How to fix a Rhino (SCA).

[Baron Alcyoneus]

That doesn't keep them from being late, that just punishes them if they are.

[Leo Medii]

I've seen quite alot of talk about the armor factorbeing a contributor to the perception of rhinoing... (ie the guy has too much armor/padding, does not feel it)

Maybe this is a good reason to exaine the role of historical armors in the SCA better? Some did protect a heck of alot better and needed to be hit with more deliberation or in less armored locations. I know by current rules this is not considered, what are people's thoughts about it being looked into?

Note I am not saying going to some hard to figure out system of armor as worn or counted blows or anything like that, more of a by your honesty. I mean I can;t be the only one with the experiance of internal dialog "I'm gonna take that, but if this was for real I don;t think I would have noticed. vs. Damn that was solid!" (not excessive, just a well contected and well powered shot) After all it is an honor system, I see no real difference, and frankly I think I would enjoy the challenge of having to plan more effective attacks against someone in a good 14th century mafia kit, or a good 15th cenury white harness, than the stick and shield flailing fest that predominates... But then again I do greatsword or polearm so I am predjudiced

Just a thought

-Takeda

I was once told by an opponent that his shot was good, but because I had armor on I didn't feel it.

At the time, it seemed like the most retarded thing I had ever heard.

Now that I think about it, it still is....

[kaiö]

That doesn't keep them from being late, that just punishes them if they are.

Which with time will reduce employee lateness.

[DELETEMYACCOUNT]

Gavin Kilkenny wrote :
"Ratty - We armour our heads too, to protect our brains from injury. Our torsos to protect all the internal organs. Elbows and knees to protect them. All can be injured in ways that endanger someone.

It makes picking out any one particular body part and making it the subject of extra special fuss seem a bit peculiar.

And the insults ? Off target. They don't make any point that you want to make. Not any more from you than from Animal.

Debate doesn't involve insults. Persuasion doesn't involve insults. Insults only lead to hard feelings and people locking in to their positions and refusing to consider what the insulter has to say.

It's destructive, not constructive."

gavin let me assure you. You dont have to instruct Ratty. She's got a college degree in English and knows full well what she's saying and intended to say and exactly how she intended to say it to express her point of view. I daresay she[s smarter than you are.
Read her posts and my posts again and this time look at it from the point of view of contempt for someone expressing a proclivity for base cowardly acts. Whatever your opinion of those acts might be, this is ours. You dont have to like it or agree with it but dont presume that either one of us doesnt know exactly how to express ourselves. Such acts in our opinion deserve contempt and people that perform such acts deserve the same contempt. Its a public forum and you're just as welcome to your opinion whatever.

[RatangeI]

Gavin.....

I'm not as think as you dumb I am.

[Benjamin de Hatfield]

The point is that we cannot control other people's behavior

I disagree with that premise. Behavior can be controlled with methods like positive/negative reinforcement and punishment. Think of a manager who wants to stop his employees from arriving late and institutes a zero-tolerance policy.

Therefore a discussion on the best reinforcement strategy or how to best administer punishment, physical or otherwise, can be more than mental masturbation.

I disagree with your premise. Positive/negative reinforcement and punishment are are thinks that should only be used by someone in a mentor, guardian, or supervisory role.

Using it only people of the same station without the proper boundaries really just makes the giver of this "reinforcement strategy" seem like a condescending douchenozzle.

It is not one fighter's place to call out another fighter for blowing off shots (whether actual or perceived); much like in your employee scenario it would not be the place of another employee to call-out their peer for being late. If it upsets, present it to a person of management and be done with it.

-Ramius

[Nissan Maxima]

The point is that we cannot control other people's behavior

I disagree with that premise. Behavior can be controlled with methods like positive/negative reinforcement and punishment. Think of a manager who wants to stop his employees from arriving late and institutes a zero-tolerance policy.

Therefore a discussion on the best reinforcement strategy or how to best administer punishment, physical or otherwise, can be more than mental masturbation.

Ok. let me put this another way.




I throw a shot. Some beeyutiful thing I have worked up to lay the smack down on all foolish enought to stand against me. I have made sure my sword is not franged up. My body mechanics are sound. My timing is zen -like. My hair is perfect.

Over these things I have dominion.

The blow lands...

Now it is solely the other guys responsibility. I can or should have no expectation of outcome.

Expectation is the death of serenity.

It is the single most salient aspect of this stupid game that the guy who loses gets to decide he is beat. I can't do it for him. I am happy to give him another try. If I lose a pretend fight because he judges my shot inadequate, or just doesn't choose to accept it for whatever reason, what exactly is it that I have lost?

If I talk him to death, or someone else gives him a talkin to, what exactly have I won? And at what cost to the game?

There is not a victory possible in this game that is worth having that conversation.

[TakedaSanjuichiro]

I was once told by an opponent that his shot was good, but because I had armor on I didn't feel it.

At the time, it seemed like the most retarded thing I had ever heard.
Now that I think about it, it still is....

I think I did not make myself clear... Like now, the person who decides a shot good or not would be the person receiving. I am speaking more about doing away with the "no matter what your wearing, your still wearing chain and open faced helm" If your wearing a white harness, or a pretty much full late 13th century rig, you judge based on what you feel... not what you think it would have felt like if you had been wearing padding chain and leather...

If your not feeling that much through that armor - well, it's doing the job it was intended to do Thsi would not solve the problem of those who shrug off blows they should take, but people who are wearing solid kits would be rewarded for wearing solid kits. Might elimnate some of the guesswork though... I duno about others, but I never have worn only chain with padding to compaire my armor to

I think the moment the person doing the hitting has the final word in wither it was good or not will be a sad day.

-Takeda

[kaiö]

The point is that we cannot control other people's behavior

I disagree with that premise. Behavior can be controlled with methods like positive/negative reinforcement and punishment. Think of a manager who wants to stop his employees from arriving late and institutes a zero-tolerance policy.

Therefore a discussion on the best reinforcement strategy or how to best administer punishment, physical or otherwise, can be more than mental masturbation.

I disagree with your premise. Positive/negative reinforcement and punishment are are thinks that should only be used by someone in a mentor, guardian, or supervisory role.

Using it only people of the same station without the proper boundaries really just makes the giver of this "reinforcement strategy" seem like a condescending douchenozzle.

It is not one fighter's place to call out another fighter for blowing off shots (whether actual or perceived); much like in your employee scenario it would not be the place of another employee to call-out their peer for being late. If it upsets, present it to a person of management and be done with it.

-Ramius

Your peers can also play an important role in behavior modification. A group shunning a rude and obnoxious person is an obvious example. In any case, I don't think you understood my premise. Whether or not reinforcement, punishment etc. should or shouldn't be administered is irrelevant, the premise was that discussing it is productive.

[kaiö]

The point is that we cannot control other people's behavior

I disagree with that premise. Behavior can be controlled with methods like positive/negative reinforcement and punishment. Think of a manager who wants to stop his employees from arriving late and institutes a zero-tolerance policy.

Therefore a discussion on the best reinforcement strategy or how to best administer punishment, physical or otherwise, can be more than mental masturbation.

Ok. let me put this another way.




I throw a shot. Some beeyutiful thing I have worked up to lay the smack down on all foolish enought to stand against me. I have made sure my sword is not franged up. My body mechanics are sound. My timing is zen -like. My hair is perfect.

Over these things I have dominion.

The blow lands...

Now it is solely the other guys responsibility. I can or should have no expectation of outcome.

Expectation is the death of serenity.

It is the single most salient aspect of this stupid game that the guy who loses gets to decide he is beat. I can't do it for him. I am happy to give him another try. If I lose a pretend fight because he judges my shot inadequate, or just doesn't choose to accept it for whatever reason, what exactly is it that I have lost?

If I talk him to death, or someone else gives him a talkin to, what exactly have I won? And at what cost to the game?

There is not a victory possible in this game that is worth having that conversation.

I see what you mean. Imagine that you hit them, with something you consider to be undoubtedly good, and he shrugs it off. As you prepare to lay out an assault on him the likes of which he has never seen, he hits you. Hard. Enough to injure you in some way.

Then what?

[Nissan Maxima]

I don't consider anything to be "undoubtedly good". its not mine to consider. I do like to hit people really really hard though, so lets say that is my plan in this situation... Who am I kidding? Thats always my plan.

And I could get injured at anytime. So what? I got LASIK surgery done on my eyebones a few years ago and it screwed up my fighting because I discoverered that people were trying to hit me with sticks! Outragous! I have been seriously injured in this game. What difference would it make if it happened after someone did not accept my shot as telling? Would it be better if I had whiffed first?

I don't get why it would matter.

As to social pressure like shunning, lets do a thought experiement.

They are willing to cheat at a game( so you think), but are going to care that you don't sit with them at lunch?

Don't get me wrong, if you don't wanna socialize with someone, you shouldn't. Theres lots of people in this game I wouldn't piss on if they was on fire.

[Jess]

Forget the hypothetical. I'm interested in something that actually happened. I'm not interested in that freak denting or brooming or armor issue.

I want to know:

Have any of you solved anything by talking with a douchebag rhino who intentionally, repeatedly, obviously shrugs?

Because, I can't imagine it would help in those cases, since I think it's a serious character deficiency and I don't really believe people ever change. But I'm ready to be persuaded otherwise. In my hierarchy of prefered problem solving skills, talking is always first. Followed by throwing money at the problem (not very helpful here), then followed by employing force.

So tell me how you did it.

[Giraut]

If I meet a Rhino, I die.

Then I go away and have fun with other fighters.

[Dietrich von Stroheim]

There are no rhinos. Only people that beg to be hit harder. So I oblige them. My saber goes to 11, I dont have problems normally.

This is basically how I learned to play the game too. I've never met a 'rhino', and I am not convinced they actually exist in this sport.

I've met lots of people who like a good, stout shot in order to consider themselves bested, and I really enjoy competing against them because it forces me to deliver powerful, skillful shots with good technique.

Because of this way of thinking, I've never had bad feelings after a fight where I got stick on the other guy but nothing was good. The shot is only good if my opponent says it is good.

If I did run into this alleged rhino, I would simply dial up the power of my shots and/or alter targeting to squishier bits (no groin shots, that is just uncool), and trust in my defense and stamina to keep me alive long enough to either best or wear down the opponent.

And win or lose I'd have a fun time of it!

I really don't get why there is so much heartache and angst in this sport over not trusting your opponent to honestly decide if he is bested or not.

[Amanda M]

Cuz there are some unkillable guys out there. Just because you haven't met one doesn't mean they don't exist.

[DukeAvery]

I knew an order of chivalry, long ago, with the sack to look out for and deal with rhinos. It watched with a long view, but when it decided to move it was relentless and effective. I watched it shred and reform to 2 long time shot shuckers.

Diligence, communication, and objective analysis/observation are all indispensible for keeping a kingdom healthy; but if no one is ever willing to step forward and risk their precious reputation it will all be for naught.

The calibration we all learned in our sca authorizations is the same calibration we should be using in all our sca fights today.

Regards

Avery

[BendSinister]

Last year I was waiting for a tournament round to end. Two other fighters were standing beside me talking about the combattants on the field. "Well [-------] is going to win this one, he's such a rhino!" "Yeah I know, I can never beat him." I was waiting on the side to fight [------] so hell of a way to set him up. I discarded what I had heard, I fought him with my audacity and sword and came away knowing that he was no rhino. Yet, how many heard what these two idiots said and took it to heart? How much harm did they commit with their nasty words?

It is a rare creature the rhino, yet it is too often seen by us. Far too many times we are unable to accept that our blow was not good, did not land, was blocked, missed, or was whiffy. We blame the opponent, we allow our ego to get in the way. If we are doing our best, if we are being our best then we must allow the opponent to decide their fate, to accept or not accept the strike.

I am not saying that those who shrug off blows do not exist. Rather that they are "seen" far too often.

BS

[Baron Alcyoneus]

"Yeah I know, I can never beat him."


Yeah, maybe you are doing it wrong.

[BendSinister]

I did just fine it was idiot Number 2 who had the problem.

BS

[MJBlazek]

I have to disagree BS about the "Rhino Being a rare creature" a Rhino is anyone who comes up with a ridiculous excuse to not take a shot.

I once fought a man, I had a pole arm, he had S&S. for a good 5 minutes I axe chopped his head, over and over again, watched as the shock of the impact rocked his head and made him adjust his footing each time. He never called it good. After I grew tired he reached over and smacked me one, and I took it.

After the fight he came and told me that the shots were no good because they were hitting his sword before hitting his head.

That my friend is just as much a Rhino as someone who claims to not "feel" the shot.

MJ

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Yeah, sorry, if you block with your weapon or shield, and it still manages to hit you with authority, you didn't block it.

[BendSinister]

Yes making up excuses for not taking the blow is being a rhino. Yet that does not make the rhino more than rare. I have spoken on the subject of those who will litigate every blow delivered, they need to be re-educated and re-authorized. I too have faced these opponents, my response is to fight them till THEY are weeping, gasping wrecks, when I can fairly strike them till they must submit or be seen as complete fools in the eyes of the populance. Should they strike me with a true and correct blow, then it is I who falls. Such as it should be.

Making up excuses is not the way to follow the path of chivalry.

BS

[DELETEMYACCOUNT]

Well said.

[Cedric]

Forget the hypothetical. I'm interested in something that actually happened. I'm not interested in that freak denting or brooming or armor issue.

I want to know:

Have any of you solved anything by talking with a douchebag rhino who intentionally, repeatedly, obviously shrugs?

Because, I can't imagine it would help in those cases, since I think it's a serious character deficiency and I don't really believe people ever change. But I'm ready to be persuaded otherwise. In my hierarchy of prefered problem solving skills, talking is always first. Followed by throwing money at the problem (not very helpful here), then followed by employing force.

So tell me how you did it.

One of my good friends used to have this problem (we even showed him video of a demo where he got hit square in the head, then managed to talk himself into thinking it was a leg shot.. no wait, it was really an arm!). Talking to him didn't do much of anything... so we used rattan.

One day, we were sitting around after practice and he looked around and said "I don't know.. this just isn't as much fun as it used to be. When I first started fighting it was a lot of fun, but now it seems like every time I put armour on you guys are just trying to Crush me. "

We all looked at him in unison and said "Well, if you would take anything LESS..."

From that day on he has been totally reformed.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

"Light!" is short for "Please hit me harder!".

[Leo Medii]

"no matter what your wearing, your still wearing chain and open faced helm"

Takeda, I have come to the realization this is a myth. The SCA armor standard is not possible as written. The way we do fight is more akin to the civilian longsword taught in the latter centuries, with civilian garments and, at most, a padded leather coif. Only a small percentage of the SCA could, or would want to fight with the armor standard as presented as to what would be a disabling blow in that harness. I know this as fact from experience.

I have several harnesses, and am often complimented that my calibration is the same almost in each. Be it the cloth only leg harness of my 1248 Crusader, or the 15th C heavy jousting cuisses I have.

To be blunt, most of the time, it isn't armor that is the issue when it comes to calibration. It is inexperience, and also ego.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Avery-
Stop making sense. Some of us will become confused and pour our morning coffee onto our yarbles.
-V

[Fokke]

I think there is a difference between intentional rhinos and purposeful rhinos. I have been called a rhino and in one situation was able to talk it out , in the other the guy just walked away. I dont consider either rhinoing.
In the walk away situation I was fighting a knight back in that time period I had no arm or shoulder armor, at all, (this was in Meridies after all, why weigh myself down?) The knight swung and I swung with my bastard sword(dont remember if I hit him or not), and I recover from the shot and he is just standing there looking at me, finally he asks if I am going to take that and I am kinda of confused as I didnt know he made a connection so I respond with "Call what? Did you hit me?" He gets all pissy that he hit my upper arm and i reply that I am not wearing any armor there and didnt feel anything. He gets even more mad and tells me that is my first warning for rhino hiding and if he hears about any more he is taking me off the field and storms off. Rather annoyed I continue without incident against other fighters, but even three years later that fight bugs me.

Another was more recent and while i was wearing armor I got tapped with a glaive twice in the side, but there was absolutely no power and the fight continued. I lost the bout to a nice clean head shot. But right after the battle the marshal comes up and questions why i didnt take such very clean shots to the side. I explain, but i dont think he agreed with me, note that my opponent did not complain but did mention them. His knight comes up after the fight while we were talking about it and explains what he saw happen and from his vantage the shot was a push not a strike thus no power and proceeded to give his squire a lesson on strikes. And all was well with the world.

I rarely run into true rhinos. I have had several cases of me being nice and not gigging the crap out of someone unaware and then getting nailed from the guy because of it since he didnt awknowledge a light thrust to the face to kill him, ( I have had many more, "thanks for not gigging the crap out of me, Im dead"s though, thus why I continue to do it to most people). I do have issues when I crease someones armor and they dont call it sometimes and might or might not bring it to their attention. I am definately more in the if they dont call it, hit them harder camp.

Ha ha, funny story on the same note, at GW one year I found myself in a press against the wall and my polearm was trapped but my right hand had my throwing axe and was free of the press and found myself right up against the back of another team mate with the face of an enemy in front of him and in plain sight so I sat there along with about 4 other people and wailed on the guy. Probably 30 seconds of nonstop beating, I was hitting him directly on his face, he finally called himself dead, which was good because my arm was getting tired I had hit him so many times so quickly. I found it more amusing than annoying since none of us could do anything else anyway and it was the first and last time I used my throwing axe in melee combat.

[Kang]

Thank you all very much. This has been the most enlightening look into SCA fighting I have had so far.
I have been fighting for 17 years in boffer groups. Most of that in Belegarth/Dagorhir, wich are full contact combat groups. No armor, but full contact(sans headshots) including shield kicking, full shield body contact and grapling.
I have made all my own SCA gear and started fighting in this group also. I've been to 6 practices so far and have gotten several compliments on my skills. It turns out I am too nice and need to hit harder and I die from too light of shots, but I figure that's a good place to start. I wouldn't want to be the guy hurting everyone and not taking anything.
Many of you have surprised me with your attitudes toward Rhinos. I did not think I would find so many attitudes in line with my own about this issue.
I have always said that the only problem is that some folks need to be hit harder.
And only bitches bitch. Many of you put this in more flowery speach, but I am glad to see that so many of you take the same stance.
Thank you
K

[Giraut]

The knight swung and I swung with my bastard sword...and he is just standing there looking at me...I reply that I am not wearing any armor there and didnt feel anything. He gets even more mad and tells me that is my first warning for rhino hiding

a Knight ... calls a hold and first asks the fighter if he felt the blow. He next asks a Marshal to tell him where he saw the blow land. ...

Knights?
Sorry, but imho in those cases there weren't any Rhinos.
Is Knighthood that cheap today in SCA? Some knights don't accept it if their hits aren't taken?

[Leo Medii]

The knight swung and I swung with my bastard sword...and he is just standing there looking at me...I reply that I am not wearing any armor there and didnt feel anything. He gets even more mad and tells me that is my first warning for rhino hiding

a Knight ... calls a hold and first asks the fighter if he felt the blow. He next asks a Marshal to tell him where he saw the blow land. ...

Knights?
Sorry, but imho in those cases there weren't any Rhinos.
Is Knighthood that cheap today in SCA? Some knights don't accept it if their hits aren't taken?

No, that guy was just a dick. Plain and simple. Has nothing to do with his rank in the SCA, because I've seen/heard of this happening and the people weren't knights. They are just dicks.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

I'm amused when people expect perfectly consistant responses from person to person.

Even more amused when they expect perfectly consistant responses from the SAME person, time after time.


.

[Qwertypolk]

Wasn't planning to pipe up here, but something's been bugging me throughout the thread.

When watching videos, time after time I've seen comments on 'why didn't he die at [insert time here]? He hit him perfectly!'
Replies are always 'it's up to the person hit to judge. For all we know, it was just the angle that made it look good'

So why isn't the same attitude taken for rhinos? For all we know, the person ACTUALLY didn't think the shot was good. Just because it felt like you hit him hard, doesn't mean all the force was transferred. (less likely so, actually. If you felt your own shot, more energy has traveled up your own arm, and not into him)
Just as with stories of marshals speaking after fights. Just because they thought it was good, doesn't mean it is.

I accept there will be rhinos out there, but I just don't think they're as common as people think they are. They're also not breaking the rules, whereas, by hitting them with excessive force, you are.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

If they require you to hit them harder, and you do, how is that breaking the rules? In theory, if there is no such thing as a rhino, there is no such thing as excessive force.


And as you can tell from reading here - the definition of rhino can vary widely. As can the response to their actions.


.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

So far I know I have run into at least ONE rhino in the SCA. How do I know? Because after walking him at least 8 ft past the boundary, when I went to go sit down, he headed back out because "my shield basket was in his grill" so it wasn't legal, and he wasn't dead. Rhinos are the guys who will find some excuse to convince themselves it wasn't good. What really irked me was that a marshall was standing 3 ft away, heard this, and let the guy walk back out there. If you are going to offer to marshall, enforce the rules.

Very rarely have I run into someone I had trouble landing a blow that would be taken, and when I do, I just take the attitude that it is their face they have to look at in the mirror, and I am ok with myself. Body parts should not be forced to move from the impact of an unimpeded shot, and it be "light", but at the end of the day, I walk the road I choose.