Issues with gripping cross hilted swords

[Jonathon More]

I wish we were close by. I'd have you try on my gauntlets because from the pics I've seen of you I believe we're pretty similar in size and build.

who?

[mordreth]

I have a pair of Stealth gauntlets from DarkHeart that I have been fighting in exclusively for almost four years. I had trouble with gripping the sword, throwing a good shot, cramping, etc until I was watching "The Duelists" and had a flash about the sword knots on the cav sabres in the first duel. I immediately added a leather strap as a sword knot and have not had an issues since. Lanyards really work!

M

There is a reason sword knots were popular in groups which didn't require them

[Amanda M]

I wish we were close by. I'd have you try on my gauntlets because from the pics I've seen of you I believe we're pretty similar in size and build.

who?

Myself and the OP. Sorry I probably should have quoted something from earlier in the thread to clarify.

[Fearghus Macildubh]

I've been using the same sort of trigger as Nissan showed for around five years with no instances of finger smashing. That sort of trigger lets me mimic the loose grip I learned when starting out in basket hilted swords.
Shaping the rattan is important as well, a rasp is your friend.


Although the schiavona hilts from Darkwood look awesome and could tempt me to pick up a basket hilted sword, especially given my personna move to the Renaissance.

[BendSinister]

One thing that really helps keep a cross-hilt sword in the hand is the pommel. A large pommel disk will help keep the hand from slipping from the grip, it is acting as a "trigger". The pommel being used this way must be securely fastened to the rattan, there will be a lot of stress trying to tear it off. I have used rivets and chicago screws to hold a pommel onto the end of the rattan.

Another thing that I have found helpful is using a figure eight lanyard.
You loop it around the sword below the cross hilt and then up and around your hand and buckle it togeather. The lanyard holds the sword, and lets you relax your grip completely if you wish.

BS

[BNRichard]

Cass, I have some thoughts on this but I don't have time to type it all out. William has a occasional problem with this too.
Richard.

[raito]

I find the comment on pommels interesting, as I've really never had a pommel on any of my swords, ever, in more than 30 years. And I've never had a problem with the lack of a pommel being why a sword slips my grip.

As for the rules, they're definitely against basketless swords.

Is the basket part of the weapon? If so, then block with it all you want, and get the advantage over your gauntlet-wearing brethren.

Drop your sword? Basketman has a safety problem, and we must stop and let him recover. Gauntletman (if he has another weapon) can be beaten mercilessly.

And I hate that I see guys with baskets constantly pulling their hands out of them and doing stuff during battles. If I slipped off my gauntlet, the marshals would be all over me.

[J.G.Elmslie]

given your comment about cramping when gripping, part of the issue might actually be that you're sometimes clenching it too tight.

ideally, I'd argue (from a WMA point of view, not SCA) that the ideal grip should be quite loose and relaxed, holding the weapon solely with thumb and forefinger in a ring around the hilt, and the trailing fingers relaxed.

you use the open fingers to then snap the grip closed, to fulcrum the blade into impact, or to snap the blade to stop to pull the strike.

thickness of the grip is also esential - too thin, it'll be hard to hold comfortably - the notable exception to that is the tail on certain german longsword types, particularly with wheel pommels, which can be wasp-like narrow things. too thick is even more useless however.

have you considered taking the grip down to a taper, then taking another 1-2mm thickness off, doing a thin cord, and then wrapping in leather with risers to ensure secure finger placement? - two photos of risers on hilts, one on a single-handed, and one on hand and a half for you there that might inspire you.

[benz72]

I find the comment on pommels interesting, as I've really never had a pommel on any of my swords, ever, in more than 30 years. And I've never had a problem with the lack of a pommel being why a sword slips my grip.

As for the rules, they're definitely against basketless swords.

Is the basket part of the weapon? If so, then block with it all you want, and get the advantage over your gauntlet-wearing brethren.

Drop your sword? Basketman has a safety problem, and we must stop and let him recover. Gauntletman (if he has another weapon) can be beaten mercilessly.

And I hate that I see guys with baskets constantly pulling their hands out of them and doing stuff during battles. If I slipped off my gauntlet, the marshals would be all over me.

When the rules allow a hand to be incapacitated by striking the basket hilt protecting it this preference for them will be rapidly reevaluated.

[InsaneIrish]

When the rules allow a hand to be incapacitated by striking the basket hilt protecting it this preference for them will be rapidly reevaluated.

The rules don't allow the hand to be incapacitated by hitting a gauntlet either.

[lochinvar76]

True, you don't lose your arm when hit on the gauntlet but one feels far more secure in the saftey of their fingers when using a basket hilt.

[Nissan Maxima]

Off topic, but if this is true you need to get gauntlets made by Grettr the slow. You could juggle hand grenades in these and not worry about your fingers.

[benz72]

When the rules allow a hand to be incapacitated by striking the basket hilt protecting it this preference for them will be rapidly reevaluated.

The rules don't allow the hand to be incapacitated by hitting a gauntlet either.

An excellent point, and changing that issue would cause us to avoid hand blocking regardless of the type of hand protection used, which would be great. The point of the comment was to disincentivise the use of basket hilts since they are over-prevalent when compared to historical samples (one might claim over-represented to a ridiculous degree). There are probably better ways. Hopefully someone will suggest one...

[Ogedei]

If we (in the SCA) all moved from baskets to guantlets, would guantlets not be over represented then? Especially given the wide cultural expanse of the SCA.

[Benedek]

If we (in the SCA) all moved from baskets to guantlets, would guantlets not be over represented then? Especially given the wide cultural expanse of the SCA.

I don't think so. Gauntlets fit more into the SCA period than baskets do. Of course we'd also have to count in how many persona's wouldn't have used gaunts at all.

[Amanda M]

Someone could come up with a cool low profile option for them, I'm sure.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

On the baskethilt blocking - you could block with gauntlets, too - would be just as effective as far as stopping the blow. And I've seen guys with gauntlets do it.

Whether it SHOULD, well, that is a question each person answers for themselves - like "glance hits" that tick off a shield and still make solid contact, or even when to take a blow altogether.


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[Ogedei]

If we (in the SCA) all moved from baskets to guantlets, would guantlets not be over represented then? Especially given the wide cultural expanse of the SCA.

I don't think so. Gauntlets fit more into the SCA period than baskets do. Of course we'd also have to count in how many persona's wouldn't have used gaunts at all.

That was kinda my point LOTS of our personas wouldn't have had ANY hand protection.

I am not trying to make a comment on whether basket hilts are correct or not. Only that they are no more correct than guantlets for many personas.

The hand blocking issue is a seperate deal that I am not trying to address here.

And yes I am sure there could be some cool low profile stuff made. but when it can be made for $40 we will talk.

[InsaneIrish]

I don't think so. Gauntlets fit more into the SCA period than baskets do. Of course we'd also have to count in how many persona's wouldn't have used gaunts at all.

Ok, I see where you are coming from now. You are looking at Baskets as a "basket hilted sword" ala :



Which, as you say is very late period within the SCA.

I see basket hilts as safety equipment just like a bargrill on a helmet. One of those necessary items for SCA combat.

[Ogedei]

I see basket hilts as safety equipment just like a bargrill on a helmet. One of those necessary items for SCA combat.

Well at least two of us are on the same page.

This of course means blocking with them should be against the rules, in the same vein as raising your leg to allow the shot to land on your perfectly armored but non targetable knee.

It also means we would not be allowed to intentionally strike at the hands either. I know my basket gets hit all the time without me moving it.

[InsaneIrish]

Well at least two of us are on the same page.

This of course means blocking with them should be against the rules, in the same vein as raising your leg to allow the shot to land on your perfectly armored but non targetable knee.

It also means we would not be allowed to intentionally strike at the hands either. I know my basket gets hit all the time without me moving it.

Techincally, blocking with the baskethilt IS against the rules. Just like blocking with the gauntlet is. The hitch is INTENTIONALLY blocking with them. Incidental contact happens. I am left handed, I end up blocking a lot of leg shots with my basket. I am trying to block with the sword, but sometimes the shot gets low enough to hit the basket. Am I intentionally blocking with my hand? No, I am trying to get it with the sword.

[Ogedei]

Certainly.

But there are MANY fighters who block wraps by placing their hands behind their head, letting the wrap land on the basket.

(For example)

Now I am on the same side, incidental contact will occur and frankly I am not gonna be the guy who steps in to start saying what was incidental and what was not.

I guess SCA combat rules are not perfect

[Diglach Mac Cein]

I think I can picture the defense you describe (nobody around here does it from what I've seen).

Wanna cure them of putting their basket behind their head like that?

Fake the wrap, whack the arm, or go offside body.



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[Ulric]

Certainly.

But there are MANY fighters who block wraps by placing their hands behind their head, letting the wrap land on the basket.

Yep, or placing the basket right in front of their face- and leaving it there- to block thrusts

[Nissan Maxima]

Yep. I thrust people who do that REALLY hard in the basket hilt so they punch themselves in the face. And then I say."Nice block!"

[InsaneIrish]

Yep. I thrust people who do that REALLY hard in the basket hilt so they punch themselves in the face. And then I say."Nice block!"

LOL!

Yep, the old Iron Chicken defense!

The people that do that, usually have there forarm peeking up above their shield too. So, thrust into a molunay(sp?) right into the arm works as well.

[benz72]

Yep. I thrust people who do that REALLY hard in the basket hilt so they punch themselves in the face. And then I say."Nice block!"

Huh... I guess in theory one could trap that weapon with ones shield by pressing it. That would be a funny look.

[Jean Paul de Sens]

I think I can picture the defense you describe (nobody around here does it from what I've seen).

Wanna cure them of putting their basket behind their head like that?

Fake the wrap, whack the arm, or go offside body.



.

Good luck with that. The mechanics of dropping to block the back of the head and then recovering to block an offside body (ignoring the fact that if you block to the back of the head with the sword the shield is now available for other tasks) are well within most similar speeded combatants ability. What I mean by that is that if you and your opponent have similar hand and arm speed, he has a small enough distance that unless your fake is *SOOO* good that he turns and blocks, he'll probalby have enough time to block the fake wrap, and then recover to block the offside body.

JP

[Diglach Mac Cein]

True....

Personally, if they through their hand behind their head the block a wrap, I'll just whack 'em in the arm or rib - but I'm a lefty...


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[Jr]

Yep. I thrust people who do that REALLY hard in the basket hilt so they punch themselves in the face. And then I say."Nice block!"

XD lol i cracked up in the middle of my class

[InsaneIrish]

True....

Personally, if they through their hand behind their head the block a wrap, I'll just whack 'em in the arm or rib - but I'm a lefty...


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Once again as JP says, your fake would have to be REALLY good to get them to drop that deep long enough for you to recover your fake, back up, and hit them in the arm. Most lefty wraps that land that deep require you to be almost in their shorts to throw around their defenses.

I too, am a lefty.

[Ogedei]

Good luck with that. The mechanics of dropping to block the back of the head and then recovering to block an offside body (ignoring the fact that if you block to the back of the head with the sword the shield is now available for other tasks) are well within most similar speeded combatants ability. What I mean by that is that if you and your opponent have similar hand and arm speed, he has a small enough distance that unless your fake is *SOOO* good that he turns and blocks, he'll probalby have enough time to block the fake wrap, and then recover to block the offside body.

JP

Thanks JP. That is pretty much my assesment. And really at the end of the day if you can throw your fake well enough so they think it is coming in DEEP DEEP DEEP and react accordingly, you can get them off body. But as you said I don't think this particular block puts them that out of position.

I know up here in An Tir I have seen the block a lot, or at least I used too, maybe I travelled more? I know there are/were guys who I have seen block with it that have that little white stripe around their waist. Certainly this dosen't mean I can never fake them, but it does mean that a good fighter who utilizes it isn't gonna just be magically faked and hit. Thinking so is arrogant and fool hardy.

Maybe in fact he's waiting for you to fake the wrap so he can fake the block and then MAKE YOU PAY when you try and MAKE HIM PAY!

And to finish off my comments, it's not as if that block remains in position waiting waiting waiting for the shot to come in. It's a fluid block.

Og.