Veil style maille drape on a helm

[Halbrust]

I'm having an unbelievably hard time finding decent referrences of a mail drape that crosses in front of the face on a helm without occulars.

Ideally I'd like something from the 10th or 11th century and Turkish or Arabic. But I'll take any and all pictures you can provide.

[InsaneIrish]

SCA, or historical illuminations?

[chef de chambre]

What do you mean by a 'mail drape'? Your description sounds like some sort of curtain of mail, attatched to and pendant from the front of a helmet. If that is what you are looking for, I don't think such a thing existed. There were a number of styles of coifs of mail out there.

[losthelm]

You may have some luck useing avintail or camail as a search terms. when talking about european helms.

Indo-persian is a bit different with just a simple rectangle shape hung from the bottom edge or a cylinder covering the face.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/N ... ttoman.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/N ... et_057.jpg

I know there are better terms for the indo persian helms but Thats what worked for google.

[chef de chambre]

You will note that those are tubes of mail, covering the front and back and sides, with the mail.

Basically, those are aventails, definitely not veils, or curtains. Some Indo-persian helmets, like Kuli-khuds, have pendant neck guards of mail.

[Norman]

Lower half of relief shows Iranian Cataphract with full face mail drape
(circa 7th century)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Knight-Iran.JPG
The use of this type of face defense was probably uninterupted through the time of the late medieval helmets shown by losthelm

A search for "Turban helmet" should yield you lots of those late ones.
A round version is often called a proto-Turban helmet

[Halbrust]

Thank yuou very much!!! The two on photobucket provided are different than teh one I could find. Ad that relief is beautiful! Do you know if there is a higher resolution picture of it so I can try and see some details?

chef- I used the term mail drape because I was told an aventail or camail normally did not cross the face.

[chef de chambre]

Hi Halbrust,

Sorry for the confusion on my part. Were I you, I would stick to aventail in describing such a defense, if you ever write to inquire at a particular museum.

The distinction of definition you have heard sounds like a reenactorisim of a definition. Nobody I am aware of in the community of arms and armour scholars makes such a distinction. A part of a camails definition is that it protects the face. Nevermind we have examples in European art which cover up to the nose, and examples which have integral bretechs, either of plate, or entirely of mail with a ring attatching the nasal of mail to the helmet.

The only defining factor of an aventail or camail is that it is actually attatched to the helmet itself. Most scholars believe Europeans adopted the practise of suspending the mail itself from the helmet from the Middle East, so a European of that day would have likely described a Turks turban helmet as having an aventail, describing said 'viel'.

[Norman]

Sorry Halbrust, that was the best I could find online. I first saw a nice photo of it in a book. When you asked your question I went for a quick google on the assumption that it must be online somewhere.
Try searches on "Cataphract" "Parthian" "Sassanid" "Iranian cavalry" ... and the like, to see if you can find related materials.

Show us what you find.

To possibly hijack the thread a little --

Most scholars believe Europeans adopted the practise of suspending the mail itself from the helmet from the Middle East

This is an interesting thing to think about
On the one hand, it looks like before the cerveilere/ bascinet, europeans are putting the ventail-less helmet on top of a separate mail hood or cap

But, if you go far enough back, the Coopergate helmet has an integral aventail and the art of the period shows a similar fashion with ear pieces and a back drape like the Coopergate to be common in Western Europe. And, of course, we have the very full aventails on some of the Vendel/Valsgarde helmets.

So, it seems that we have essentialy a common helmet fashion from England through Central Asia from roughly 5th century (perhaps dispersed by the Avars and Lombards and related Asiatics swarming into Migration period Europe?) to maybe the 8th? after which
Western Europe moves to simple cap helmets and forgets about integral aventails but then rediscovers them in the 13-ish century

BTW: I think its more likely from Eastern Europe rather than the middle east -- you can trace a direct development of the Bascinet shape including faceplate from Ukranian Kipchak/ Kara Kalpak helmets through Polish intermediate styles to proper Western Bascinets. Though interestingly enough, the two most direct "Bascinet Ancestor" finds do not show a trace of an aventail.
...maybe too simplistic to say "they got it here" -- possibly some sort of merging back of international style between Middle Eastern crusade experiences, East European trade, the Crusade against Eastern Christendom....
and, of course, the Seljuks themselves coming to the Middle East from Eastern Europe...

[chef de chambre]

I will agree with that. My intent was to emphasise it is an Eastern general thing moving west, rather than a local development. I think this is an actual solid example of the phenomenon, as opposed to the Niccole idea of everything in the way of armour technology in the West comes from the East in general.

In regards to the earlier phenomenon, once again, it is East going west, as the Late Empires adoption of 'barbarian' technology to replace its own equipment tradition, as multi-plate helmets were likely quicker and cheaper to fabricate than the traditional imperial styles which were dying out in the 3rd and 4th century, coming out of the Graeco/Itallic/Celtic technologies earlier in the West. As I am sure you are aware, the Anglo-Saxon helmets like Sutton Hoo, are usually seen as either Late Roman examples gussied up, or Native copies of Late Roman styles.

[Norman]

I think this is an actual solid example of the phenomenon, as opposed to the Niccole idea of everything in the way of armour technology in the West comes from the East in general.

But of course it all comes from the Caucas. Why should there be any doubt.
(actualy, I came across a mention (from a legit source) of Khazars (roughly 10th century Ukrain) using articulating rivets -- now I've been going crazy trying to track down the details of what the assertion was based on )

an Eastern general thing moving west, rather than a local development. ...In regards to the earlier phenomenon, once again, it is East going west, as the Late Empires adoption of 'barbarian' technology to replace its own equipment tradition...

Right. What I was noticing ...and thinking interesting ...strange - is that the same transmission had to happen twice!
There is often talk about Roman know-how being lost to "the dark ages"
But in this case it was a "dark ages" technology already, then it got lost as the ages "lightened up" a little and had to be reimported into use.

[Halbrust]

<a href="http://media.photobucket.com/image/great polish helm/Donngal/Daves armour and stuff/Rus Armour/stainless4panelRus.jpg?o=1" target="_blank"><img src="http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa184/Donngal/Daves%20armour%20and%20stuff/Rus%20Armour/stainless4panelRus.jpg" border="0"></a>

Here's a great SCA representation of what I want.
The only change I'd want in teh looks would be to bring the mail up and attach it to the cross bar. (and hope I'd still be able to see fine)

Now to make it happen for about $900 less than said example!

[Steve S.]

The other thing I would do in that picture is make the maille aventail follow the seam of metal from the top bowl of the helmet to the back wrapper.

Steve

[Halbrust]

Looks like it does to me.

[Konstantin the Red]

Maybe Steve meant not having that strip of metal the drape attaches to visible between helmet skull and mail, the way it is in the pic. If that's metal; could be leather.

Norm, as for the eastern origin of the cerveillière and bascinet, when we get to the camail attachment method, I think this origin story breaks down. I've never heard of any eastern piece attaching mail to the helmet by means of the strap, vervelles, and retaining wire.