Obtaining the baldric?

Yoshida · Post by **Yoshida** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 12:57 am

What does someone have to do to be recognized and wear the bldric for a MAA?

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..l.,

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:02 am

The baldric symbolizes the title "master of arms"
when offered elevation to the chivalry, the candidate MUST be offered to become either a knight, or a master of arms, the difference being that Knights swear fealty to the crown, while masters do not (I have heard of some MOA's swearing fealty to the king, but not the crown)
The Chivalry: The Chivalry consists of two equal parts: Knighthood and Mastery of Arms. No one may belong to both parts of the order at one time. When a member is admitted to the Chivalry by the Sovereign, the choice of which part of the order to join is made by the new member. The candidate must be considered the equal of his or her prospective peers with the basic weapons of
tournament combat. To become a Knight, the candidate must swear fealty to the Crown of his or her kingdom during the knighting ceremony. Masters of Arms may choose to swear fealty, but are not required to do so. Corpora VII A, 4 a

historically, the award was created for an individual who had religious objections to swearing oaths, yet was felt qualified for the accolade of knight.

of course in some kindoms the answer is "nothing", as candidates are carefully chosen based upon wether they will choose the belt.

-+G

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 10:10 am

There are some kingdoms who will absolutely refuse to make anyone a MoA.

What is so frustrating about it is you can have someone who is a really great person, great fighter, all around nice guy....and he will never be admitted to the order of the chivalry because he won't swear fealty.

While Joe Rhino, because he WILL take a belt and chain, WILL be admitted to the order.

When it's like that it's all about politics.

It's not ability or service, which is what it SHOULD be about.
Which is, like I said, frustrating.

There are stories about A-hole MoA's, which is why some kingdoms refuse to grant the honor.
Yet these kindoms also have A-hole Knights, but still grant THAT honor.....
If the belt, chain and oath, are about control, why are some Knights still A-holes?
V
(Who is not trying to insult chivalry here, just pointing out, what seem to ME, contradictions.)

Ned Chaney · Post by **Ned Chaney** » Sat Oct 13, 2001 6:26 pm

In my principality the baldric means you are a member of the Princess's guard.

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Emm aye sea kayee why. Emm ohyou essee.

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Sat Oct 13, 2001 10:05 pm

I think it's an Americanism, and has no place in medieval reinactment.

Would it be better if you could become a knight w/o having to swear fealty? Sounds like the idea to me. You can still wear the belt and spurs but no chain.

then you can apply the title "master" to fencing peers. there were "masters of defence" after all.

-+G

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Sat Oct 13, 2001 10:11 pm

I think it's an Americanism, and has no place in medieval reinactment.

We're so accustomed to accomodating every little whim and preference (which is a good thing in the real world - to a point), that we extend it to a medieval context where it does not belong.

It's a bit like saying "I'd like to portray a priest but I won't do or say anything religious". Duh, wrong job for you.

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Sat Oct 13, 2001 10:16 pm

How the hell did i manage to reply to bobs post before he posted it>?

-+G

Yoshida · Post by **Yoshida** » Sat Oct 13, 2001 11:15 pm

It's not a point of swearing fealty that has me at a loss here. I haven't really had any offers to get squired. Everyone thinks I do very well with a katana at my experiance level and praises my skill highly (to my face any ways) but no one has ofered me a belt. I'm not really tryint to seek out being a peer or anything like a lot of other guys I have seen who can't live without getting a belt of any color. I just thought this goal was more obtainable until something else happens. I like recognition and think that, from my point of view, the belt should be given to those worthy and all. If I'm not worthy yet, fine, but I'm just looking at the future.

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..l.,

Vebrand · Post by **Vebrand** » Sun Oct 14, 2001 3:12 am

Coming from one of the Kingdoms that has no MOA I can say I have not heard of anyone being turned down because he refuses to swear feality. That has never come into play. It is our culture that we have never had a MOA. AS being one who has played now in 7 different kingdoms you find every kingdom has a different culture. So saying a fellow kingdom does not have MOAs because of this reason or that reason may not be the case. You are looking from your culture at another culture which is different but not wrong. Just doing things the way we do them in our Kingdom.
Vebrand

Brodir · Post by **Brodir** » Sun Oct 14, 2001 3:20 am

When I first joined the SCA, I was told that Master of Arms was ONLY available to people who could not swear an oath of fealty for religious reasons. I don't know what religion that refers to, but that's how it was explained to me.

Ned Chaney · Post by **Ned Chaney** » Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:19 pm

Yoshida......have you thought about asking a knight yourself? At first i thought this would be a faux pas of the highest order, however I was set straight in chat one night by no one less than Richard Blackmoore. Find a knight you know and respect and talk to him about taking you on as a squire. I have a knight in mind to ask myself, but haven't seen him at an event since March Crown and I have no contact info for him. It can be done, and it's an acceptable thing to do to approach the knight yourself.

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Emm aye sea kayee why. Emm ohyou essee.

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Sun Oct 14, 2001 9:27 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Yoshida:
It's not a point of swearing fealty that has me at a loss here. I haven't really had any offers to get squired. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yoshida,

Many Knights will not ask a Squire. Either the Squire asks them or they use a "squire yenta" to match them up.

FYI, in some areas in the SCA there is a prejudice against a Japanese persona. Some people I know would not take on a Squire/Apprentice/Protege with a Japanese persona because they feel it is outside the context of the game they are playing -- Pre-17th c Knights in Western Europe.....

Juliana

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Sun Oct 14, 2001 11:00 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by edward atte flynt:
 -- snip --
I have a knight in mind to ask myself, but haven't seen him at an event since March Crown and I have no contact info for him. It can be done, and it's an acceptable thing to do to approach the knight yourself.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Edward, unless the knight you are considering has MAJOR extenuating circumstances, I would rethink your idea to squire to someone who you'd only see every six months. You can't really get a good relationship with someone you only see every six months.
E

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 7:43 am

VERY good point J.P.
Alot of folks DO what you're talking about, then wonder why things don't work out the way they thought.

VvS

Ned Chaney · Post by **Ned Chaney** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 9:59 am

Good advice Jean Paul, and I will definately consider it.

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Emm aye sea kayee why. Emm ohyou essee.

Yoshida · Post by **Yoshida** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 12:35 pm

As far as my Japanese persona, I have a good kit with a kabuto with a mempo and moustache

everyone likes the clothes that I made and regard me as being very enthusiastic about being authentic. With that and my growing skill and speed ont heh field, I don't see how they have much other then the fact of me being Japanese in personna to complain. I thought I looked a whole lot better than the majiority of the ppl in the area. Gundo might have some opinion on my kit for referance.

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 1:32 pm

That raises a very interesting observation I have made over about 9 years of SCA playing......

Most people who have a Japanese personna put more time and effort into a period (within reason) looking kit than folks with western personnas.

At least it sure seems that way to me.
(Note- I don't really know much about Japanese armor...so I can't say whether particular pieces match a particular time period, but it seems less glaringly obvious than a generi-helm/kidney belt/hockey gloves kit that we all see so frequently.)

When is the last time you saw a really crappy looking Japanese kit?

vs-

When is the last time you saw a really crappy looking western European kit?

Just an observation....
VvS

Ulrich · Post by **Ulrich** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:33 pm

Ok I really wasn't going to post here, but I thought it was one of those places where if you can help someone you should, so here goes.

Yoshida: on the subject of getting squired, when that happens is dependent on several things. not the least of which is how social you are. most knights I know wont squire someone they dont know.
My advice, hang out with folks on the field after fights (you may already be doing this I don't know) talk to people. be chatty when you take breaks from pickups or between melee fights. get to know people and let people get to know you. If in your mind your thinking, "hey I wonder when the knights are going to start noticing me?" odds are, they started noticing a couple of events ago.
Realize that some Knights view taking squires in different ways, some knights require someone to ask them, some knights will only ask someone to squire if they (the potential squire) specifically do NOT ask.
and some knights will throw a belt around anyone. some knights have a minimum time limit to know someone before they squire them, etc...it all depends on the knight.
its in that social time between battles/fights and after the day is over around campfires, that you find this stuff out.
Now dont misunderstand i'm not saying "go out there and suckup to the knights" what I'm saying is go out there, have fun, be yourself and be sociable, because if your one of those folks who go out fight, and then just go back to camp and doesn't socailize. these knights you think arent noticing you, are probobly not saying anything to you because your not around to talk to.
On a more personal level I suggest just hanging out and being yourself, eventually you'll find a Knight that you can be friends with and whose personality you mesh with, and it will all work out. if it sounds similar to dateing...well in a way it is. I actually felt very much as if I were being asked out on a date, when I was asked to join my knights household.

*IN MY OPINION* a squire Knight relationship must be based in Friendship, Loyalty and Respect. My knight is my Friend and I am his, and as such I'll do almost anything for him, as my friend he deserves my Loyalty thus I will be there for him if at all possible, as I know he will for me. He deserves my Respect for the friendship and loyalty he gives me, the person he is, the teaching, and the advice he will give me. I could not have taken a belt from anyone I didn't feel that way about both inside and outside the SCA, to do so would have been a disservice to the knight offering the belt and myself.

Lastly make sure that if offered a belt you talk to the knight in depth about what he/she expects from you. AND what you expect from them.

Edward:I think Jean Paul's got the right of this one, at the very least check into whats going on with the knight your interested in.

well for what its worth, there is my advice.
Ulrich

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 4:06 pm

I think that such a small % of folks WANT to do Japanese and because it's less common it's harder to just stumble over "something that's good enough" so it's harder to slide by. If you want to do Japanese, you have more work cut out for you, and since you're doing the work, you might as well do it well.

Any idiot can stumble into a bar grill bascinet and decide that's what their going to wear.

Additionally, I wonder what % of japanese personas have background in asian martial arts...IE, they had a multi year active interest prior to SCA. Just a thought...it seems that at least 1/2 the jap folks I've talked to in the SCA did karate, tae kwon do or whatever prior to starting SCA.

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 9:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vermin:

(Note- I don't really know much about Japanese armor...so I can't say whether particular pieces match a particular time period, but it seems less glaringly obvious than a generi-helm/kidney belt/hockey gloves kit that we all see so frequently.)

When is the last time you saw a really crappy looking Japanese kit?

vs-

When is the last time you saw a really crappy looking western European kit?

Just an observation....
VvS
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have seen plenty of terrible Japanese costumes. Way too many.

But how good a "kit" one has is irrelevant. I could have a great Incan, cave man, Chinese or American Indian outfit and to many people, they still don't fit into a pre-17th c Western European Chivalric culture, yet they all had a greater presence in Europe than a Japanese Samurai.

Choosing a persona that would not have had a significant presence in Europe between 400 AD and 1600 says to many people "Screw you, I'm not going to play your game". Just because something is tolerated, doesn't mean it is supported. I know many honorable, chivalrous and kick butt fighters who were never considered for Knighthood because they didn't play the Chivalric persona game - and chose to be Japanese, generic Barbarian, or other non-Knightly persona types.

Just because you look cool, doesn't mean you will be accepted in the mind of the Chivalry as "Knight potential". I know a number of Knights who would never take on a Squire without a persona that had a documentable presense in Europe during the Chivalric era and many that only take on those within a specific time period.

I'm not saying this is a problem in his local area, but it definitely would be in my neck of the woods with certain Peers, myself included.

There are so many non-mainstream personas that actually were a significant presence in Europe in our time period, that many of us feel no obligation to support someone who chooses outside that...

BTW, I consider Mongol, Middle Eastern, Moorish, Viking, Rus, Slavic and some African personas well within the SCA context, and some new world personas reasonable as well. Each person has their own definition. Some are much more accepting than others.

Juliana

Yoshida · Post by **Yoshida** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 11:06 am

I understand about the relevance of my personna in the context of the SCa and I have been known to don my brother's lamellar kit and all for functions in which my personna isn't all that tolerated, such as demos done for educating ppl on European history. I even try to avoid such ppl who have little tolerance for it for the fact that me giving them more exposure to it would piss them off. It's one thing to want to be a Japanese personna in the SCa (IMHO) but it's another to try to pres the issue with the populace.
I think that one thing that hinders a lot of ppl in the appearance of the armour is the tabard (Besides financial issues and all). A lot of ppl I encounter really lean on a tabard more like a crutch. If it were me, I would like to use a tabard more as a device of identification in large events and mellees than I would to hide anything I might have messed up. And if I were to wear something less than admirable on the field, the tabard would be more temporary to me till I get my kit upgraded.

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..l.,

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 12:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Yoshida:
I understand about the relevance of my personna in the context of the SCa
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I forgot to mention that in many areas there is a prejudice against fighters who are not Sword and Shield fighters. My husband's best form is two sword, but he had to make it very clear that he was also extremely dangerous in S&S before he was Knighted. There was recently in our area, a GREAT great sword fighter who even had a European persona, but even he was told to fight S&S before he would be taken seriously..

Good Luck,

Juliana

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Wed Oct 17, 2001 1:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by FrauHirsch:
 I forgot to mention that in many areas there is a prejudice against fighters who are not Sword and Shield fighters. My husband's best form is two sword, but he had to make it very clear that he was also extremely dangerous in S&S before he was Knighted. There was recently in our area, a GREAT great sword fighter who even had a European persona, but even he was told to fight S&S before he would be taken seriously..

Good Luck,

Juliana

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And, that, IMO is crap.

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Wed Oct 17, 2001 3:44 pm

But is pretty much S.O.P every place I've been.
VvS

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 12:40 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vermin:
But is pretty much S.O.P every place I've been.
VvS<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See my previous post. And luckily its starting to change. My knight, although he does not suck at ANY weapon style, including S&S in known for his pole-arm fighting.

Lubeck · Post by **Lubeck** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 6:16 am

I'm not sure if you are familiar with the gentle, but the foreman of the castle project at war was Muninore (sorry about the spelling) Baron of Roaring Wastes in the Middle Kingdom. He has a Japanese persona and was knighted at war. He might be the person to talk to. I'm not sure where you're from, but if you could make it to an event in that area he's a great guy and easily approachable.

I wonder though if you have a Japanese persona why you wouldn't aspire more toward Knighthood than being a MOA? Isn't it more correct for a Samurai to be in fealty to his Emperor?