I want to learn more about Polypropylene swords!

[Steve S.]

I agree it looks like B. Amos had material that lasted a bit longer but still only 137 whacks and it broke. That is a bummer. I throw 200 plus shots in my warm up pell drills. No I am not striking a steel I-beam but still....

But this in itself should not be a disqualifying issue. Inspection issues aside, if the material is as safe as rattan, then that should be sufficient to allow its use.

It should be up to individuals to decide whether it is durable enough for them compared to rattan.

Personally, I can't see getting 137 whacks on the end of a steel I-beam out of any rattan sword, especially the skinned stuff.

I'd love to see Bro. Amos repeat the test with rattan for comparison.

Steve

[Kilkenny]

I'm not so sure. It seems we're getting very mixed reports.

Bro. Amos has a piece that withstands his torture testing.

Count Jonathan blows one up in less than a practice.

I can't be convinced one way or the other by such a small and diverse sample set.

All I'm saying is that if we could get stuff like Bro. Amos is using in the video then the results of his video are highly encouraging.

I still have not heard a confirmation that Bro. Amos and Count Jonathan were actually using the same material.

Steve

Did I misunderstand "I'm freaking sold" ?

And no, we're not entirely clear that they had the same material, or if it was "the same" material but there's enough variation in manufacture that both results are possible with "the same" material. And in this case, by "the same" material I mean if we all order the same catalog number from the same source, then it's "the same" material...

And Jonathan - am I seeing concoidal fracture there in that chip ? If it is, that's not a good sign for the suitability of the material.

[Duke Patrick O'Malley]

It's the poly from the link Patrick posted.

I agree it looks like B. Amos had material that lasted a bit longer but still only 137 whacks and it broke. That is a bummer. I throw 200 plus shots in my warm up pell drills. No I am not striking a steel I-beam but still....

Hitting a steel helmet is going to yield similar results over time.

Interesting, in two years of testing in Caid we have not seen a failure like that. We have broken six. I broke three of them over helmets at practice, all where clean safe brakes. I have used three different suppliers there is a slight color difference in the materials from different sources. The blanks from Mc Master-Carr might last a little longer but there are too many variables as the total number of swords used in the test here is about twenty.

[Jon Barber]

Again, I might have missed it in this thread but has anyone looked at what Purpleheart is doing?

http://www.woodenswords.com/WMA/synthetic.LS.typeI.htm

http://www.woodenswords.com/WMA/synthetic.LS.typeII.htm

We're using those for sparring - they're spiffy. Using McDavid hex pads and steel gauntlets you can go pretty hard with them.

[B. Amos]

Thanks for the picture Johnos. While interesting that it fractured like that it appears that the material did not form a dagger like point that could stab someone. durrability asside, it seems like a safe material to me. And before we go into the "pieces of swords flying into crowds" argument I have seen rattan do the same thing. YMMV

[Count Johnathan]

...And Jonathan - am I seeing concoidal fracture there in that chip ? If it is, that's not a good sign for the suitability of the material.

Yes but unlike glass or obsidian I can't exactly say that it is sharp other than in appearance.

[Count Johnathan]

Thanks for the picture Johnos. While interesting that it fractured like that it appears that the material did not form a dagger like point that could stab someone. durrability asside, it seems like a safe material to me. And before we go into the "pieces of swords flying into crowds" argument I have seen rattan do the same thing. YMMV

No the end did not form a point that could stab someone. Like I said my only concern other than the fact that it was not durable enough to even make it through one practice was the end that broke off has considerable weight to it. Rattan normally when it breaks (if it does break instead of just brooming) still usually is attached due to its fibrous nature. When this thing snapped it was a free flying mass that I would compare to half a hockey puck. I did find it interesting that what you used did stay attached when it failed. I believe that it is safe enough for whacking folks but at its cost and lack of being significantly more durable it's more just a waste of money. Rattan is cheaper. Now if we could find a material like this that was extruded with nylon strings in it that would be something of value. I would think it would be more similar to rattan and perhaps even have some of the compression on impct characteristics that makes rattan work so well for what we do.

[Christophe de Frisselle]

Is everyone using the same ASTM material? Looks like two different materials or variants which gave differing result, of course.

[Steve S.]

Did I misunderstand "I'm freaking sold" ?

I'm freaking sold on the material that Bro. Amos used.

Steve

[Christophe de Frisselle]

Did I misunderstand "I'm freaking sold" ?

I'm freaking sold on the material that Bro. Amos used.

Steve

Um, yeah. Brother Amos, What are the specs on that?

[Corby de la Flamme]

It's the poly from the link Patrick posted.

I agree it looks like B. Amos had material that lasted a bit longer but still only 137 whacks and it broke. That is a bummer. I throw 200 plus shots in my warm up pell drills. No I am not striking a steel I-beam but still....

Hitting a steel helmet is going to yield similar results over time.

This strikes me as a very odd opinion. Helmeted heads are MUCH more forgiving than concrete filled steel poles or the 90° edge of a 1/4" thick steel I beam post.

I'll repeat again that if I had done what I did to that tether ball pole with a good piece of rattan, it would no longer have been fit to use for tournament. The poly rod showed NO wear.

I used a poly sword last night at our practice for all my fighting. It showed no wear, and none of the fighters noticed any difference in its hitting characteristics. In my opinion, it is slightly more flexy than rattan of the same diameter, but acceptably so. It is about as heavy, at 1.25" as a 1.5" piece of rattan of the same length.

[Mansur]

I have been one of those testing a Polypropelyne sticks. Have been for quite some time.

I'm a big guy and I'm not a light hitter, and I have used it in every practice for over a year. I don't know if it is ready to break, but it sure hasn't broken yet. I have never had a rattan stick last anywhere near that long. I'd be lucky to get three months out of one during the tourney season, and my record is breaking one in a month.

Frankly these suppositions that this new material will not have acceptable durability are ridiculous. It has already proven to be FAR more durable than rattan can ever hope to be. Give Amos a stick of rattan, let's see how many strikes against a steel pole it can endure.

Not only that, but (and imo more importantly) because it is manufactured to exacting specs, it will have a much more consistent density, will be perfectly straight, and will have the same thickness.

No more looking for that perfect stick of rattan with the right curve, balance and heft. Now every stick I tape up will have the exact same weight, density and dimensions, so I will not have to make any adjustments to my style to account for it.

As you can see I'm very enthusiastic about this new material. I'll be bringing it to tournaments as soon as it is permissible.

[Count Johnathan]

Well Corby, maybe you Atlantians don't hit as hard as you think you do.

That's a joke.

Seriously though I was also impressed when I got the stick I was using and it seemed as if was going to be a great investment but when it broke at the very first practice I was quite bummed out. I did note that yes it looks like what B. Amos was using was considerably more durable but still 137 whacks and then failure is not all that great. Sure a person in a helmet is quite a bit more forgiving than a concrete filled post but it's still a solid steel surface that is being struck so after some time (maybe more than what I got out of my stick) it will break. Feel free to buy this stuff and beat the tar out of each other with it I am not opposed to that at all but my experience was that I wasted money on something that did not yield my desired results. YMMV of course and as has been noted different manufacturers will produce different quality materials which is fine. If a good durable rattan substitute is found that's great but with the variations in materials available I do have to agree it sounds like a near impossibility for marshals to distinguish between these materials.

I would very much like to find a suitable material that behaves like rattan but lasts considerably longer. Unfortunately the stick I tested was not that product. I also wish that Patrick had told us that he had already broken 3 of these sticks in practice. I would not have spent my money on it if I had known that because Caidens hit fairly light as well.

Another joke

[Steve S.]

I think it's important to reiterate here that what Count Jonathan and Bro. Amos bought were from two different sources. They were not the same material.

I think it would be worthwhile to call McMaster-Carr and find the actual supplier and supplier part number for the material McMaster-Carr is selling, if they will provide it. If you explain to them that you need to be sure that you are buying the exact same product each time and cannot tolerate changes in supplier or lots, they should be willing to help you.

What you ultimately want to know is who actually manufactured what Bro. Amos got, and what exactly that product is.

If it's just sold as "natural polypropelene rod", McMaster-Carr might buy it from 5 different sources, and each could be a slightly different blend of material.

Steve

[Armand d'Alsace]

Ok, a few interesting points have been mentioned:

The marshal's will not be able to identify the material.
Granted, but I don't think they do that today either. The check dimensions on tapewrapped tubes and the "give" of thrusting tips if present.

Durability vs. Rattan.
I think it would be great if Amos could torture a stick of rattan as well, just to get a comparison. Some of us think that rattan would be useless far sooner than 137 beats, some seem to think the opposite. We need more data.

Consistent equipment for all.
If we can indeed find a material that allows all of us to use the same equipment, it would allow us all to be more consistent in our calibration. This would be a great improvement if we could implement it.

Aquiring the correct material.
This is my biggest concern. If the same material might differ in specs just by being bought from different sources, that will in itself erase the benefits, and just give us an alternative to rattan, but with all the disadvatages of rattan attached to it.

I'd like to try it
I guess I'll be mailing mu KEM today.

[B. Amos]

Some info about durrability from the Caidan front: From Sir Patrick (posted with permission)

I broke one in three months of fighting twice a week. That was the shortest time to brake. The next shortest time was Sir Valeric at six moths of twice a week fighting and one too two nights a week of pell practice. Duke Guilaume got about 10 months of constant use but does not tend to hit as hard as Valeric and I. Duke Sven got about a about a year but was not using it regularly at first. They hit the same from the first blow until the one that brakes them. Rattan lasts me 4-6 weeks of practice and I would not use it in a tournament after two weeks.



They will be legal for use in tournament (still experimental) in Caid next week.

Patrick

We all know Johnos broke one in 15 fights. but most of us are mere humans, not blessed with the godlike strength of an Aten Count.

[AndreasMorgan]

A few years back I got my hands on a few poly rods and I'm not sure if they are exactly the same(but they sure look like it) composition as the ones discussed here. A couple of us experimented privately with them. Two things we noted:1. while these things were the same size and weight of rattan they hit a hell of a lot harder than rattan. and 2. they were prone to breaking in cold temps.

Do the ones Brother Amos is using have these tendencies?


Andreas

[Keegan Ingrassia]

A few years back I got my hands on a few poly rods and I'm not sure if they are exactly the same(but they sure look like it) composition as the ones discussed here. A couple of us experimented privately with them. Two things we noted:1. while these things were the same size and weight of rattan they hit a hell of a lot harder than rattan. and 2. they were prone to breaking in cold temps.

Do the ones Brother Amos is using have these tendencies?


Andreas

No.

[knoch]

I amnot sure if any of the other post asked this question. But can you obtain a larger Dimention and plan the side to down to requierd dimentions? I like my swords with flat sides.

From Knoch

[Vladimir]

What about shaving the sides and cutting a fuller with a router?

[Count Johnathan]

Some info about durrability from the Caidan front: From Sir Patrick (posted with permission)

I broke one in three months of fighting twice a week. That was the shortest time to brake. The next shortest time was Sir Valeric at six moths of twice a week fighting and one too two nights a week of pell practice. Duke Guilaume got about 10 months of constant use but does not tend to hit as hard as Valeric and I. Duke Sven got about a about a year but was not using it regularly at first. They hit the same from the first blow until the one that brakes them. Rattan lasts me 4-6 weeks of practice and I would not use it in a tournament after two weeks.



They will be legal for use in tournament (still experimental) in Caid next week.

Patrick

We all know Johnos broke one in 15 fights. but most of us are mere humans, not blessed with the godlike strength of an Aten Count.

I was hitting like I always do and in the manner that my training partners strike me. When I am training regularly I go through about a stick a month (rattan) so from what Patrick details it seems we are striking with similar force. Perhaps I just hit that perfect spot that caused it to blow up? Having spent 20+ dollars on one stick for less than half a practice I am less than enthusiastic about trying it again though. I am all for finding a synthetic rattan substitute but it seems less eco friendly to be tossing out plastic sticks as often as I go through rattan. And lets not be so down on rattan. Rattan is pretty good stuff. Some cultures build their houses out of it, and furniture, and weapons etc. It's pretty hard to improve on such a well rounded sturdy material that has been utilized by man for so many thousands of years.

If it aint broke....

[Steve S.]

Count Jonathan:

Even if a new substitute material is allowed, I doubt anyone will ever say you can't still use rattan.

So if rattan is what suits you, no doubt you will continue to be able to use it.

Steve

[carlyle]

Even if a new substitute material is allowed, I doubt anyone will ever say you can't still use rattan.

Steve makes a good point. It might seem obvious to many, but I think it bears repeating that introducing a substitute does not necessarily imply wholesale replacement. I realize Jonathan's experience was less than encouraging, but from Amos' demonstration and Patrick's testimony, I also believe the material shows great promise.

What about shaving the sides and cutting a fuller with a router?

While I understand the motivation, I think this might be the wrong approach. Inspired by the Cold Steel example, I believe we would be better served by investigating an injection molded solution. This could provide us with blade-shaped batons that have uniform performance characteristics, while at the same time permitting us to experiment with blade geometries to more closely model rattan dynamics. In short, even if a 1.25" dowel of polypropylene itself does not mirror a similar rattan stick perfectly; by changing both the cross-section and profile, it still might be possible to very closely simulate the same results that can be achieved with rattan.

Respectfully,

Alfred of Carlyle

[Lorccan]

What about shaving the sides and cutting a fuller with a router?

While I understand the motivation, I think this might be the wrong approach. Inspired by the Cold Steel example, I believe we would be better served by investigating an injection molded solution. This could provide us with blade-shaped batons that have uniform performance characteristics, while at the same time permitting us to experiment with blade geometries to more closely model rattan dynamics. In short, even if a 1.25" dowel of polypropylene itself does not mirror a similar rattan stick perfectly; by changing both the cross-section and profile, it still might be possible to very closely simulate the same results that can be achieved with rattan.

Respectfully,

Alfred of Carlyle

However, injection molding would be a one-size-fits-all approach (usually, due to cost). I like my swords different lengths and balances for tourney and war, and I like my grips just so - and I know many fighters have their own unique preferences. It seems to me that shaping one's own is probably a lot more practical for most experienced fighters.

For a newer fighter, without strong opinions of how their weapon should be, a standardized molded poly baton like you describe could be the bee's knees.

[carlyle]

...injection molding would be a one-size-fits-all approach (usually, due to cost). I like my swords different lengths and balances for tourney and war, and I like my grips just so - and I know many fighters have their own unique preferences. It seems to me that shaping one's own is probably a lot more practical for most experienced fighters.

For a newer fighter, without strong opinions of how their weapon should be, a standardized molded poly baton like you describe could be the bee's knees.

While not quite as strictly bound as your post suggests, it is true that a mass-produced blade would be more limited than a simple rattan or polypropylene rod. And there are also additional issues to consider, like incorporating a basket hilt vs using a cruciform hilt, and thrusting tip vs non-thrusting. The designs I'm working on try to address some of these issues, but there is no expectation that they will satisfy everyone. However, if a commercially available weapon can hit 70% or 80% of the market, it's probably a worthwhile endeavor... AoC

[B. Amos]

An archiver just sent me this link on youtoube. Rattan torture test. not sure who defrisselle is but thank you for making this video.

http://www.youtube.com/user/defrisselle#p/a/u/2/saZUzL4V4iw

[Steve S.]

The video is nice but it's a shame we hardly ever get to see the sword blade.

In any case it certainly seems to give up the ghost much more quickly than the plastic piece you tested.

nspired by the Cold Steel example, I believe we would be better served by investigating an injection molded solution.

While that would be cool, injection molding tooling is expensive.

You can shape round rod stock with a router or bandsaw.

Steve

[Steve S.]

Well I see that in other videos he shows the sword more.

It certainly looks like he is able to destroy raw rattan in about 50 strikes. Taping makes a big difference, though, and he gets 100 or so with the taped version.

Steve

[Count Johnathan]

I wouldn't think that shaving the rattan down does much for its durability either.

In any case I am pretty sure that if we wanted to most of us could kill a piece of rattan even faster. Some maybe with a single blow but that is also another fine aspect of rattan. An excessive shot is likely to cause it to break so it keeps our calibration to a small window. I think that's why the power of our swordblows seem to be as standard as they are. The strength of rattan dictates our maximum force used. This could be good or bad depending on your POV. Just a thought.

[carlyle]

While that would be cool, injection molding tooling is expensive.

For an individual, yes -- but spread across a larger market, it's manageable. The manufacturer would have to provide not just equal, but one that is somehow superior, to rattan -- in life, performance, aesthetic, etc. If some or all of these objectives can be achieved, then it becomes more worthwhile to invest in the development of such a product.

You can shape round rod stock with a router or bandsaw.

I've already had some cursory discussions, and I'm somewhat familiar with the technology. Preliminary research leads me to believe that you will not be able to achieve the same benefits with stock removal that are possible with injection molding the same shape. At the very least, they would be different weapons; and I suspect that, to achieve comparable life, one shaped through stock removal would be heavier and less forgiving than it's molded cousin. Of course, for one-off manufacture, stock removal is about the only economical way to begin to achieve the improved aesthetics or improved dynamics that might be possible over simple rod.

Respectfully... AoC

[carlyle]

An excessive shot is likely to cause it to break so it keeps our calibration to a small window. I think that's why the power of our swordblows seem to be as standard as they are. The strength of rattan dictates our maximum force used. This could be good or bad depending on your POV. Just a thought.

Seriously, J-man, what kind of toothpicks are you using in Atenveldt ? Even at my best and were it my intention, there is no way I could have blown up a well-made, newly-wrought sword blade with a single blow. It really sounds like you're stretching to rationalize rattan. I share your concerns, but you've also got to be realistic -- an 1.25" of unprotected rattan would not fare well after ~150 blows against a rigid steel target. And there is no question that the stick would soften significantly long before it failed. Even in the absence of more and better data, the polypropylene clearly has some -- if not all -- of the characteristics we look for in rattan. Whether it would translate one-for-one and could be fought against rattan has yet to be shown (it sounds like Patric is well down that path); but the kind of tortured logic you're presenting is starting to sound pretty jingoistic ("rattan forever!!").

Respectfully (honest!)... AoC

[Count Johnathan]

Nah it's not that. Like I said I am all for finding a suitable and more durable material but over the years as we have tested numerous substitutes rattan has still been the ol' standbye. Doing more testing has just made me think of why rattan has been so good to us over the years.

My issue is that the poly sticks while possibly more durable in some cases does not seem to be as durable as we would like for the pricetag the poly sticks come with.

While it was a bit heavy I did actually like the poly stick I had... till it blew up and now it is garbage

[B. Amos]

NO ONE IS TRYING TO GET RID OF RATTAN!

Even if this matereal does get passed, until we are allowed to get formed ones I will keep using my shapped rattan swords for torneys and wars, they just look and feel better than round rods in my oppinion.

[Christophe de Frisselle]

An archiver just sent me this link on youtoube. Rattan torture test. not sure who defrisselle is but thank you for making this video.

http://www.youtube.com/user/defrisselle#p/a/u/2/saZUzL4V4iw

That would be me. There are three tests submitted as a response to your video. They need your approval to show as a response.
Test one and two are basically the same. The first was just sort of "well, lets hit a stick on a steel edge and see what happens. Then the batteries died about half way through. Test Two and Three are much better. Though I wouldn't want to use a stick after 20 hits like this. That is when the soft spot starts to develop. Though the taped sword would last much longer if retaped after every 20 of such hits.

[Christophe de Frisselle]

Well I see that in other videos he shows the sword more.

It certainly looks like he is able to destroy raw rattan in about 50 strikes. Taping makes a big difference, though, and he gets 100 or so with the taped version.

Steve

Remember that is when the stick if broken. I would fine it unuseable at about half that as you then have a soft spot that grows with each hit due to the internal fibers getting cut. Those of you that like nice crisp hits, would likely find the stick unacceptable at half that or a quarter of there number of braking hits.