Spanish? Scale Armor

[Ernst]

For years I have been trying to get further information on the one, reportedly medieval, surviving scale armor in the Museo de Arqueologia in Vitoria-Gatiez, Alava, Spain. Line drawings of this armor appear in several Osprey texts concerning medieval Spain. Unfortunately, the Museum was in the process of moving facilities for several years. More recently the long-time Directora resigned amidst charges of faking Roman archeological finds in collusion with several archaeologists. Recently, I noticed a new photograph of the "Vitoria escamas" on MyArmoury.com. It seems that the armor was removed to the Museo de Armeria de Alava.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=84133

A Spanish re-enactor's forum has a larger copy of the photo.

http://foro.clandelcuervo.com/viewtopic ... 82490e67aa

It seems from information there that an argument is being made that this is of Chinese manufacture.

The breastplate of scales Vitoria has been allocated a very extensive chronology, usually roams between the twelfth and the fourteenth ... although it has also been part of an exhibition on Visigoths in Toledo. However, some scholars such as Rogers-LaRocca consider China a manufacture of the XVIII-XIX, because of its enormous similarities with other specimens.

The scale construction doesn't look like any Roman scale I've ever studied. I doubt it's Visigothic. Perhaps Arabic/Moorish? Does anyone know of the construction of Chinese or Moorish scale armors for comparison?

I still feel certain that scale armor was sometimes used in medieval Europe, but feel very doubtful that the Vitoria armor can be used as a basis for reconstruction.

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/205/ ... gq3ow8.jpg

[Gocauo]

Can't help you too much with the armor, but reading a bit more of the thread they seem to feel that is possible Persian or more likely Chinese; then they seem to wander off on to brigandine.

But thanks for the link anyway...I get to wrack my brain trying to remember the Spanish I learned growing up !

[kersme]

Not entirely relevent to Spain, but here are some 12th/14th century (i can't remember, was visiting too many churches that day), frescoes from Souther Serbia. Shape of the scales are the same, and in some cases the colour. Would that cancel the possibility of China or am I jumping the gun?
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a272/ ... Medium.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a272/ ... Medium.jpg

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Since the material backing the scales is organic, carbon dating should be able to give a reliable age on it.

I think I have seen 19thC Chinese scale like this, so I think I'd like the CD.

[Ernst]

AMS Carbon dating can be done for about 600USD, which is often unobtainable for a small provincial museum which may have little interest in the artifact anyway. I'm not ruling out Chinese manufacture simply because I've never seen Chinese scale armor construction. Given the Museo de Arqueologia's tarnished record of acquisitions, an 18th c. Chinese origin wouldn't surprise me. I'm probably more let-down that a reportedly extant medieval scale armor probably isn't that at all.

[Norman]

Not entirely relevent to Spain, but here are some 12th/14th century (i can't remember, was visiting too many churches that day), frescoes from Souther Serbia. Shape of the scales are the same, and in some cases the colour. Would that cancel the possibility of China or am I jumping the gun?
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a272/ ... Medium.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a272/ ... Medium.jpg

The Serbian art is spot on -- and it may actualy support a "China" origin - in the wide sense. Ie - a Mongol armour, though likely manufactured within the Golden Horde or Crimean Kaganate (ie: European Mongols) but possibly in a style that goes back to East Asian origins (though depending on your politics - you may not want to call it China - ie: not Han but either KaraKhitai or Mongol).
I have definitely seen such scale from Asian origins - but I can not remember if it was Chinese or Indian.