jousting. You should publish verbage to remind the rider that the responsibility is theirs. It's not like people with these conditions are always smart enough to avoid rollercoasters so now there are signs.

Finally, someone will always propose something stupid like a balsa splinter flying into the crowd to stab some one. If you have done a formal risk/occurance/outcome analysis you can look at them and say "It was considered. The crowd is kept at a distance where less then 1 in 10,000 passes will result in a splinter traveling that far. If you feel this is still too unsafe, you are welcome to not stand in the crowd and watch."

Too many people don't undertand that a remote risk of harm can be considered acceptable, it's the frequent risk of harm that is a problem.

If you want advice or assistance on doing something like this, I will see if I can help.

Best of luck!
Sean

[Gorm]

"Finally, someone will always propose something stupid like a balsa splinter flying into the crowd to stab some one. If you have done a formal risk/occurance/outcome analysis you can look at them and say "It was considered. The crowd is kept at a distance where less then 1 in 10,000 passes will result in a splinter traveling that far. If you feel this is still too unsafe, you are welcome to not stand in the crowd and watch." "

UNfortunately, in the SCA, you will get folks who, because this isn't "beating each other up with rattan sticks", they will say "1 in 10,000? Not safe enough"

It's one of the things starting to really torque me off about the group.

[Leo Medii]

UNfortunately, in the SCA, you will get folks who, because this isn't "beating each other up with rattan sticks", they will say "1 in 10,000? Not safe enough"

This.

[Sir Alexis]

Hey Sean, don't make me dust off the engineering degree along with the law degree and expect me to get too formal on the risk analysis, it will keep me from getting saddle time and pounding metal
Seriously, I understand what you're saying and we do try to account for the variables. The biggest issue is data. Although there has been jousting going on in various venues for quite awhile now, it is my understanding that the raw data hasn't been collected and/or made available for analysis. While we are aware of the jouster who took the splinter in the eye, I don't know of any of the jousting groups, ren faires, various tournament companies, IJA, IJL, AJA, etc. that have tracked their injuries as a function of the number of passes. Not to mention all the other details such as ascribing a reason for any injuries, i.e. poorly fitted armour, bad footing, equipment malfunction, lack of training, etc. If the data is out there, I'll be happy to compile it and analyze it
Until that data is either presented, or can be collected, I am hoping that we can kick the topic around a bit to at least collect anecdotal information to address the risks that are easily identifiable.
Regards,
Dave/Alexis

p.s. while I did study formal risk analysis, it was in the context of nuclear engineering. Hey, maybe I could figure out the half-life of a balsa lance....

[Saritor]

It's one of the things starting to really torque me off about the group.

Only starting to? Slacker.

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

Hmmm on safety.. lemme see.

Most whiny safety people in the SCA will tell me that medium to light contact Tae Kwon Do with pad's is safer than Heavy Fighting, but I beg to differ:

TKD for 7 yrs: 2 KO's (why am I on the floor?), 1 almost broken skin, 3 sprained ankles, 1 dislocated toe, many pulled muscles, bruises, and contusions. Still was fun.

SCA fighting for 9 yrs: 1 temp damaged nerve cluster, 1 semi/perm damaged nerve, 1 temp damaged tendon, 1 mild concussion, many bruises and welts. Much fun as well.

Ask the safety whiners if they think Skiing is safe or Trad Climbing. If you go skiing at any resort in Tahoe on the back of your lift pass will be a bit that you signed saying "Gravity is out to get me and I'm OK with that". Heck 2 famous climbers, Micha Dash and Jonny Copp were killed in China this year on the way TO a climb by an avalanche. SCA wise we had 2 guy's die due to indirect fighting causes, one had a heart condition he didn't tell the marshals of and died at Estrella, the other died after winning finals of a heart attack after sitting down with helm off.

We all do the Fun/Danger Equation (F-D=y or n). Some sit at home wrapped in layers of foam cringing in fear. Others Free Solo El Cap wearing nothing but a chalk bag, shoes, and shorts. Others joust each other wearing 50 lbs of gear on horseback at 30 mi an hour. Some, like that guy at Estrella, know that death is near and going to get them soon no matter what. In their equation the 'F' is big, the 'd' is small and the 'n' almost non-existent.

Anyway, thanks Jeffery and Sir Alexis for helping.

TTFN

-Ivan

[Sean Powell]

Hey Sean, don't make me dust off the engineering degree along with the law degree and expect me to get too formal on the risk analysis, it will keep me from getting saddle time and pounding metal
Seriously, I understand what you're saying and we do try to account for the variables. The biggest issue is data. Although there has been jousting going on in various venues for quite awhile now, it is my understanding that the raw data hasn't been collected and/or made available for analysis. While we are aware of the jouster who took the splinter in the eye, I don't know of any of the jousting groups, ren faires, various tournament companies, IJA, IJL, AJA, etc. that have tracked their injuries as a function of the number of passes. Not to mention all the other details such as ascribing a reason for any injuries, i.e. poorly fitted armour, bad footing, equipment malfunction, lack of training, etc. If the data is out there, I'll be happy to compile it and analyze it
Until that data is either presented, or can be collected, I am hoping that we can kick the topic around a bit to at least collect anecdotal information to address the risks that are easily identifiable.
Regards,
Dave/Alexis

p.s. while I did study formal risk analysis, it was in the context of nuclear engineering. Hey, maybe I could figure out the half-life of a balsa lance....

Oh Thank GOD you understand. So many people without a technical degree just don't get it.

The data is going to have to be compiled. What's worse is compiling the records of non-injurus accounts. Presume this: Someone is injuried and for whatever reason is involved in a law-suit. A lawyer pays an intern to sort through all of the jousting video on you-tube and count the number of individually identifiable rousting passes, the number of people unhorsed and the number of unhorsed people who land on their head. Said lawyer presents this data to a judge and jury. While we KNOW that not every pass is recorded and that video gets posted of the spectacular more then the normal... it's a bear to prove this in court.

I think I would start just the same way, videos. Sort through what you can and clasify them by style but simply keep track of the total and any injuries or injury potential like being unhorsed. I bet you can find 1000 distinct passes and count the number of times people are unhorsed. It may become justification for NOT using solid lances. There are times when you write your risk analysis notibly stupid so you can show how measures that are already in effect improve safety. If 25 in 500 passes with closet poles results in an unhorsed opponent and 1 in 500 passes with balsa result in an unhorsed opponent then the risk of injury from falling is potentially mitigated by the use of balsa lances... and you have all of the documentation you need.

Alternatly if you can get a head-count of the number participants at a few IJA or IJL jousts and an average number of passes and demonstrate that there were no reported medical evacuations ten you can make some bold asertations that contact jousting has no risks with severity of 4-5 that occur more often then 1 in X passes.

These numbers are all aproximations (or SWAG = Scientific wild ass guess) but they are a foundation until you start gathering your own data. For the first few years of SCA balsa jousting it would be beneficial to compile your own data. This way if any brass-hat with more hot-air then brains tries to force a personal agenda it can be you talking with the insurance provider to decide if something is safe or not.

I wish you luck. The BOD for the SCA isn't stupid and isn't inept. It serves the function of keeping the SCA running in some form into the future. That quite frequently means saying no to something new. The best way I have found to keep people from saying no is to anticipate the questions and present the data.

It's gonna be a chalenge but a noble and worth one. I hope you succeed
Sean

[Sean Powell]

UNfortunately, in the SCA, you will get folks who, because this isn't "beating each other up with rattan sticks", they will say "1 in 10,000? Not safe enough"

This.

Someone once told me that a 'one in a million shot' probably happens every week in the SCA. That's why you don't analize heavy combat on a per swing or even per fight basis but instead on a perm man-hour of combat. If 2000 people fight for 5 hours thats 10,000 man-hours. We could expect a 1:10,000 incident every Pennsic. We need 'five nines' or 99.999% unlikely which is 1:100,000

What peaves me off is people who apply different standards towards the parts of the game they like vs the parts they dislike for some reason. I'm hoping to avoid that here by approacting it profesionally and non-emotionally. Ancedotal evidence is great until person A says they done it 100 times and never been hurt while person B says they were marshal in charge N times and saw Y failures. Neither can coroberate the others data because the data does not agree and the data was not collected in an unbiased manner.

Sean

[Sir Alexis]

I'm not counting on the BoD to be stupid, in fact just the opposite. The fact that there are risks is understood by everyone. The only question is whether the activity presents an unacceptable level of risk. The reason that the balsa experiment is coming up now is that by virtue of having the foam lances in use for several years now, we have a body of experience within the SCA to consider the risks of jousting as practiced in the SCA. While many decried the use of such obviously non-historic lances, the simple fact is the use of our so called 'safe and sane' lances has gotten folks, including the BoD, comfortable with the idea of jousting, something that was completely off the table for the SCA for the first 40+ years of it's existence. Now that folks realize the jousting doesn't have to equate to wholesale slaughter, the next challenge is to educate them to the difference between the foam lances, with their large margin of error, and balsa lances which are much less forgiving.
So, that is why we are discussing the matter now on forums like this one, so that folks will understand and appreciate the need for quality gear and training if they wish to participate in balsa jousting in the SCA. There are some folks who consider themselves jousters based on experience with the foam lances who can't, or won't, take the appropriate steps to get themselves up to speed to account for the differences. That is where our marshals will have to say 'nope, you're not ready to play yet'. That is where the folks running the tournaments will have to exercise the same discretion that tournament organizers for the IJA or IJL have used to weed out those who don't appreciate the risks.
As much as the SCA is accustomed to having a low threshold for participation, equestrian has always been more difficult to participate in due to the logistics of horses. Training, maintaining and hauling three horses for mounted combat and jousting on a regular basis, I'm painfully aware of how time consuming and expensive they are, not to mention being busy mucking stalls and eating cold dinners at Gulf Wars while everyone else is already out partying (Hey, where did those damn squires run off to....?). So, this activity will be even tougher to participate in given the necessity of quality armor and training. Realistically, most folks aren't going to 'get there' due to the logistics. But, there are those who will take the time to get themselves up to speed who will experience one of the most classic elements of the middle ages. In doing so, they will be 'bringing to life' the very image that many people have of 'knights in shining armor.' So, that makes it worthwhile to work out the logistics of getting this approved as an activity within the SCA. Based on having gotten both the mounted combat approved and the foam jousting approved, I have a pretty good idea this might work
Regards,
Dave

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Knowing very little about jousting per se, I would make a suggestion that marshalls be picked out of a very selective group, with the ability to stand up to just about everyone, and stick by a judgement call. This would ideally be based off of the higher experience of the marshalls in actual balsa jousting, both outside (for right now) as well as inside the SCA. As much as we don't like marshalls (especially in heavy) to use the "uncomfortable" or "just doesn't feel right" about things, the risk factor is higher for people who are not up to par. I have seen the same thing in some of the YC marshalls (which are heavy fighters), who have to explain why, even though the parents (both non-fighters) followed the letter of the rules, their child isn't safe enough to participate. They are able to see something that is not covered explicitly in the rules, based off of their greater experience. Think of it like working with a really PO'ed customer in retail. You need to find a safe compromise that doesn't lower the standards.

[Sir Alexis]

That is exactly what we are doing right now, we're trying to find out who we have in the way of people who would make good marshals as we introduce this activity. What we are looking for at this stage are folks who ideally have experience at balsa jousting, familiarity with armor specifically used for jousting, familiarity with the SCA and the demeanor to be able to deal with folks, especially some folks who are used to being big fish in their own ponds (inside and outside the SCA). Guessing there won't be too many folks who have all the above requirements, so we will have to work with folks who may not experience in one area, but more experience in another. That's why I've asked folks who are interested to let me know
Regards,
Dave

[Sir Alexis]

Hi all,
Will be out of pocket next couple of days, but will be getting back to the folks who contacted me then. Meanwhile, I haven't seen any responses on where folks are getting their balsa tips from. I know the weather isn't cooperating for most folks right now, but we're looking to demo the activity at Gulf Wars, if not sooner, so I need to order some supplies up if folks have recommendations. Thanks in advance.
Dave/Alexis

[Sean Powell]

Hi all,
I haven't seen any responses on where folks are getting their balsa tips from.
Dave/Alexis

You might try here not surprisingly. Only place I know of.

http://historicenterprises.biz/lance-ti ... th=105_156

[Rittmeister Frye]

This move is just about the best thing that has happened in the SCA since it was founded, in my humble opinion. "Jousting" is what the average person imagines when they think of what a Tournament is, or what Chivalry is, and it's wonderful that even a boffer form of it is now commonplace in the SCA. That the march of time is bringing Balsa Jousting to the fore is just one more grand occurance, and it's definitely about time.

I for one urge those who are making the rules to resist the demands to "Dumb Down" the armour requirements so that "everyone" can play. If folks want to play and can't come up with the scratch for a decent suit of armour, they can play with the foam. It's got the same basics, and requires some training for the horses and riders to get it right so there should be no shame in it at all. But when you're trying to break wooden lances on one another's shoulders, it's a good idea to demand very high standards of armour.

As has been noted before, both here and in other discussions, that there is no need to reinvent the wheel, either in regards to armour standards, or to the armour used itself. The old guys knew a thing or two about what steel could and should do, how to make it glance the point away from the vitals, and how to make the joust look cool without killing each other in the process. To make it more accessible by making the armour standards less rigourous would be such a huge mistake as to be unfathomable.

I'm very glad to hear that sallets and separate bevors (as opposed to the proto-closehelms where they are riveted to form a single unit) are to be disqualified. All the BoD would need would be to see a photo of Arne Coets losing his helmet in a joust to squash things ASAP. (Frankly, it would make a certain degree of sense to in fact demand that only Great Biscinets, frog-mouthed helms, or armets and closehelms which rotate on the gorget be allowed at all when you get down to it. But that's probably extreme and for another discussion.)

What it boils down to is that Balsa Jousting is dangerous, no getting around it. Let the "but I can't afford that, can't I just use this?" crowd compete in substandard kit and you're destined to get a serious injury. Demand that everyone competing meet a high standard and you will prevent it, or at least have done everything in your power to do so.

Balsa is going to be THE top of the heap, and compared to the Combat of the Thirty, rather than ordinary Heavy Fighting. Indeed it is restricted by cost, but so what? There is the foam jousting for folks to use to get their feet wet. If they like it, and can hack the time and monetary investment in horses, armour and training for both man and horse, then they can move up. If they are happy with what they have cobbled together, then there is still a place for them to play, and play safely.

If it's going to be just more duct tape and plastic, it will be a non-starter from the get-go. The folks who already have invested in it will be less than enthused with the idea of facing someone who hasn't gone through much of the same training as they have. On the other hand, if it's exclusive, people will be more than willing to pay the price of admission. Balsa Jousting is the coolest game in town, and dumbing it down won't help anyone at all.

Just my opinion, though.

Cheers!

Gordon

[Sir Alexis]

Hi Gordon and all,
It certainly is not the intention to 'dumb down' the balsa jousting. As has been pointed out, the foam jousting is specifically intended to provide an opportunity for those interested in jousting to be able to do so with lower kit and training requirements. The discussion we are carrying on here is part of the process of figuring out how we intend to 'do' balsa jousting in the SCA. As we have kicked the ball around it appears that there as a number of things that folks are pretty much in agreement on, i.e. it is dangerous, 'proper' kit mitigates the risks, a higher standard for training is needed and there is a desire for a higher quality 'presentation'. While we agree on those things in theory, we still have to figure out how that works in practice. When a few people get together, it is relatively simple (not to be confused with cheap or easy) to agree on a 'vision' for what you want a tournament to look like. In the case of the SCA, we want to allow for as much variety of presentation as we can. While some folks look at the 15th century as the epitome of jousting, others prefer the classic look of the 14th century (Perhaps recalling Ivanhoe from their youth...?). Ultimately it will be up to tournament organizers to set the bar for what looks they want to present. Our assurance of quality will be through those running the tournaments being willing to say no to the person who's kit or training isn't up to snuff. This is already done with events such as the combat of thirty, so I don't think it will be difficult to establish this standard within the balsa jousting community.
To that end, I guess one more question to throw out for discussion is who is interested in getting a balsa jousting tournament going? I know we're set to have jousting at our Lysts of Castleton event in April, so who else wants to add jousting to their events?
Regards,
Alexis/Dave

[Raynold of Wharram]

We are definitely on board for it here in the Middle. We have had many of our more experienced people all but drop out of the SCA to pursue things in other venues that allow the balsa wood jousting and they would return for a tourney of this nature in a heartbeat, as that has already been conveyed to me. We have an event that we have done jousting out at in the past that is a good location to build this back into it. I think there could be interests in doing something in a different part of our kingdom more like the Lyst you all run, but that would be something in a bit in the coming together.

[Duane W]

I have set up my new farm for just such a thing. The new arena is 200' x 90' and a has sand footing. I plan on putting in a gallery this year. My local group is planning on holding an event on the third weekend of June at my place. (Tournaments Through the Ages) We are planning on MC and Foam Jousting. As the land owner and EqMiC I'd be more than happy to have balsa jousting at this event. (My armoury/workshop is on the other side of the farm, so fixing stuff is no problem) Since the farm is located just over an hour's drive from Pennsic, I'd also be more than happy to host a clinic there during the War if anyone is interested.

Take care,

Duane

[Baron Alejandro]

I for one urge those who are making the rules to resist the demands to "Dumb Down" the armour requirements so that "everyone" can play. If folks want to play and can't come up with the scratch for a decent suit of armour, they can play with the foam. It's got the same basics, and requires some training for the horses and riders to get it right so there should be no shame in it at all. But when you're trying to break wooden lances on one another's shoulders, it's a good idea to demand very high standards of armour.

I can't WAIT for jousting. It is the Final Frontier of medieval/renaissance combat. I have a (modern fencing) student who is an equestrianess, and I have threatened to hold lessons hostage until they start teaching me how to ride.

I agree with Frye above, BUT....we are going to need some kind of easy gateway into jousting. We're going to need some way to let someone sample this. How we would do this, I have no idea, because horsemanship isn't exactly my forte.

As we develop the cadre of the Hardcore, though, I completely agree that the bar needs to be set high.

[Sir Alexis]

Alejandro, if you're not familiar with it, the SCA already has a 'safe and sane' lance design that has a lance tipped with foam. We have been able to take folkis with minimal riding skills and put them on a 'made' horse and have them be able to have them 'jousting' relatively quickly. What we have to make sure they understand is that being able to make some passes without incident does not a jouster make.
What the foam lances do is help provide a wide margin of error for folks to get a feel for things. When it comes to jousting, the difficulty is that there is 'the death of a thousand cuts', i.e. learn to ride, one handed, with weapons, in harness, while targetting, against a moving target, while being targetted.....So, if you are wanting to get started, the first step is to learn to ride without distractions, then keep working from there. Once you have the riding basics down, the foam lances can be a step on the road to balsa jousting. Just be sure to master one set of skills before adding the next layer of complexity
Regards,
Alexis

[Black Swan Designs]

On a tangental note, the next Knight School will be held January 9, here at Knight's Crossing in Ramona.

Knight School is generally held the first Saturday of the month. We moved it for January as most of our regular students have holiday-related commitments. Knight School will return to the first Saturday format in February.

We provide basic thru advanced lessons and practice in riding (although we prefer you get your very basic skills at a proper riding facility with a riding instructor), weapons handling and games, lance handling, technique and jousting.

We will he holding Open Practices in January, see the Knight School website for details.

We will also be working with the local SCA equestrian community to lend support as we are able.

Gwen

[Jonathon Janusz]

Hi, all! Just saw this thread and I thought I could offer a little insight. About me regarding balsa jousting, I've rolled with Lloyd for the last few years doing on/off the field logistics and ran his ground team at the tourney in Michigan. I think it would be great if this got going here in the US, as the SCA is one of the largest driving forces for medieval pursuits in this country. It would be awesome to have an organization top to bottom in the US this big with activities taken to the level of the dreams of the folks I've read about in threads here regardings SCA's Combat of the Thirty. That said, here are a couple (maybe more somber) things off the top of my head:

First, please to anyone reading these posts, if some of the folks who have done this before get a little short/blunt/direct/excited in posts regarding safety, equipment standards, safety, equestrian skill, safety, training, safety. . . (I think you get the idea), don't take it as an offense, direct personal attack, or someone just trying to rain on your parade.

No matter how much fun this can be, it is not worth the lives or livelihood of our horses, our friends, and our family. Please note that I put the horses first intentionally, as they should be treated like your children in this pursuit - they are being put in harms way with limited means to protect themselves and no knowledge of the potential for disaster. It is up to the people to see the horses make it through the day as healthy and happy as they came in. I have been asked and helped decide to shut down a show for the safety of a horse before and would do so again without hesitation given the circumstances to press the decision.

Also, quite frankly, if you care more about the jousting than the people around you (I only say this because I've seen it before), I have no place for you on my field. Yes, when I am given charge of it, it becomes MY field. I take great and personal responsibility for EVERYTHING that happens on AND OFF it until our deed be done. I am all but the first to set foot on it (before the trucks and trailers and crew and everything else start rolling in), and I am the last to leave (be dragged from ) it as it is my personal responsibility to return it, everyone, and everything on it back to wherever/however it is they came in as good or better order than they arrived. In short, horses first, people first too, and everything else just as it started as best can be managed.

If all the above sounds like a lot of work and a lot of responsibility for little (as in usually less than no) pay other than personal satisfaction as reward, it is. But if you really want to be part of something special, that satisfaction (and a lot of great things that go with it) can change your life (and for the worse if you're not very careful about it).

Second, because the SCA is a lot of things and tries to be that for a lot of people, see if you can find Rod Walker and point him to this thread. As of right now, he's one of the only people I know that has done what looks to be all but every style of joust from every period the SCA covers, including (I think) steel tipped solid lances against padded mail and shields. If there is anybody who would know what bits of gear do what and how from having lived through it (including time periods on far less beaten paths than most of us - myself included), Rod's the guy who has pretty much done it all, consulted on the movie, and is probably holding out a couple years on the book deal.

Third, I know this might be a bit off topic from the original post, but almost universally in the US, what I've heard folks have concern about beyond almost everything else in actually doing contact jousting in the US is obtaining and the cost of insurance. Flat out, it isn't cheap, there are only a few companies that would even THINK about touching it, covers far less than anyone would like, is almost always a completely separate piece of work from any other sporting or event insurance you might already have, and is absolutely necessary in our sadly sue-happy country. Oh, and did I mention it isn't cheap? This is one of those "behind the scenes" things that has shut down the prospect of more jousting in the US than anyone probably realizes.

Last, and I don't know if it would be possible to fit in the timeframe the people in charge would like to get the project moving, before deciding if this is something the SCA can and wants to do (note again my choice of words - "would like" is kind of assumed here), I would highly recommend the policy makers find an established, experienced, and successful crew and either tag along as volunteers to learn the ropes beginning to end once or twice, or maybe at one of the bigger SCA events hire on a crew like this to do a show and shadow them to really see how it is done before committing a lot of time and expense into the project. Experience is the best teacher and in this case will (again note the choice of words) save a life someday.

Short story long, sounds like fun, good luck, and I'm with Lloyd and the rest - if you need a hand, there are a lot of folks would would be glad to help.

[Rittmeister Frye]

Jonathan, I don't think that the SCA is going to allow for any sport that it isn't properly insured for. That's one of the nice things about the BoD being rather retentive about this sort of thing. If we are allowed to suit up and ride at an SCA event, we'll be covered, no question.

Cheers,

Gordon

[2Shires]

What Gordon said.

Also, Jonathan please don't assume that because this is new to the SCA, that it is new to the people blazing the trail here.

I don't know Dave (Sir Alexis)from Adam but I do know that he is no babe in the woods when it comes to balsa and horses. The same goes for many of us who have been doing the same for some time.

You are right about one thing though. I can't think of anyone more experienced in all the facets of the joust than Rod. He's done it and done it right.

Bev

[Leo Medii]

I've been involved with jousting since I was 16 and squired at the MRF for the NRGA.

My household spends much time around listfields, and that is OUTSIDE the SCA. Many are experienced ground crew. I would hazard a guess that most people talking about balsa in the SCA have been around, and this ain't thier first rodeo. It wasn't allowed in the SCA for the longest time, so we had to do it on the outside. Heck, I have a listfield in my front yard!

Got the t-shirt.

[Kilkenny]

Jonathan, I think we all appreciate your intent.

That said, it helps to read a thread before making detailed and extensive comments. For example, Rod Walker has been participating in the discussion, so I doubt we need to bring him to this thread- he's already here.

There has already been extensive development work. There's going to be lots more - that is also made quite clear in the course of the thread.

[Sir Alexis]

Hi all,
A bit of information on the insurance question. The following is what I have been told from Society corporate officers when getting new activities approved. SCA equestrian has been shaped by the way the insurance has been dealt with. For many years there was a separate insurance rider that had a line item prohibition against any activities that had interaction, i.e. polo, vaulting, etc. A few years back that rider was removed, which then gave us more room to experiment. We started with the mounted crest combat that featured targetting the crest only with padded weapons. When that proved 'safe' enough, we were able to begin experimenting with the foam tipped lances. Subsequently, we were able to 'upgrade' to full mounted combat, albeit still using lightly padded weapons' Now we are at the point of 'upgrading' to balsa since we have a track record of being 'safe' with the foam jousting.
All this has been done without any insurance coverage for individuals. Let me be clear so that there won't be any misunderstandings. The SCA maintains liability insurance to cover liability incurred by the SCA for its operations, it does not provide either liability or health coverage for members or third parties. When I participate at events, or provide horses for loaners, I do so knowing and accepting the risks involved. If folks feel the need to have insurance in place, they will have to provide it for themselves.
Regards,
Alexis/Dave

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

If folks feel the need to have insurance in place, they will have to provide it for themselves.
Regards,
Alexis/Dave

That type of "Insurance" being -personal- accident and injury insurance.

"Liability" or "spectator liability" is the insurance we carry for our WorldJoust tournaments, and I believe this is what the SCA carries also. It covers damages and legal costs incurred by participants/members, both to venue and spectators, NOT to the participants themselves.

I am unaware of any affordable personal accident and injury insurance for jousting in North America. Liability insurance is not cheap, but obtainable.

[Kilkenny]

If folks feel the need to have insurance in place, they will have to provide it for themselves.
Regards,
Alexis/Dave

That type of "Insurance" being -personal- accident and injury insurance.

"Liability" or "spectator liability" is the insurance we carry for our WorldJoust tournaments, and I believe this is what the SCA carries also. It covers damages and legal costs incurred by participants/members, both to venue and spectators, NOT to the participants themselves.

I am unaware of any affordable personal accident and injury insurance for jousting in North America. Liability insurance is not cheap, but obtainable.

I wonder if we have any insurance industry people here on the Archive who might be able to provide an informed opinion regarding the potential for putting together some kind of cooperative of jousters that could get a group rate on the sort of personal insurance that might be advisable for the activity.

We've got such a broad spectrum of expertise around here, just curious if something along those lines might be viable and if we've got a person who can speak with some industry knowledge on the subject...

[Gorm]

Pretty close, Jeffrey...

The SCA insurance does not cover anyone "participating" at all...and, since by SCA definition, if you're there, you're participating (and you signed a waiver to that effect).

Our insurance basically covers legal liability for officers acting in their official capacity and site damages. Not a whole heck of a lot else.

[Bridei]

Dear All,

This is Bridei nic Gillechattan, mka Lory Aitken, of Madison, WI. I will be stepping up soon as the Northshield Constable of the Cavalry (equestrian marshall). Lloyd Clark can tell you I started "stalking" IJA jousters several years ago because I wanted to joust mundanely. I didn't, due to real life, but I can't wait to get the Northshield equestrians involved. Some of us are already authorized for foam jousting, but pink lances still make me giggle.

I have already e-mailed Lloyd and told him that I SAW his offer of assistance and will hold him to it. Keep us posted and I will do the same.

Enthusiastically,

Bridei / Lory

[hunrvogt]

If folks feel the need to have insurance in place, they will have to provide it for themselves.
Regards,
Alexis/Dave

That type of "Insurance" being -personal- accident and injury insurance.

I am unaware of any affordable personal accident and injury insurance for jousting in North America. Liability insurance is not cheap, but obtainable.

I wonder if we have any insurance industry people here on the Archive who might be able to provide an informed opinion regarding the potential for putting together some kind of cooperative of jousters that could get a group rate on the sort of personal insurance that might be advisable for the activity.

Not an insurance industry person, but USEF has a $1,000,000 excess personal liability policy covering all non-business, horse related injury and property damage included in the price of each of it's "competing" memberships. At $55 a year, I don't think anyone will be able to find equivalent personal liability coverage that's much cheaper.

http://www.equisure-inc.com/equine/article3.html

"Excess Personal Liability: Members receive personal excess liability coverage with a $1,000,000 policy limit. Coverage is for claims brought against members of USEF arising from the use and/or ownership of a horse and for horse-related accidents involving bodily injury or property damage. Coverage will apply when engaged in any horse-related activity and coverage is in excess of any existing valid and collectable insurance. There is no deductible. Professional Liability is not included and business exposures are excluded."


http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/memberServ ... vices.aspx

"You can join the country's largest multi-breed equestrian organization and 91,000 equestrians like you, who love horses and horse sports. When you sign up for a competing membership, you will receive an array of outstanding benefits: automatic insurance coverage, a subscription to EQUESTRIAN, eligibility to compete in United States Equestrian Federation-licensed competitions, eligibility to become a United States Equestrian Federation judge or steward (Senior Active and Life members only), eligibility to participate in the United States Equestrian Federation awards programs, and amateur certification, which is free of charge for those who qualify. We also have two levels of non-competing memberships as well."

- Else