How to fix a Rhino (SCA).

For those of us who wish to talk about the many styles and facets of recreating Medieval armed combat.
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Maeryk
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Post by Maeryk »

Animal Weretiger wrote:Look, all I know is a very simple thing. We get to do a real cool thing. We get to express things like honor and courage. There are precious few of those opportunities in real life. Why act like a weasel ball shooter when you can stand up and fight like a man? Look, I'm not trying to belabor a point, you've said you agree, we're not fighting about that anymore. All I[m saying is that there are things you can do on the battlefield that legal or not, just arent cool. Pissy little rules lawyers and snivelers can say 'it's legal' ad do their little dance all they like. Still dont make you a winner if you win dishonorably. It's just as bad as rhinoing.


Block your junk. You won't ever have an issue.
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Post by Leo Medii »

Dilan, that was awesome.
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Post by Francisco Lopez de Leon »

Animal Weretiger wrote:Look, all I know is a very simple thing. We get to do a real cool thing. We get to express things like honor and courage. There are precious few of those opportunities in real life. Why act like a weasel ball shooter when you can stand up and fight like a man? Look, I'm not trying to belabor a point, you've said you agree, we're not fighting about that anymore. All I[m saying is that there are things you can do on the battlefield that legal or not, just arent cool. Pissy little rules lawyers and snivelers can say 'it's legal' ad do their little dance all they like. Still dont make you a winner if you win dishonorably. It's just as bad as rhinoing.


*nod* i still don't think the shot's dishonourable. I think it's LESS COUTH than other options, which makes the other options preferable.

But again, please in future think about HOW you convey your argument, as you lose moral high ground if you come off as a Neanderthal jock with a sense of penis-worship.
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Post by Francisco Lopez de Leon »

Leo Medii wrote:Dilan, that was awesome.


+1
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Post by wilmot »

"But again, please in future think about HOW you convey your argument, as you lose moral high ground if you come off as a Neanderthal jock with a sense of penis-worship. "

But atleast he does not use his sword like a penis by thrusting between his legs, just saying.

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Post by Amanda M »

wilmot wrote:"But again, please in future think about HOW you convey your argument, as you lose moral high ground if you come off as a Neanderthal jock with a sense of penis-worship. "

But atleast he does not use his sword like a penis by thrusting between his legs, just saying.

Ronald


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Post by Leo Medii »

But atleast he does not use his sword like a penis by thrusting between his legs, just saying.


Oh my God...that is NOT the move I'm thinking of where the person jams the sword between their own legs and stabs the opponent?!!!!!!?!?!??!??!

Please....please NO!!!!!

There is a knight in my barony that does that and it is STUPID. I will even admit to flat out telling him NO when he got me with it on principle.

No....NOOOOooooOOOoOooOooOoooo.....not that!
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Post by Scott »

About that thrusting dick shot....

Since our assumed armour standard is that we are wearing a maille halburk, doesn't this shot mean that it has to go through two layers of the user's own maille before it hits his opponent? Or, maybe they are just so good that they can slip it through the riding slits in the maille?
Either way, do you really think that anyone would willingly place a sharp blade right next to their own jewels like that? No, this is purely an SCAism, and a cheesy one, at that.

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Post by Scott »

Instead of being upset at the guy who doesn't take your shot, why not thank him for the gift he has given you. He has given you the gift of being able to hit him again! :D

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Post by Nissan Maxima »

Leo Medii wrote:
But atleast he does not use his sword like a penis by thrusting between his legs, just saying.


Oh my God...that is NOT the move I'm thinking of where the person jams the sword between their own legs and stabs the opponent?!!!!!!?!?!??!??!

Please....please NO!!!!!

There is a knight in my barony that does that and it is STUPID. I will even admit to flat out telling him NO when he got me with it on principle.

No....NOOOOooooOOOoOooOooOoooo.....not that!


Hehehe. I love that shot.

I like to do it to people who are kneeling in front of me and then say, "Oh sorry baby. Did I get any in your hair?"
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Post by Francisco Lopez de Leon »

Nissan Maxima wrote:
Leo Medii wrote:
But atleast he does not use his sword like a penis by thrusting between his legs, just saying.


Oh my God...that is NOT the move I'm thinking of where the person jams the sword between their own legs and stabs the opponent?!!!!!!?!?!??!??!

Please....please NO!!!!!

There is a knight in my barony that does that and it is STUPID. I will even admit to flat out telling him NO when he got me with it on principle.

No....NOOOOooooOOOoOooOooOoooo.....not that!


Hehehe. I love that shot.

I like to do it to people who are kneeling in front of me and then say, "Oh sorry baby. Did I get any in your hair?"


OK... I have never used it against a kneeling foe. I have, in fact, not used it yet, outside of practice- but have practiced it extensively in order to be able to deliver it accurately and with control should I need it...

And yes, i can deliver it through a mail shirt (I've been fighting in a heavy butted thing that makes me want to cry).

As for the snappy one liner afterwards... I am both apalled and hugely entertained, Nissan... which is a good and bad reflection on me, all at once. Impressive, Nissan.
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Post by Maeryk »

Have you ever _met_ Nissan?

If that's apalling.. uhh.. I reccomend you don't. You'd probably explode. :)
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Post by Leo Medii »

And you'd get it in your hair....
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Post by Francisco Lopez de Leon »

ROFL. *OH GOD, THE LAUGHTER, IT HURTS*
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Post by Saritor »

Leo Medii wrote:And you'd get it in your hair....


At least Nissan's not aiming for the eyes.
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Post by herrhauptmann »

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:
OK... I have never used it against a kneeling foe. I have, in fact, not used it yet, outside of practice- but have practiced it extensively in order to be able to deliver it accurately and with control should I need it...

And yes, i can deliver it through a mail shirt (I've been fighting in a heavy butted thing that makes me want to cry).

As for the snappy one liner afterwards... I am both apalled and hugely entertained, Nissan... which is a good and bad reflection on me, all at once. Impressive, Nissan.

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread, their counter to the thrusting dick.
Now my shield is probably too tall for me to use the counter against all but the taller fighters in my shire, but I'm going to try it anyway.
Get my shield or sword under thrusters sword, and lift him up by his groin. Probably will try and use my own sword for it, so I can my shield for blocking.
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Post by Vlasta »

Thorvaldr Skegglauss wrote:I was told later he had full hockey pads on under his armour ...... doesn't explain the 3 really big dents I saw appear in the helm but that is ok.

Thorvaldr


Actually I've noted over the years that blows that dent a helm tend to be ones that "feel" light to the wearers. It turns out that the bending of the metal absorbed most of the kinetic energy of the blow and they really didn't feel it. Its happened with all sorts of folks I've fought over the years. YMMV.

One of the best techniques I've ever heard of to give someone a hint was posed by a Knight I much respect. He calls a hold and first asks the fighter if he felt the blow. He next asks a Marshal to tell him where he saw the blow land. Lastly he will ask the Marshal to check his sword for "mushing", etc. The idea here is to give the opponent a hint that maybe he should have taken the blow and also give them time to think about it while third parties are also weighing in. His point is also to maybe find out that maybe he DIDN'T hit them where and how hard he thought. His idea is that it gives the opponent a graceful way to think "Oh, maybe I should count that shot."
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Post by Kilkenny »

RatangeI wrote:I understand I've never been a fighter so perhaps my view is skewed but having cared for my dog,my sons and my dog brothers for years I have to comment about this "fix"


1. An entire line of athletic equipment has been designed dedicated to the entire issue of hitting someone in the "nuts" (assuming that no females EVER rhinohide.) If such a equipment line exists to prevent damage how can someone knowingly endanger someone else by doing that on purpose? This is a hobby....a game....an advocation.....to potentially harm someone in a real life way over a hobby is assinine.

2. For a member of group who so specifically aligns itself with honor and chivalry to openly, honestly, and mindlessly tout the decision to act in such a dushonorable manner is pathetic. Admittedly I'm "only a tuchux" but I would expect each and every one of our dogs to treat each of the people they face with the very MINIMAL of respect. You know the one we teach children "do unto others as you would have done to you" For a man to say it is permittable, even preferable to treat an opponant with less honor and common courtsey than they would expect for themselves is crap. It is pathetic to hide behind an act my SIX year old can tell you is a bullshit move and call it "good" because it is a legal target and it meets your subjective opinion of what is due to them

Finally... not all men have trained their balls to run screaming for cover like an anorexic in a windstorm at the first sign of danger. Maybe you can teach a class or something.


.
.
.


Ratty - We armour our heads too, to protect our brains from injury. Our torsos to protect all the internal organs. Elbows and knees to protect them. All can be injured in ways that endanger someone.

It makes picking out any one particular body part and making it the subject of extra special fuss seem a bit peculiar.

And the insults ? Off target. They don't make any point that you want to make. Not any more from you than from Animal.

Debate doesn't involve insults. Persuasion doesn't involve insults. Insults only lead to hard feelings and people locking in to their positions and refusing to consider what the insulter has to say.

It's destructive, not constructive.
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Post by Kilkenny »

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:
Vladimir wrote:
Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote: It's borderline impossible to INJURE someone (on purpose) wearing legal SCA armor hitting them in an SCA legal location - at least with a single handed broadsword.


Please define injure.

I know several people who have received cracked or broken bones in areas the SCA does not require covered. Their armour was SCA legal, but those areas were still unprotected.


I would assume forearm and or rib. I think people who don't wear vambraces are nuts - and I don't even target forearms. I did think about some cases of separated/cracked/broken ribs both those are usually from spear shots. You can hit "too hard" with a two handed spear shot if you get some momentum going... it's not easy though.

Which is why I did specify "single handed broadsword"... and while I do think it's POSSIBLE to suffer minor fractures in unarmored locations with a single handed weapon - it's far from common. Which is why I weaseled with "borderline" impossible.

So, technically, if a big strong guy with a stout stick really tried to crack someone's forearm they could do it (with the "bad guy" actively defending).

I would not worry about the poor unarmored forearms of some one who has refused a lighter shot. But that's just me.


To my knowledge I've broken two people's arm. In neither case did I do anything unusual, just throwing my normal shots. One fellow really did do it to himself by blocking with his shield - make that shield ARM, he didn't have his shield on. The other was a fellow in a melee, nothing special, just my sword hit his forearm.

In my opinion, we're incredibly lucky that we have not very seriously injured anyone yet.
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Post by Kilkenny »

Vlasta wrote:
Thorvaldr Skegglauss wrote:I was told later he had full hockey pads on under his armour ...... doesn't explain the 3 really big dents I saw appear in the helm but that is ok.

Thorvaldr


Actually I've noted over the years that blows that dent a helm tend to be ones that "feel" light to the wearers. It turns out that the bending of the metal absorbed most of the kinetic energy of the blow and they really didn't feel it. Its happened with all sorts of folks I've fought over the years. YMMV.

One of the best techniques I've ever heard of to give someone a hint was posed by a Knight I much respect. He calls a hold and first asks the fighter if he felt the blow. He next asks a Marshal to tell him where he saw the blow land. Lastly he will ask the Marshal to check his sword for "mushing", etc. The idea here is to give the opponent a hint that maybe he should have taken the blow and also give them time to think about it while third parties are also weighing in. His point is also to maybe find out that maybe he DIDN'T hit them where and how hard he thought. His idea is that it gives the opponent a graceful way to think "Oh, maybe I should count that shot."


This falls in line with something I try to teach my squires. When you are fighting and a blow is not taken, there are two questions you can ask yourself right away (1) Why didn't he take that ? or (2) Why wasn't that blow good ?

The difference may be subtle, but it is important. The first assumes the other fellow is responsible, the second does not.

If your first question is "why wasn't that good?" your answer may come from your side of the equation, before you ever get to his side of the equation.
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Post by Cisco »

You know...I think there are basically three kinds of situations where a shot doesn't get taken that the thrower thinks should be.

#1) There is a legitimate problem. Armor bunched, or it is more protective than the wearer thought, or the stick broomed, or it was low and the thrower thought it was a good leg (knee vs. thigh). These can usually be addressed.

#2) There is a legitimate difference in calibration. For example, most from Glen Abhenn have a different calibration than those from the West. Again, these can be addressed (and usually are most of the time before a shot is thrown, I've found).

These top two are legitimate reasons and can usually be discussed by reasonable people.

I think the big thing we are talking about is #3) Angus MacAngus* the warrior scot-poet-ninja-pirate who is simply too good to receive a blow from you. Ever. You are from a kingdom he doesn't like? Your shot isn't good enough. You are fighting him in a tournament that he has decided he's going to win? "Oww...light." No leaves or at least a white belt? Nope, you couldn't possibly...

* I used that as a made up name as I don't know anyone named that. Any similarity is entirely coincidental. :)
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Post by Jess »

I just balk at trying to shame a rhino into taking a blow with talk.
The idea just disgusts me. I feel revulsion. If you can do it, great.

But I'd rather just hit the guy repeatedly. At least that way, I'm getting some practice out of it.
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Post by Maeryk »

Talking probably won't do any good with an honest to god "my ego is stronger than anything you can throw at me" rhino, Jess.

But, it can do a lot for people who are simply not taking shots _that day_ due to something they don't realize.

those people are on their way to a reputation for rhinoing.. and I've seen it where nobody says anything, and then they draw some guy who CAN hit like a freight train, and comes out of the blocks swinging for the trees, because they "heard" this guy was numb.. when it's just an armor issue or something.
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Post by Aidan MacKay »

Cisco wrote:I think the big thing we are talking about is #3) Angus MacAngus* the warrior scot-poet-ninja-pirate who is simply too good to receive a blow from you. Ever. You are from a kingdom he doesn't like? Your shot isn't good enough. You are fighting him in a tournament that he has decided he's going to win? "Oww...light." No leaves or at least a white belt? Nope, you couldn't possibly...

* I used that as a made up name as I don't know anyone named that. Any similarity is entirely coincidental. :)


that is really Cisco's alter ego just in case anyone was wondering...

nuthin but love man! :D :D :D :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Post by carlyle »

Cisco wrote:...I used that as a made up name as I don't know anyone named that. Any similarity is entirely coincidental. :)

Isn't that kind of the point, though? Can you honestly put a real name to this? I don't disagree that some fighters are thicker than others (and in at least one case, off the scale), and many fighters sometimes go through "thick" phases; but in over three decades, I've personally not run into anyone who was the kind of consistent, unrepentent d!ck characterized by this and other posts.

Aidan MacKay wrote:that is really Cisco's alter ego just in case anyone was wondering...

Then it must be the alter ego who keeps running into the mythical construct being bandied about ;). This is easy to flog and rail against, because being the strawman that it is, there is no one out there to defend the counter position. In the absence of real offence, though, it's an empty exercise -- you might feel better after venting, but at the end of the day, nothing has been solved and no one's behavior will have changed.

Respectfully,

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Post by Baron Alcyoneus »

Leo Medii wrote:And you'd get it in your hair....


"He wore a rattan necklace!!!" ;)
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Post by Baron Alcyoneus »

Jess wrote:I just balk at trying to shame a rhino into taking a blow with talk.
The idea just disgusts me. I feel revulsion. If you can do it, great.

But I'd rather just hit the guy repeatedly. At least that way, I'm getting some practice out of it.


I've known people that will try to talk others into taking a shot that probably wasn't good too...

I don't care for that either.
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Post by Violen »

How about this:

Lets say you have 10 fighters at your practice. the Rhino is local, and a known problem.

For at least 30 minutes every practice, when he pairs up with someone, have everyone stop fighting and watch the bout. Always offer to make it best of three.


Then have someone else step up to fight him.

Do this for a while when everyone is watching.

It may take a few months to fix, but be it his armor, his ego, or his ignorance, i bet a good group of trusting fighters could fix it.


If not, have them all ask him to not come back.


I say this because our practices are so small right now that i doubt a Rhino could get away with his behavior for very long, because of the scrutiny of the group.


Building him up with positive reinforcement while critiquing him wouldn't hurt either.
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Post by Kilkenny »

carlyle wrote:
Cisco wrote:...I used that as a made up name as I don't know anyone named that. Any similarity is entirely coincidental. :)

Isn't that kind of the point, though? Can you honestly put a real name to this? I don't disagree that some fighters are thicker than others (and in at least one case, off the scale), and many fighters sometimes go through "thick" phases; but in over three decades, I've personally not run into anyone who was the kind of consistent, unrepentent d!ck characterized by this and other posts.

Aidan MacKay wrote:that is really Cisco's alter ego just in case anyone was wondering...

Then it must be the alter ego who keeps running into the mythical construct being bandied about ;). This is easy to flog and rail against, because being the strawman that it is, there is no one out there to defend the counter position. In the absence of real offence, though, it's an empty exercise -- you might feel better after venting, but at the end of the day, nothing has been solved and no one's behavior will have changed.

Respectfully,

Alfred of Carlyle


well now. It's my experience that there are people who have a very difficult time recognizing what constitutes a good blow. I described my experience with one fellow, whom I am inclined to believe really was genetically numb. I hit him with a shot that could have got me in trouble had it been on someone with a pain threshhold, and got told it was light. He did drop out not very long after that incident.

I know of another fellow who isn't too bad in practice about acknowledging blows, but in tournaments to get a leg blow acknowledged you pretty much need to take the leg out from under him. I don't think he intentionally ignores the blows, I believe he's incapable of recognizing what is happening to him when he's very focused on trying to hit you.

I've known a number of people who have advocated refusing to take a blow from someone they don't think is accepting theirs. In all cases, these have been people who did not throw with anything like consistent authority, but were willing to start cheating as soon as they decided their opponent was. Even though the problem was more likely to be them not throwing good shots than an opponent not taking good shots.

I can still recall, with embarrassment, a situation in which I got blasted by a newbie in a tournament situation and I let the voice tell me that he couldn't have done that... I blew that call more badly than I blew the block that led to it.

So, reality lies somewhere between the mythical land in which no one cheats and the equally mythical land in which "cheaters" are really, intentionally cheating, all of the time and in all instances.

Some times the apparent cheat absolutely is cheating. Other times, it may be an armour problem, or genetic, or a matter of focus. And probably most of the time, it's a problem with blow delivery, from bad mechanics to bad rattan to bad footing - whatever.

The real thing to remember in this whole area of consideration is that we are *all* on our honor to do the right thing in the lists. Including the people we're suspecting of not doing so. So start by presuming that your opponent is an honorable one and work from there. What did I do wrong on that shot, is my sword sound, am I more tired than I realized, did I miss, did he block it or dodge it, etc.

The conclusion "he blew that shot off" can be reached eventually - but really, it should be the last option at the end of a long checklist.
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Post by Aaron »

Scott wrote:Instead of being upset at the guy who doesn't take your shot, why not thank him for the gift he has given you. He has given you the gift of being able to hit him again! :D

- Scott


Well said.
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Post by Dante di Pietro »

carlyle wrote:Can you honestly put a real name to this?


Yup, I can. Stuff that can't be explained away, like ignoring thrusts to the face that rock their head back (in rapier). Oh well.

I look at it from the perspective that not all wounds have stopping power, so some landed shots having no effect should be expected and accounted for. If I'm defending myself effectively, I should still be safe even if a shot I expect to stop my opponent doesn't do the job.
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Post by TakedaSanjuichiro »

I've seen quite alot of talk about the armor factorbeing a contributor to the perception of rhinoing... (ie the guy has too much armor/padding, does not feel it)

Maybe this is a good reason to exaine the role of historical armors in the SCA better? Some did protect a heck of alot better and needed to be hit with more deliberation or in less armored locations. I know by current rules this is not considered, what are people's thoughts about it being looked into?

Note I am not saying going to some hard to figure out system of armor as worn or counted blows or anything like that, more of a by your honesty. I mean I can;t be the only one with the experiance of internal dialog "I'm gonna take that, but if this was for real I don;t think I would have noticed. vs. Damn that was solid!" (not excessive, just a well contected and well powered shot) After all it is an honor system, I see no real difference, and frankly I think I would enjoy the challenge of having to plan more effective attacks against someone in a good 14th century mafia kit, or a good 15th cenury white harness, than the stick and shield flailing fest that predominates... But then again I do greatsword or polearm so I am predjudiced :)

Just a thought

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Post by Nissan Maxima »

The point is that we cannot control other people's behavior, so discussions of what to do about these behaviors are nothing but mental masturbation. It may feel good but produces nothing.

We can only control our reactions and our own behavior.

I don't need to worry about whether someone takes my shots or not. I do need to make sure I give the best I can. Thats up to me. The rest I give away.
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Ewan
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Post by Ewan »

Nissan Maxima wrote:The point is that we cannot control other people's behavior, so discussions of what to do about these behaviors are nothing but mental masturbation. It may feel good but produces nothing.

We can only control our reactions and our own behavior.

I don't need to worry about whether someone takes my shots or not. I do need to make sure I give the best I can. Thats up to me. The rest I give away.


These are wise words.
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kaiö
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Post by kaiö »

Nissan Maxima wrote:The point is that we cannot control other people's behavior


I disagree with that premise. Behavior can be controlled with methods like positive/negative reinforcement and punishment. Think of a manager who wants to stop his employees from arriving late and institutes a zero-tolerance policy.

Therefore a discussion on the best reinforcement strategy or how to best administer punishment, physical or otherwise, can be more than mental masturbation.
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