Historical Accuracy of Open Faced Brigandine

[somomailler]

Is there any example of open faced brigandine in museum exhibts, artwork or writing? I know of a few movies that show it but we all know how hollywood can be. If it is historically correct, what time period would be applicable.

[Jess]

Not sure what you mean. Can you post a pic or a link to a closed faced version of what you are talking about?

[somomailler]

well closed face would be plates on the inside of the "backing" where open faced is like http://www.schmitthenner.com/images/SCH1448b.jpg

[Konstantin the Red]

As I suspected: historically, there was no such thing as "open face brigandine." Somebody who knows a lot less than he should about arms and armor is misleading you -- not so much out of malice as out of being a newb SCAdian. Inexperience. That item is Braveheart leatherwork, and the movie is the opposite of an unimpeachable source when it comes to armor and armor forms. Its most authentic gear was the helmets, and these were from something like a three-centuries' spread from oldest to newest in a wild assortment. All on one early-fourteenth-century Scottish battlefield... what the F......irth of Forth?!

Open face hot beef sandwiches, however... mmmm, period -- to the twentieth century!

[InsaneIrish]

I don't think it is historical. Brigadines not only had plates riveted to a backing, but they overlapped.

What you linked to is a fantasy piece slightly inpired by history.

[somomailler]

good to know. I actually didnt believe it had any historical value. Can you guys tell me if leather was ever used as plates in a C-O-P?

[Konstantin the Red]

AFAWK, never.

Which is not to say stout leather has no utility in making your harness! Far from it.

And there are a lot of leather goods among the medievalists that are really good. There's footwear, there's costrels and jacks for the Englishmen (they used pitched jacks on account of the tariff and tax picture for imported Continental ceramics), belts and straps, sporrans for yuir resident Scots, on and on. But yes, these are mainly the homely, craftsy items -- and there was some considerable quality of work executed in those bygone days.

I think after being used to leather prices, you will be much struck by how cheap a similar square footage of steel is to buy, especially if you're buying from a shop you find in the Yellow Pages under "Steel," or in a scrapyard.

[somomailler]

i plan on working with steel also, as I did some work with a reputable armorer a few times. But i currently dont have any dishing forms. I like doing it all maybe im crazy but I do a little bit of leather, chainmail, belts, pouches, ect. Hoping to make boots soon, if i can get a decent pattern. Hehe maybe im crazy .

[Kilkenny]

As I suspected: historically, there was no such thing as "open face brigandine." Somebody who knows a lot less than he should about arms and armor is misleading you -- not so much out of malice as out of being a newb SCAdian. Inexperience. That item is Braveheart leatherwork, and the movie is the opposite of an unimpeachable source when it comes to armor and armor forms. Its most authentic gear was the helmets, and these were from something like a three-centuries' spread from oldest to newest in a wild assortment. All on one early-fourteenth-century Scottish battlefield... what the F......irth of Forth?!

Open face hot beef sandwiches, however... mmmm, period -- to the twentieth century!

Curiously, though, Norman has provided some examples recently of Eastern European body harness that does involve something that could well be described as a coat of plates with the plates exposed on the outside.

[Konstantin the Red]

Ah yes, Norman... explorer of fields far to the east of anything I actually know diddly about.

[Halbrust]

Norman has provided some examples recently of Eastern European body harness that does involve something that could well be described as a coat of plates with the plates exposed on the outside.

Can someone point me to these examples?
I've seeemed to miss them somehow

[Norman]

well closed face would be plates on the inside of the "backing" where open faced is like http://www.schmitthenner.com/images/SCH1448b.jpg

This link is blocked by my office security so can't comment on the specific picture.
"Braveheart" was an especial travesty of historical costuming.
But Coat of Plates armour with plates on the outside certainly existed.
There is some possibility of it existing in Western Europe based on the art in a particular manuscript of "Romance of Alexander" (Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight reproduces one or two images) There are also a few effiges wearing what some on this forum have called "brickwork scale" (ie: you could call it scale armour - but the plates are bigger and rectangular)
Here is a Siberian-Mongol Coat of Plates picture that I happen to have handy (I would guess that the orange shirt is not original)

This is the conversation it came up in
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... p?t=109585
Similar sorts of things have been found in Russian context (though they were likely waist length - as opposed to the integral skirts that this one has).

[Sean Powell]

Norman,

Thats a time period I'm not familiar with at all, but wouldn't it be more plausible that the large rivet heads exposed to the exterior were originally used to secure the plates to an exterior fabric or leather layer? Or are their rivet heads on the inside as well?

I can see the series of small holes that could have been used to sew each plates to an interior layer... but I'm not convinced that wern't included for a different purpose such as a sewn edge liner to prevent the plates from abrading the fabric underneath.

It's unlikely but do you know of the arceological report associate with that piece? Were they found assembled to the fragment of fabric or were they in a jumble in the bottom of a well or in situ around a corpse? I'm curious what we know about it beyond the picture of the setup shown.

Thanks!
Sean

[^]

I think this is partially terminology issue. A brigandine is a specific set of things being covered on the outside is one of those. There are armours similar to it that have plates on the outside or connected differently.

[Dan Howard]

At what point do the plates become small enough to be classed as scale armour?

[chef de chambre]

I don't think it is so much size of plates, as to wether they are sewn to a foundation under them, as opposed to the foundation going over them and having a decorative cover.

Exposed plates would equate to scale armour, covered plates would equate to brigandine work.

[Sasha_Khan]

Many of the terra-cotta army (Chinese, 2nd C BCE) have CoPs with plates on the outside.

[mackenzie]

Coat, possibly with plates on outside, from Holkham Picture Bible, English, 1326-1327.




Source:
English Medieval Knight 1300-1400
ISBN-13:978-1-84176-145-9

[Effingham]

Many of the terra-cotta army (Chinese, 2nd C BCE) have CoPs with plates on the outside.

Those are all lamellar or scale armours.

[Tibbie Croser]

Is the following a reasonable guide to correct terminology?

Scale: plates riveted or sewn to the outside of the base material
Lamellar: plates laced together, no base material inside or outside
Coat of plates: fewer and larger plates attached to inside of base material
Brigandine: more numerous and smaller plates attached to inside of base material

The so-called "open-faced brigandine" is what some others have referred to as "larpandine," a fantasy armor beloved of Hollywood and role-playing games.

[Norman]

Dan Howard - At what point do the plates become small enough to be classed as scale armour?

chef de chambre - I don't think it is so much size of plates, as to wether they are sewn to a foundation under them, as opposed to the foundation going over them and having a decorative cover.
Exposed plates would equate to scale armour, covered plates would equate to brigandine work.

Obviously all of these terms are artificial modern attempts to create a classification system.
"scale" just doesn't seem like the right term once the plates are over a certain size/ shape
What winds up happening in discusing armour in a worldwide (rather than Western European) context is that "scale" will often refer to armour that realy looks like scales or has small rectangular uniform plates. Once they get bigger and perhaps varied from the rectangular (to quote the Supreme Court on obscenity, "I don't know how to describe it but I know it when I see it") the term no longer realy fits, "Coat of Plates" may be used genericaly for an armour with multiple plates on the inside or outside while Brigandine (again when you extend the term worldwide) becomes the term for armour with plates inside.
Two other perhaps relevant terms here are laminar (meaning horizontal strips like the "Lorica Segmentata" or the "Anime") and lamellar - small plates connected to each with cords.

..wouldn't it be more plausible that the large rivet heads exposed to the exterior were originally used to secure the plates to an exterior fabric or leather layer? Or are their rivet heads on the inside as well?
I can see the series of small holes that could have been used to sew each plates to an interior layer... but I'm not convinced that wern't included for a different purpose such as a sewn edge liner to prevent the plates from abrading the fabric underneath.
It's unlikely but do you know of the arceological report associate with that piece? Were they found assembled to the fragment of fabric or were they in a jumble in the bottom of a well or in situ around a corpse? I'm curious what we know about it beyond the picture of the setup shown.

I just used that picture as the one that happened to be in my computer as representative of a common type. That said - to the specifics of what I have on it:
I do not have the archeologist's report but the restoration report.
It was found during a 1985-87 expedition in a Kereksur (like a Kurgan - ie: burial mount) at Bazino, republic of Buryatia. It was cleaned and restored in 1998. Fabric did not survive and aproximately 35-40% of the metal has corroded away. Bandura (the restorer) refers to publications by Gorelik for comparable finds. This is a rather complex armour -- plates differ in size and attachment style based on protective and mobility needs -- in addition to plates that riveted or were sewn to the base garment, there are also plates that were evidently fastened to each other with cords (ie: lamellar)
Regarding the big rivets Sean,
looking at how just mashed and ugly they seem, I'm thinking that before all the corrosion they had been hammered flush with the surface of the plate -- so as to be not visible at all when the suit was new and shiny.

[chef de chambre]

Dan Howard - At what point do the plates become small enough to be classed as scale armour?

chef de chambre - I don't think it is so much size of plates, as to wether they are sewn to a foundation under them, as opposed to the foundation going over them and having a decorative cover.
Exposed plates would equate to scale armour, covered plates would equate to brigandine work.

Obviously all of these terms are artificial modern attempts to create a classification system.
"scale" just doesn't seem like the right term once the plates are over a certain size/ shape...

Not in a European context. The terms are contemporary to the armour, and are clearly used as descriptives for two different forms of armour, which co-existed for @ a 75 year span.

Rather, it is lumping the European terms to arbitrarily cover armours manufactured outside of Europe which is the modern attermpt to create a artificial system of classification.

[Norman]

Rather, it is lumping the European terms to arbitrarily cover armours manufactured outside of Europe which is the modern attermpt to create a artificial system of classification.

That's what I said

[chef de chambre]

I am refering to coats of plates and brigandines in your specific example. I badly quoted your post because I was in a hurry.

My point was, coats of plates and brigandiens are not interchangable, they are different terms for different types of armour, wirth an overlap of being contemporary to one another. Describing Chinese or Mongolian armour as coats of plates or brigandines leads to confusion, I think it would be better to refer to those spoecific armours by the terms used historiocally for them.

At any rate, no such animal exists as an 'open faced coat of plates' or brigandine.

[Daniel S]

Whatever the correct term, plates that cover the torso without an external cover (in early 14th century, so NOT brigandines) have been discussed earlier. I cannot locate the original thread at the moment but here is the version I found through the search function: http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... oat+plates

Unfortunately some pictures are missing in this version.

[Norman]

Its no good using the Mongol terms because they seem to refer more to the cut of the armour than the construction (essentialy a term that translates something like "plate-armoured long coat" will refer to lamellar, external plates or internal plates) and we're not speaking solely Mongol origin -- but Turk, Finn, Russian, Mongol... and the things painted in that particular "Romance of Alexander" manuscript.

Also -- to answer questions like the one asked here it would be false (and @$$#0!eish to be so pedantic.

You can not answer "there is no such thing as an open faced brigandine"
Because you are just blowing the person off for the sin that he does not happen to share your detailed knowledge of theoreticaly correct terminology.

Rather the answer is --

"Brigandine" is the name of a specific armour originating in ... at ... period which had small plates on the inside of fabric (chef can fill in the place, date, and name of the armourer who patented it).
However, there were armours, mostly outside of Western Europe, which had plates of various sizes riveted or sewn to the outside of a garment. Some of these have small uniform plates and can handily be described as "scale".
Others are more complex and reminiscent in general structure to the Coat of Plates -- a term which however we normaly use for a European armour with plates on the inside."

PS: I will have to check my library, but it is my recollection that no less a person than H.Russel Robinson uses Brigandine and Coat of Plates in the generic manner I described above.

[Dan Howard]

Robinson also seriously confused the difference between scale and lamellar. Though in his Roman book he clarified things.