Ok. I am now going to make enemies here.
To be truthfull I believe both SCA combat and Real Weapon Fighting have thier downfalls. Both can only go so far. If you want to get a feel for how REAL combat was, with murdering everyone you meet try TUCHUK fighting. The kick, punch, wrestle, and swing hard enough to shatter windshield! You might say -"well they don't wear much armor" and your right. But niether did the average everyday fighter. Only knights and nobility could afford the good armor.
Of coarse you have to expect early retirement fighting the TUCHUK way. You really can't get anymore REALISTIC without killing each other.
(^_^)
Ok. Let the thrashing begin....
Hjalmr
Middle Kingdom
A. E. M. M. A.
The "who is more correct" subject is a worthless waste of time. Just like in the Asian martial arts, I will look at everyone doing everything and find out what works for me.
I do find it strange that the same group of Authenticity people who "poo-poo" basing armour off of period paintings because "there is artistic license"...believe that there is absolutely no artistic license involved in these period fighting manuals.
But, I'm with Clay -- I'd learn period methods from anyone if I could, and ignore the comments (including the negative comments from instructors...I'm here to learn about European armoured combat, not your personal philosophy vs. some other group).
-Aaron
I do find it strange that the same group of Authenticity people who "poo-poo" basing armour off of period paintings because "there is artistic license"...believe that there is absolutely no artistic license involved in these period fighting manuals.
But, I'm with Clay -- I'd learn period methods from anyone if I could, and ignore the comments (including the negative comments from instructors...I'm here to learn about European armoured combat, not your personal philosophy vs. some other group).
-Aaron
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Vitus von Atzinger
- Archive Member
- Posts: 14039
- Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Louisville, Ky. USA
Hjalmr-
You will get no arguement from me. I respect and admire the Tuchux when they fight among themselves. All of that respect flies out the window when they bring that style of fighting to people who didn't sign up for it.
I respect AEMMA a great deal- Brian and David know their stuff.
I respect Chef for his knowledge about the 15th century, he has been a great help to everyone.
But anyone who says that the SCA has no value as a style of medieval tournament-play, is clueless about real armour and fectbuch research and produces no real warriors can go get their axe and we will talk about it in the field or at the barriers. Come to Pennsic and fight Rhys, Drucilus, Niccolo, Felix of Ramsey- they will get a eye-opening experience. I am done with this discussion, both here and on the TC list. I need a break.
-Vitus
You will get no arguement from me. I respect and admire the Tuchux when they fight among themselves. All of that respect flies out the window when they bring that style of fighting to people who didn't sign up for it.
I respect AEMMA a great deal- Brian and David know their stuff.
I respect Chef for his knowledge about the 15th century, he has been a great help to everyone.
But anyone who says that the SCA has no value as a style of medieval tournament-play, is clueless about real armour and fectbuch research and produces no real warriors can go get their axe and we will talk about it in the field or at the barriers. Come to Pennsic and fight Rhys, Drucilus, Niccolo, Felix of Ramsey- they will get a eye-opening experience. I am done with this discussion, both here and on the TC list. I need a break.
-Vitus
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Michael Shedden
- Archive Member
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Dundas, Ontario, Canada
- Contact:
Hmmm...I read my original post again, and I must say I am terrible at expressing myself through writing.
My comments about the SCA sounded harsh, but they weren't really meant to be. I have some good friends in the SCA. It's also the only place where you can really experience mass-battle situations. I miss fighting at Pennsic.
Really though, it just wasn't the group for me. All I wanted to do was wear historical armour and fight. I got tired of the politics and having people tell me why I should replace my heavy armour with plastic.
I hope this somewhat clarifies what I was trying to say.
Michael Shedden
http://www.barbute.com/armour
[This message has been edited by Michael Shedden (edited 12-17-2001).]
My comments about the SCA sounded harsh, but they weren't really meant to be. I have some good friends in the SCA. It's also the only place where you can really experience mass-battle situations. I miss fighting at Pennsic.
Really though, it just wasn't the group for me. All I wanted to do was wear historical armour and fight. I got tired of the politics and having people tell me why I should replace my heavy armour with plastic.
I hope this somewhat clarifies what I was trying to say.
Michael Shedden
http://www.barbute.com/armour
[This message has been edited by Michael Shedden (edited 12-17-2001).]
Hjalmr:
Thanks for the plug! I have fought in virtually every type of non-steel type stuff. Boffer, Markland, SCA and of course Tuchux. And I have learned something from all of them. I have never had the opportunity to do AEMMA or HACA. I imagine that if I tried I would have some morsel of the basics, but like learning any other martial art. You have to start somewhere and usually that is close to zero.
If I walked into one of Bob's seminars, I would probably be a bit better off than someone who has never lifted a sword other than to put it on the wall, but I would NEVER underestimate this opponent.
It is the big circle. Have any of you fought that non-timid rank newbie, who could somehow hit you, all because his style was so unorthodox or whacky that it didn't make sense? Then as soon as they start to work on fundamentals/katas what have you, they become pretty much inept. This is the circle of learning. Because the goal is to get to the point where you have learned enough to be completely unpredictable, something like that way that rookie was.
Bruce Lee used to say that once you get down to it, a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick.
I consider SCA, boffer, boxing, kendo, seige weapon craft, fencing to all be martial arts.
I firmly believe that knowledge is not necessarily found where you look for it but where it reveals itself to you. If I were to do some fencing and learned a step or feint of whatever, that produced the seed of an idea that helped me at Pennsic, than that would be success.
It all depends on your goals. Why does someone take Karate vs Judo vs Boxing? Availability, good advertising, becuase someone introduced you, for exercise, self defense, discipline?
I fight because I like it. I fight in the Tuchux because I like it best.
BEDLAM,
Bear Clan, Tuchux
Thanks for the plug! I have fought in virtually every type of non-steel type stuff. Boffer, Markland, SCA and of course Tuchux. And I have learned something from all of them. I have never had the opportunity to do AEMMA or HACA. I imagine that if I tried I would have some morsel of the basics, but like learning any other martial art. You have to start somewhere and usually that is close to zero.
If I walked into one of Bob's seminars, I would probably be a bit better off than someone who has never lifted a sword other than to put it on the wall, but I would NEVER underestimate this opponent.
It is the big circle. Have any of you fought that non-timid rank newbie, who could somehow hit you, all because his style was so unorthodox or whacky that it didn't make sense? Then as soon as they start to work on fundamentals/katas what have you, they become pretty much inept. This is the circle of learning. Because the goal is to get to the point where you have learned enough to be completely unpredictable, something like that way that rookie was.
Bruce Lee used to say that once you get down to it, a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick.
I consider SCA, boffer, boxing, kendo, seige weapon craft, fencing to all be martial arts.
I firmly believe that knowledge is not necessarily found where you look for it but where it reveals itself to you. If I were to do some fencing and learned a step or feint of whatever, that produced the seed of an idea that helped me at Pennsic, than that would be success.
It all depends on your goals. Why does someone take Karate vs Judo vs Boxing? Availability, good advertising, becuase someone introduced you, for exercise, self defense, discipline?
I fight because I like it. I fight in the Tuchux because I like it best.
BEDLAM,
Bear Clan, Tuchux
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Prince Of Darkmoor
- Archive Member
- Posts: 4793
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Salinas, CA
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">To be truthfull I believe both SCA combat and Real Weapon Fighting have thier downfalls. Both can only go so far. If you want to get a feel for how REAL combat was, with murdering everyone you meet try TUCHUK fighting. The kick, punch, wrestle, and swing hard enough to shatter windshield! You might say -"well they don't wear much armor" and your right. But niether did the average everyday fighter. Only knights and nobility could afford the good armor.
Of coarse you have to expect early retirement fighting the TUCHUK way. You really can't get anymore REALISTIC without killing each other.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I really can't wait to fight some Tuchuks at Pennsic so I can see how their method of combat differs from ours.
------------------
Salinas Swordsman
Darkmoor Armoury
M.A.I.L. - All your Chainmaille questions answered here
Of coarse you have to expect early retirement fighting the TUCHUK way. You really can't get anymore REALISTIC without killing each other.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I really can't wait to fight some Tuchuks at Pennsic so I can see how their method of combat differs from ours.
------------------
Salinas Swordsman
Darkmoor Armoury
M.A.I.L. - All your Chainmaille questions answered here
-
FrauHirsch
- Archive Member
- Posts: 4520
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 2:01 am
- Location: San Diego, CA, USA
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by KeggeR:
<B>
FrauHirsch</B> I have known you awhile from my experiences in the Adrian Empire. I used to fight with August but now I have moved on. [b]All forms of combat I've seen being practiced is limited in some way due to the real physical danger if we were to actually use sharp thrusties and full force, so all groups have some limitations. If you look at Aemma combat listings you will see that they attack all weak points with sharp thrusties, its the real deal. The only problem is that if you fear for your life in combat don't do this. I my self don't mind if I die in combat that's how dedicated I am, who knows maybe I will go to Valhalla
If you are interested in learning more I would be more than happy to invite you and your husband to train with us.
Thank you everyone, sorry if I have been harsh with this issue. But fighting to me is more than just playing, is a love.[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
KeggeR,
I have no need to die in combat. I have no desire to be crippled for life (as I've seen many old time SCA fighters end up, BTW). For many years I've known I could hit weak spots, but I don't. I prefer the "gentleman's game" we play in SCA or Adria, which has an augmentation of some grappling. I believe in learning from period manuals but have no specific interest in recreating them to any realistic conclusion. Its not a matter of fear, but of practicality. Several people in our group went to the Swordsmanship symposium in the Bay area last spring and are very much interested in advancing our knowledge of period technique. There are several people in our area who are active in the new "Masters of Defense" Guild in Adria who are focusing on period fencing as well.
When we play in Adria with rebated weapons, Sir Arion and I actually avoid certain blows to unarmored areas and of course reduce power significantly from full capacity. We are playing with our friends and have no need to hurt them. When we play with Adria, we play in accordance by Adrian rules of combat. When we play in SCA, we play by SCA rules of combat.
I have spoken with Lord David and part of our issue is distance being far in the Northern region of the County. There is certainly no antipathy to your group and we wish you all the best and look forward to perhaps some training exchange in the future.
Please excuse me, but I'll leave the rolling around on the ground to those who are much younger and much more exhuberant.
Juliana
<B>
FrauHirsch</B> I have known you awhile from my experiences in the Adrian Empire. I used to fight with August but now I have moved on. [b]All forms of combat I've seen being practiced is limited in some way due to the real physical danger if we were to actually use sharp thrusties and full force, so all groups have some limitations. If you look at Aemma combat listings you will see that they attack all weak points with sharp thrusties, its the real deal. The only problem is that if you fear for your life in combat don't do this. I my self don't mind if I die in combat that's how dedicated I am, who knows maybe I will go to Valhalla
If you are interested in learning more I would be more than happy to invite you and your husband to train with us.Thank you everyone, sorry if I have been harsh with this issue. But fighting to me is more than just playing, is a love.[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
KeggeR,
I have no need to die in combat. I have no desire to be crippled for life (as I've seen many old time SCA fighters end up, BTW). For many years I've known I could hit weak spots, but I don't. I prefer the "gentleman's game" we play in SCA or Adria, which has an augmentation of some grappling. I believe in learning from period manuals but have no specific interest in recreating them to any realistic conclusion. Its not a matter of fear, but of practicality. Several people in our group went to the Swordsmanship symposium in the Bay area last spring and are very much interested in advancing our knowledge of period technique. There are several people in our area who are active in the new "Masters of Defense" Guild in Adria who are focusing on period fencing as well.
When we play in Adria with rebated weapons, Sir Arion and I actually avoid certain blows to unarmored areas and of course reduce power significantly from full capacity. We are playing with our friends and have no need to hurt them. When we play with Adria, we play in accordance by Adrian rules of combat. When we play in SCA, we play by SCA rules of combat.
I have spoken with Lord David and part of our issue is distance being far in the Northern region of the County. There is certainly no antipathy to your group and we wish you all the best and look forward to perhaps some training exchange in the future.
Please excuse me, but I'll leave the rolling around on the ground to those who are much younger and much more exhuberant.
Juliana
I dont want to get off topic, but something stated in this thread bothered me a bit.
Kegger, when you stated that you had no problem dying in combat, and that people who feared for their lives shouldn't do what you do, I really hope that was you being a little over-enthusiastic and not anywhere near what you are doing.
Although I have never had to fear for my life, I have been in situations where the sparring became very real, when I had to decide between hurting my opponent and being hurt myself. If you are fighting to survive, you are NOT learning anything. The point of practice is to try new techniques, find out what works and what doesnt. You really cant do that in a venue where serious injury is a possibility. I applaud your enthusiasm and dedication to fighting, but if you are injured or dead, you cant very well train, can you? and if you have to worry about injury, you are not going to try the new things and make the dumb mistakes that help you progress. You are actually going to severly hamper your progress. Finally, as far as I know, AEMMA does not use sharp swords in combat, as a matter of fact the official supplier of combat swords for them is Heimrick armoury, a Canadian company that makes very good blunt weapons. I very much doubt that AEMMA would endorse sharp sparring of any kind. AEMMA does very hard core fighting, but they also have very strict armour standards, and seem as concerned about safety as any other group around.
Kegger, when you stated that you had no problem dying in combat, and that people who feared for their lives shouldn't do what you do, I really hope that was you being a little over-enthusiastic and not anywhere near what you are doing.
Although I have never had to fear for my life, I have been in situations where the sparring became very real, when I had to decide between hurting my opponent and being hurt myself. If you are fighting to survive, you are NOT learning anything. The point of practice is to try new techniques, find out what works and what doesnt. You really cant do that in a venue where serious injury is a possibility. I applaud your enthusiasm and dedication to fighting, but if you are injured or dead, you cant very well train, can you? and if you have to worry about injury, you are not going to try the new things and make the dumb mistakes that help you progress. You are actually going to severly hamper your progress. Finally, as far as I know, AEMMA does not use sharp swords in combat, as a matter of fact the official supplier of combat swords for them is Heimrick armoury, a Canadian company that makes very good blunt weapons. I very much doubt that AEMMA would endorse sharp sparring of any kind. AEMMA does very hard core fighting, but they also have very strict armour standards, and seem as concerned about safety as any other group around.
Prince of Darkmoor:
You have to remember though that when at SCA events, they fight by SCA rules -well sorta, kinda, well maybe....
To experience how they really fight you have to fight under thier rules. I have done so a couple of times, but am getting rather old and fragile -so I'll stick with the SCA.
I feel the SCA is the all around best when you take everything into effect.
Hjalmr
Middle Kingdom
You have to remember though that when at SCA events, they fight by SCA rules -well sorta, kinda, well maybe....
To experience how they really fight you have to fight under thier rules. I have done so a couple of times, but am getting rather old and fragile -so I'll stick with the SCA.
I feel the SCA is the all around best when you take everything into effect.
Hjalmr
Middle Kingdom
First off left me respond
FrauHirsch
Sorry if I sounded a little harsh but the group that we have going so far here does not try to KILL or HURT each other, maybe it sounded like that. What I am trying to do from my stand point is to recreate real fighting. I the middle ages people would normally go for the weak spots on armor, that's what i'm trying to learn. We have already begun attacking weak spots and training to an extent that we could kill each other fully armored if we chose to. I fallow the rules and bite my lip in the Adrian Empire, that's why I have chosen not to fight there anymore. If I have nothing nice to say on the field then I shouldn't say it at all, and to keep my self from saying it I have to be away from there, saying bad things ruin peoples state of mind if they really like something. I have no problems with SCA combat. Matter of fact I belive its the best that can be found anywhere for war recreation. Most of the fighting we are learning is about body movements and foot work. Like tripping an opponent, and holding their sword throwing them on the ground. Yes its not safe but its as real as we can get. As for Adria and SCA when ever I fight there I know that I NEVER try to overpower or hurt someone. I was told what happened at the last war with Sir Allen, that finished my Adrian ties. I belive that someone should never knowingly try to hurt someone else in combat; but our group has historical basis for hard hits and cheep shots (how ever un gentlemen like it may be its VERY period)
Sorry if I come off like a meanie but please take into consideration that when i'm typing you cannot see my face and how pleasant it is right now. I will most likely never think of you as anything else but a friend.
markH If I said we us sharp swords sorry for confusing you, was prob typing to fast. As of now we use Adrian steel legal swords like StarFires and Homemade swords to Adrian legal standards. How ever there is no blunted trusting tip or hammerhead. Our combat is normally goes some thing like so about 5-10 nice hard hits a few thrusts in open areas to confuse or disarm are opponent then grappling or sword grabs. If its a direct thrust and it enters a eyelet the fight is over. That would be a real kill, but combat is not *ting* *ting* and over its hit stand back hit stand back grapple hit hit stand back. Its basically a stand off. The key is really conserving your energy to disarm or drop your opponent to the ground. How ever safety is top notch, always comes first. Yes I would love to live another day to fight but this type of combat is so rare that resurrecting it might cause people to get hurt or parish. The armor standards are VERY strict, we have to wear a padded gamb then over that chainmail to protect body as well as arms and arm pits. Over that goes the steel.
Here for example is what this type of combat is like. I start with a battle axe my opponent with long sword. Fully armored I charge striking a hit on the right side of his body just the arm. He return takes his long sword places it behind my head and then holds it parrell to his shoulders ramming my helmet into his chest. I in return while this is happening move my axe blade down onto his knee fan on the right leg locking it with my blade at the same time I pull and push but my head is being forced down by his left arm where I receive a full on hit to the left side of my neck. How ever my attempt worked better because I'm able to push him onto the flat of his back. Allowing me to disarm him and basically hog tie him. Once pinned I would pull out a dagger and hold it to an eye slot or throat and tell him hes dead.
[This message has been edited by KeggeR (edited 12-17-2001).]
FrauHirsch
Sorry if I sounded a little harsh but the group that we have going so far here does not try to KILL or HURT each other, maybe it sounded like that. What I am trying to do from my stand point is to recreate real fighting. I the middle ages people would normally go for the weak spots on armor, that's what i'm trying to learn. We have already begun attacking weak spots and training to an extent that we could kill each other fully armored if we chose to. I fallow the rules and bite my lip in the Adrian Empire, that's why I have chosen not to fight there anymore. If I have nothing nice to say on the field then I shouldn't say it at all, and to keep my self from saying it I have to be away from there, saying bad things ruin peoples state of mind if they really like something. I have no problems with SCA combat. Matter of fact I belive its the best that can be found anywhere for war recreation. Most of the fighting we are learning is about body movements and foot work. Like tripping an opponent, and holding their sword throwing them on the ground. Yes its not safe but its as real as we can get. As for Adria and SCA when ever I fight there I know that I NEVER try to overpower or hurt someone. I was told what happened at the last war with Sir Allen, that finished my Adrian ties. I belive that someone should never knowingly try to hurt someone else in combat; but our group has historical basis for hard hits and cheep shots (how ever un gentlemen like it may be its VERY period)
Sorry if I come off like a meanie but please take into consideration that when i'm typing you cannot see my face and how pleasant it is right now. I will most likely never think of you as anything else but a friend.
markH If I said we us sharp swords sorry for confusing you, was prob typing to fast
. As of now we use Adrian steel legal swords like StarFires and Homemade swords to Adrian legal standards. How ever there is no blunted trusting tip or hammerhead. Our combat is normally goes some thing like so about 5-10 nice hard hits a few thrusts in open areas to confuse or disarm are opponent then grappling or sword grabs. If its a direct thrust and it enters a eyelet the fight is over. That would be a real kill, but combat is not *ting* *ting* and over its hit stand back hit stand back grapple hit hit stand back. Its basically a stand off. The key is really conserving your energy to disarm or drop your opponent to the ground. How ever safety is top notch, always comes first. Yes I would love to live another day to fight but this type of combat is so rare that resurrecting it might cause people to get hurt or parish. The armor standards are VERY strict, we have to wear a padded gamb then over that chainmail to protect body as well as arms and arm pits. Over that goes the steel.Here for example is what this type of combat is like. I start with a battle axe my opponent with long sword. Fully armored I charge striking a hit on the right side of his body just the arm. He return takes his long sword places it behind my head and then holds it parrell to his shoulders ramming my helmet into his chest. I in return while this is happening move my axe blade down onto his knee fan on the right leg locking it with my blade at the same time I pull and push but my head is being forced down by his left arm where I receive a full on hit to the left side of my neck. How ever my attempt worked better because I'm able to push him onto the flat of his back. Allowing me to disarm him and basically hog tie him. Once pinned I would pull out a dagger and hold it to an eye slot or throat and tell him hes dead.
[This message has been edited by KeggeR (edited 12-17-2001).]
-
FrauHirsch
- Archive Member
- Posts: 4520
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 2:01 am
- Location: San Diego, CA, USA
- Contact:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by KeggeR:
<B> First off left me respond
FrauHirsch</B>
I was told what happened at the last war with Sir Allen, that finished my Adrian ties.
[This message has been edited by KeggeR (edited 12-17-2001).]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well as typical, you heard a bunch of crap. No one intentionally hurt Sir ALyn and I'd love to know who told you that. I was there and it is all on video as well. Sir ALyn stood there like a stump while 4 people approached him while engaged and just happened to hit him at the same time. No intent to injure, just a WAR. I saw him struck and it was not excessive. I have been a Senior Marshal in the SCA for over 18 years and really can tell when people are hit way too hard. He was hit about 1/2 as hard as a typical SCA spear thrust when all was combined. Not excessive for anyone with a properly-strapped helm.
I am sick and tired of people crying foul just because they didn't win, and maybe worse, those who readily believe the gossip without bothering to check the facts. If you aren't part of the solution to vicious gossip, then you are part of the problem.
The fact is that only one person was reported as needing to go to the emergency room and that was a valiant Squire from Aragon on the side opposite from Sir ALyn. Squire Michael was deeply bone bruised through two layers of moving pad, chain mail, and a steel breast plate and had to be cut out of his mail shirt. The good Squire has been fighting well over 5 years. If you have any additional questions about the war, please email me privately. Things may not be as you have been told.
Juliana
<B> First off left me respond
FrauHirsch</B>
I was told what happened at the last war with Sir Allen, that finished my Adrian ties.
[This message has been edited by KeggeR (edited 12-17-2001).]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well as typical, you heard a bunch of crap. No one intentionally hurt Sir ALyn and I'd love to know who told you that. I was there and it is all on video as well. Sir ALyn stood there like a stump while 4 people approached him while engaged and just happened to hit him at the same time. No intent to injure, just a WAR. I saw him struck and it was not excessive. I have been a Senior Marshal in the SCA for over 18 years and really can tell when people are hit way too hard. He was hit about 1/2 as hard as a typical SCA spear thrust when all was combined. Not excessive for anyone with a properly-strapped helm.
I am sick and tired of people crying foul just because they didn't win, and maybe worse, those who readily believe the gossip without bothering to check the facts. If you aren't part of the solution to vicious gossip, then you are part of the problem.
The fact is that only one person was reported as needing to go to the emergency room and that was a valiant Squire from Aragon on the side opposite from Sir ALyn. Squire Michael was deeply bone bruised through two layers of moving pad, chain mail, and a steel breast plate and had to be cut out of his mail shirt. The good Squire has been fighting well over 5 years. If you have any additional questions about the war, please email me privately. Things may not be as you have been told.
Juliana
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FrauHirsch:
<B> Well as typical, you heard a bunch of crap. No one intentionally hurt Sir ALyn and I'd love to know who told you that. I was there and it is all on video as well. Sir ALyn stood there like a stump while 4 people approached him while engaged and just happened to hit him at the same time. No intent to injure, just a WAR. I saw him struck and it was not excessive. I have been a Senior Marshal in the SCA for over 18 years and really can tell when people are hit way too hard. He was hit about 1/2 as hard as a typical SCA spear thrust when all was combined. Not excessive for anyone with a properly-strapped helm.
I am sick and tired of people crying foul just because they didn't win, and maybe worse, those who readily believe the gossip without bothering to check the facts. If you aren't part of the solution to vicious gossip, then you are part of the problem.
The fact is that only one person was reported as needing to go to the emergency room and that was a valiant Squire from Aragon on the side opposite from Sir ALyn. Squire Michael was deeply bone bruised through two layers of moving pad, chain mail, and a steel breast plate and had to be cut out of his mail shirt. The good Squire has been fighting well over 5 years. If you have any additional questions about the war, please email me privately. Things may not be as you have been told.
Juliana
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmm as for names, really my only contacts that remain in Adria are Bill and Fred Latham, aka Wilhelm and Karlyndros Maldrin. They both were there and said he got it pretty bad. Don't know though hearing you talk about it just changed my whole view of the whole thing. As of what I was told it was pretty much one sided. I have never liked the whole idea of politics and that's why I think its the SCA is such a great thing. The Adrian empire and the SCA both involve the same amount of politics but since the Adrian empire is so small everyone in a group deals with it as to where everyone in the SCA only deals on it if they are leaders of groups or at "Noble Level", and by god if I had my choice it would only be fighting that I would remain there for. I hate politics! They make friends turn on each other for something that's no more real that a dungeons and dragons game. If I had my way everyone would just go there to fight and camp out, crowns and groups and people of invisible status just make other people jealous and that causes a power struggle. I have really no questions about the war but maybe the adira empire in time will out grow the SCA but until then I will avoid it. If you speak with Squire Michael please convey my condolences. Also just a side question, do you have films of all the Adrian wars?
Take care
<B> Well as typical, you heard a bunch of crap. No one intentionally hurt Sir ALyn and I'd love to know who told you that. I was there and it is all on video as well. Sir ALyn stood there like a stump while 4 people approached him while engaged and just happened to hit him at the same time. No intent to injure, just a WAR. I saw him struck and it was not excessive. I have been a Senior Marshal in the SCA for over 18 years and really can tell when people are hit way too hard. He was hit about 1/2 as hard as a typical SCA spear thrust when all was combined. Not excessive for anyone with a properly-strapped helm.
I am sick and tired of people crying foul just because they didn't win, and maybe worse, those who readily believe the gossip without bothering to check the facts. If you aren't part of the solution to vicious gossip, then you are part of the problem.
The fact is that only one person was reported as needing to go to the emergency room and that was a valiant Squire from Aragon on the side opposite from Sir ALyn. Squire Michael was deeply bone bruised through two layers of moving pad, chain mail, and a steel breast plate and had to be cut out of his mail shirt. The good Squire has been fighting well over 5 years. If you have any additional questions about the war, please email me privately. Things may not be as you have been told.
Juliana
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmm as for names, really my only contacts that remain in Adria are Bill and Fred Latham, aka Wilhelm and Karlyndros Maldrin. They both were there and said he got it pretty bad. Don't know though hearing you talk about it just changed my whole view of the whole thing. As of what I was told it was pretty much one sided. I have never liked the whole idea of politics and that's why I think its the SCA is such a great thing. The Adrian empire and the SCA both involve the same amount of politics but since the Adrian empire is so small everyone in a group deals with it as to where everyone in the SCA only deals on it if they are leaders of groups or at "Noble Level", and by god if I had my choice it would only be fighting that I would remain there for. I hate politics! They make friends turn on each other for something that's no more real that a dungeons and dragons game. If I had my way everyone would just go there to fight and camp out, crowns and groups and people of invisible status just make other people jealous and that causes a power struggle. I have really no questions about the war but maybe the adira empire in time will out grow the SCA but until then I will avoid it. If you speak with Squire Michael please convey my condolences. Also just a side question, do you have films of all the Adrian wars?
Take care
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FrauHirsch
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by KeggeR:
<B> As of what I was told it was pretty much one sided. I have never liked the whole idea of politics and that's why I think its the SCA is such a great thing. <snip> If you speak with Squire Michael please convey my condolences. Also just a side question, do you have films of all the Adrian wars?
Take care</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree that the politics are more intense because it is a small group. I have found this to be true in all small groups. It was a one sided war. I'm not sure what the people who called this war were thinking (they were the small side). It wasn't a fun war. Civil Wars are never fun wars. They are an attempt to overthrow the Crowns.
I heard several of the people who hit Sir ALyn say that they tried to pull their shots at the last minute when they realized others would hit him at the same time. It was one of those things that was more emotionally a a beating than physically to my eye. Sometimes the stories about wars become a bit more exciting than the actual battles if you know what I mean. These were overall way too short and we were all left wanting to fight more steel.
I am not saying that Sir ALyn did not have some physical discomfort. I also don't know how his helm is strapped. This all needs to be investigated by the Marshallate as well as the fact that immediately following the battle, he threw his weapon towards the crowd, but it hit a marshal instead. :-/
I don't personally have copies of the videos. The person who took them played them for us the next day and we did not get a copy. The same person has some good tape of the previous Crown war that is good footage. I keep trying to get a copy.
If I speak with Squire Michael, I will send your regards. He was doing better after some pain killer. But as we all know, this is a full contact sport and injuries do happen. Its the spirit of Chivalry and sportsmanship that can transcend all the ugliness.
I agree that the SCA is a pleasant reprieve much of the time. It doesn't need to be that way if people would simply play nice and cut out the gossip (which always seems to exagerate the worst case assumptions.) The key is to try to really find out the truth and come to a resolution to any real problems. That is the way it could be stopped.
regards,
Juliana
<B> As of what I was told it was pretty much one sided. I have never liked the whole idea of politics and that's why I think its the SCA is such a great thing. <snip> If you speak with Squire Michael please convey my condolences. Also just a side question, do you have films of all the Adrian wars?
Take care</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree that the politics are more intense because it is a small group. I have found this to be true in all small groups. It was a one sided war. I'm not sure what the people who called this war were thinking (they were the small side). It wasn't a fun war. Civil Wars are never fun wars. They are an attempt to overthrow the Crowns.
I heard several of the people who hit Sir ALyn say that they tried to pull their shots at the last minute when they realized others would hit him at the same time. It was one of those things that was more emotionally a a beating than physically to my eye. Sometimes the stories about wars become a bit more exciting than the actual battles if you know what I mean. These were overall way too short and we were all left wanting to fight more steel.
I am not saying that Sir ALyn did not have some physical discomfort. I also don't know how his helm is strapped. This all needs to be investigated by the Marshallate as well as the fact that immediately following the battle, he threw his weapon towards the crowd, but it hit a marshal instead. :-/
I don't personally have copies of the videos. The person who took them played them for us the next day and we did not get a copy. The same person has some good tape of the previous Crown war that is good footage. I keep trying to get a copy.
If I speak with Squire Michael, I will send your regards. He was doing better after some pain killer. But as we all know, this is a full contact sport and injuries do happen. Its the spirit of Chivalry and sportsmanship that can transcend all the ugliness.
I agree that the SCA is a pleasant reprieve much of the time. It doesn't need to be that way if people would simply play nice and cut out the gossip (which always seems to exagerate the worst case assumptions.) The key is to try to really find out the truth and come to a resolution to any real problems. That is the way it could be stopped.
regards,
Juliana
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Steve S.
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Vitus, I hear what you are saying and I agree with a lot of it.
But I think a lot of the flack you are getting is because there is a big taste in your postings of "if you just dropped a real sword in an SCA warrior's hands he'd do just fine".
I don't think that's the case. Sure, SCA combat is good combat training. It is a true competitive combat.
Nonetheless, there are many reknowned knights in the SCA that aren't warriors. The classic SCA "gunfighter" comes to mind. They just happen to be quick at playing "I touched ya!" with a rattan club.
In short, I think you are broadly giving SCA combat a lot more weight than it's due, in a vain attempt to put SCA combat on equal footing with actual historical combat.
Steve
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Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!
But I think a lot of the flack you are getting is because there is a big taste in your postings of "if you just dropped a real sword in an SCA warrior's hands he'd do just fine".
I don't think that's the case. Sure, SCA combat is good combat training. It is a true competitive combat.
Nonetheless, there are many reknowned knights in the SCA that aren't warriors. The classic SCA "gunfighter" comes to mind. They just happen to be quick at playing "I touched ya!" with a rattan club.
In short, I think you are broadly giving SCA combat a lot more weight than it's due, in a vain attempt to put SCA combat on equal footing with actual historical combat.
Steve
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Forth Armoury
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Robert Clark Carruth
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Steve S.
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"So playing "I touched ya" with steel wouldn't have the same value?"
The point is, in true combat playing "I touched ya" won't get you anything.
Steve
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Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!
The point is, in true combat playing "I touched ya" won't get you anything.
Steve
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Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!
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chef de chambre
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After this last bit, I think I ought point out that the HWMA community isn't sitting around and reading books. Most 'salles' have experienced martial artists heading them, who are amature scholars , translating the material, and applying it.
I am amused that some of you think us a bunch of bespecetecled geeks. Most HWMA leaders I have known are very, very fit and athletic people. In contrast, most SCA knights and peers I have seen with my own eyes are on average 40 - 50 lbs overweight - Bob Charron being THE notable exception. I know not all 'peers' fit this stereotype, but most of those I have seen do.
What most HWMA schools and instructors expect, is that the student have control over their weapon - to be able to strike with full force, but stop or pull the blow without ever touching the target. To practise follow through (and blade orientation), many practise test-cutting on a variety of targets, from reed mats to water bottles.
I havent noticed the same ammount of control from SCA attendees to the seminars I have participated in. Different game - different rules. Most HWMA armoured combat doesn't have people whacking each other with swords hard enough to crease the armour - they utilize period techniques such as half-swording, since battering away a a properly constructed harness with a real sword would do little damage to the armour, and more to the sword. Rattan is more akin to, and behaves like a mass weapon than a sword. Historical techniques we can document show that fecht-master taught to defeat the opponents armour by attacking it's weaknesses - not battering through it's main strength.
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Bob R.
I am amused that some of you think us a bunch of bespecetecled geeks. Most HWMA leaders I have known are very, very fit and athletic people. In contrast, most SCA knights and peers I have seen with my own eyes are on average 40 - 50 lbs overweight - Bob Charron being THE notable exception. I know not all 'peers' fit this stereotype, but most of those I have seen do.
What most HWMA schools and instructors expect, is that the student have control over their weapon - to be able to strike with full force, but stop or pull the blow without ever touching the target. To practise follow through (and blade orientation), many practise test-cutting on a variety of targets, from reed mats to water bottles.
I havent noticed the same ammount of control from SCA attendees to the seminars I have participated in. Different game - different rules. Most HWMA armoured combat doesn't have people whacking each other with swords hard enough to crease the armour - they utilize period techniques such as half-swording, since battering away a a properly constructed harness with a real sword would do little damage to the armour, and more to the sword. Rattan is more akin to, and behaves like a mass weapon than a sword. Historical techniques we can document show that fecht-master taught to defeat the opponents armour by attacking it's weaknesses - not battering through it's main strength.
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Bob R.
You know, the funny thing about steel sparring is the relative lack of damage to plate compared to rattan. I have and do fight hard with steel, and a properly balanced 2.5-4 pound longsword does not cause as much damage as my rattan weapons. I think that an SCA knight would do just fine against his historical counterpart in a tourney that used weapons/rules similar to what we use now. In a real fight, I believe that the SCAdian's lack of knowledge concering grappling, blade grabbing, kicking dirt in the eyes etc, as well as the full body targets would prove detrimental. I really think that the switch from SCA style tourney fighting to a more open system has to be experienced to be truly appreciated. The first time I did some controlled sparring with Bob Charron, and he grabbed my sword, I got all discombobulated. It really took a large mental shift to start letting go of the friggin sword and wrestle with him.
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chef de chambre
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Brennus,
It is pretty simple, really. They were socialized to kill from childhood - that killing was accpetable. They trained to it most of their lives, practising killing with hunting. It was socially, if not entirely morally acceptable.
Modern Westerners on the other hand are socialized to not kill, from cradel to grave, and a large part of military training is intended to overcome that tendancy.
Training in the SCA, people are expected to show restraint - but they obviously do not if creasing heavy guage metal is the norm where you are - , you are not allowed to maim or cripple your opponent, and you would feel badly if you did so.
An SCA knight would have to overcome his restraints, and would probably die before he had the chance to in a real battle. Not to mention, you would not be considered the social equals of the man at arms, and would be treated as commoners (if somehow you could miraculously transport yourself 'back to the day'). Most SCAdians I have seen lack the string of horses, the clothing, the servant(s), and the grade of equipment that would mark you to be the 'station' of a knight. How do you think Sir beergut the loud and obnoxious would be treated if he showed up in the middle of Bruge in 1452, in all his normal finery - plastic armour, poly-blend tabbard, armour worn over a tee-shirt, etc. Would he be assumed to be of a high social station? Something tells me he wouldn't be ushered into the chapter meeting of the Order of the Fleece at Champanol, and be 'hailed and well met good fellow'ed".
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Bob R.
It is pretty simple, really. They were socialized to kill from childhood - that killing was accpetable. They trained to it most of their lives, practising killing with hunting. It was socially, if not entirely morally acceptable.
Modern Westerners on the other hand are socialized to not kill, from cradel to grave, and a large part of military training is intended to overcome that tendancy.
Training in the SCA, people are expected to show restraint - but they obviously do not if creasing heavy guage metal is the norm where you are - , you are not allowed to maim or cripple your opponent, and you would feel badly if you did so.
An SCA knight would have to overcome his restraints, and would probably die before he had the chance to in a real battle. Not to mention, you would not be considered the social equals of the man at arms, and would be treated as commoners (if somehow you could miraculously transport yourself 'back to the day'). Most SCAdians I have seen lack the string of horses, the clothing, the servant(s), and the grade of equipment that would mark you to be the 'station' of a knight. How do you think Sir beergut the loud and obnoxious would be treated if he showed up in the middle of Bruge in 1452, in all his normal finery - plastic armour, poly-blend tabbard, armour worn over a tee-shirt, etc. Would he be assumed to be of a high social station? Something tells me he wouldn't be ushered into the chapter meeting of the Order of the Fleece at Champanol, and be 'hailed and well met good fellow'ed".
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Bob R.
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JJ Shred
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">They would have also lacked something most sca knights have, years and years of practice in basically realistic tourney and war senarios it may not be for REAL but it is more than your hypothetical man at arms has. Would the average Man at Arms who had never been in a mass battle be as useful as an SCA knight who had fought time and again at Pennsic or half a dozen other wars?</font>
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! This is RICH! I love a good laugh in the morning!!! Please, on to the punchline!
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muttman
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Chef, I know you live in Nashua. I live about 45min, north of you. I don`t know anyone else in the area who does combat based off of manuals with live steel and such, but would be interested in checking it out. I don`t see myself checking out your group with any thoughts of joining, as My interest lie elsewhere, but I am always interested in anything that can add to My combat skills, and make Me a more well rounded warrior. My inlaws live in Chelmsford, so I find Myself in your neck of the woods fairly often. I would as I said, love the opprotunity to check out some of these techniques for Myself with someone who already has some experience with them. If you want, you can e-mail Me with a phone number and I can give you a call.
John
BTW, have you ever worked at the hobby shop by Outback and Joannes in Tyngsborro? If so, I think we met breifly about four or five years ago.
John
BTW, have you ever worked at the hobby shop by Outback and Joannes in Tyngsborro? If so, I think we met breifly about four or five years ago.
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Steve S.
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Brennus:
Sorry, I side with Chef and Bascot. I think you're way off course if you think your average SCA knight would be a more effective combatant than a period man-at-arms.
It's obvious from your postings that the SCA is near and dear to you.
Steve
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Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!
Sorry, I side with Chef and Bascot. I think you're way off course if you think your average SCA knight would be a more effective combatant than a period man-at-arms.
It's obvious from your postings that the SCA is near and dear to you.
Steve
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Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!
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Robert Clark Carruth
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Yep, I have to side with Chef as well. Brennus, you are ignoring the fact that in the later middle ages there were plenty of professional soldiers. This "farmer off to war" notion doesn't mean anything. The argument is obviously about whether or not an SCA fighter could hold his own in real medieval combat against a qualified opponent.
SCA wars are nothing like real combat. Nobody laying on the ground moans and screams for help. Your buddy gets hit and falls down. He doesn't get hit and fall down in pieces. Basically realistic? There are no cavalry, practically no archers compared to a real battlefield and practically no siege engines. You can't push your opponents over. It's not even basically realistic. Most of the basic elements of a medieval battle are missing.
And the point about the hand and shin wasn't that an SCA knight won't think to target them. He won't know how to defend them. The average SCA sword and board stance makes a target of the shin. Most SCA sword technique also assumes the invulnerability of the hand. A medieval combatant would take one look at an SCA fighter in stance and see wide open targets. If you really think that an SCA fighter's years of training and habit are going to magically disappear then I think you are deluding yourself in pursuit of your argument.
Like I said earlier, I think SCA combat can have value as a training tool, getting an individual used to contact, full speed action and a general sense of melee awareness. But it must be combined with training in grappling, full body targetting, weakness targetting, and other techniques that our ancestors perfected and developed in hundreds of years of combat because they worked!
Robert
SCA wars are nothing like real combat. Nobody laying on the ground moans and screams for help. Your buddy gets hit and falls down. He doesn't get hit and fall down in pieces. Basically realistic? There are no cavalry, practically no archers compared to a real battlefield and practically no siege engines. You can't push your opponents over. It's not even basically realistic. Most of the basic elements of a medieval battle are missing.
And the point about the hand and shin wasn't that an SCA knight won't think to target them. He won't know how to defend them. The average SCA sword and board stance makes a target of the shin. Most SCA sword technique also assumes the invulnerability of the hand. A medieval combatant would take one look at an SCA fighter in stance and see wide open targets. If you really think that an SCA fighter's years of training and habit are going to magically disappear then I think you are deluding yourself in pursuit of your argument.
Like I said earlier, I think SCA combat can have value as a training tool, getting an individual used to contact, full speed action and a general sense of melee awareness. But it must be combined with training in grappling, full body targetting, weakness targetting, and other techniques that our ancestors perfected and developed in hundreds of years of combat because they worked!
Robert
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Russ Mitchell
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Kegger: your thread has been totally hijacked... but it's still a good thread.
Let me kick in some stuff here as a vaguely neutral party. I hang out with SCA guys in my area when time allows, have been more or less involved in pulling manuscripts out of dusty European archives (and proofreading some of the translations), am the equivalent of a lineage holder in a Hungarian method, and train in historical, non-sportif savate. (living tradition, western, but early modern).
There is no substitute for sparring. The SCA guys I've played with (Rex Ansteorra and retinue) all have excellent reflexes, good command of space, good stamina, excellent understanding of combinations and forced openings, and fine timing. All of which you need to be a decent fighter, and all of which, lacking, you will make sure you're never a good fighter.
I have seen the wma folks train in a variety of places. Those who did not do what the SCA does -- HIT EACH OTHER -- tend to have very poor/unsafe weapon control at speed, and are generally very poor fighters. (for those of you who know me and know of my bad falling out with HACA, this is not just a swipe at them, I've seen it elsewhere as well).
If you like the training style that Mr. Cvet puts out, GO FOR IT. I have not reviewed it in great depth because my plate's just too full. I really like Baron Duncan, and can manage to get over to his place only a fifth of the time I'd like to...
They all offer different things. Most, 99%, of the wma people get along with each other really well. I am by far the crankiest of the lot. (I think I'm even crankier than Herr Amberger...) SCA fighting is a sport... so's boxing. That doesn't mean that boxing is irrelevant or for wusses, or won't teach you how to move...
What would make these conversations less heated would be more folks taking what Conn and Cvet do, and adding it where desired to add flavor and texture to the folks who feel their SCA game lacking, and for SCA folks to be both welcome **and sufficiently humble** to play in another area entirely. Conn runs his own school, and is doing a fantastic job helping the rest of us get acquainted with what he does. It's up to folks like YOU to decide to what extent you make use of it, and if that means working within the AEMMA structure, I say go for it. The manuscripts are out there, and there's about to be more of them in translation than you can shake a stick at.
Let me kick in some stuff here as a vaguely neutral party. I hang out with SCA guys in my area when time allows, have been more or less involved in pulling manuscripts out of dusty European archives (and proofreading some of the translations), am the equivalent of a lineage holder in a Hungarian method, and train in historical, non-sportif savate. (living tradition, western, but early modern).
There is no substitute for sparring. The SCA guys I've played with (Rex Ansteorra and retinue) all have excellent reflexes, good command of space, good stamina, excellent understanding of combinations and forced openings, and fine timing. All of which you need to be a decent fighter, and all of which, lacking, you will make sure you're never a good fighter.
I have seen the wma folks train in a variety of places. Those who did not do what the SCA does -- HIT EACH OTHER -- tend to have very poor/unsafe weapon control at speed, and are generally very poor fighters. (for those of you who know me and know of my bad falling out with HACA, this is not just a swipe at them, I've seen it elsewhere as well).
If you like the training style that Mr. Cvet puts out, GO FOR IT. I have not reviewed it in great depth because my plate's just too full. I really like Baron Duncan, and can manage to get over to his place only a fifth of the time I'd like to...
They all offer different things. Most, 99%, of the wma people get along with each other really well. I am by far the crankiest of the lot. (I think I'm even crankier than Herr Amberger...) SCA fighting is a sport... so's boxing. That doesn't mean that boxing is irrelevant or for wusses, or won't teach you how to move...
What would make these conversations less heated would be more folks taking what Conn and Cvet do, and adding it where desired to add flavor and texture to the folks who feel their SCA game lacking, and for SCA folks to be both welcome **and sufficiently humble** to play in another area entirely. Conn runs his own school, and is doing a fantastic job helping the rest of us get acquainted with what he does. It's up to folks like YOU to decide to what extent you make use of it, and if that means working within the AEMMA structure, I say go for it. The manuscripts are out there, and there's about to be more of them in translation than you can shake a stick at.
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chef de chambre
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Hi Brennus et all,
I hate to put it this way, but to be blunt, you ought to pick up a book or two and read about the topic of how armies were raised during the middle ages, and some social histories. I could recommend a good list to you - feel free to hit our partial bibliography at www.wolfeargent.com to see some decent titles to look out for.
A man-at-arms is a man doing knight service on horseback, whether he is of noble station or not. The gentry and aristocracy trained for war from childhood, and both hunting (which was a nearly continous year-round activity, pursued often with hand weapons - boarspears and the like) and tourney - were considered training for warfare. Peasants did not participate in tourneys - they were not allowed to, and so would not have this experience. Hunting was considered training precisely because it involved the skills of equestrian activity, and weaponry, and the kill - which was not allowed in the tournament. Hunting was principly an activity of the nobility and gentry.
Professional soldiers appear on the scene in Europe really from the beginning of the Middle ages - William the Bastard brought professional soldiers with him on the conquest, and the Anglo-Saxon huscarles were professional 'feedmen'. In the Wars of Stephen and Matildam, large numbers of Professional soldiers from Flanders were employed. At first, these were mostly Men at arms (heavy cavalry always), seargents, and specialist infantry such as Genoese crossbowmen and 'spears' from Picardy. By the end of the 13th century professional infantry appear in large numbers, spurred on by the growth of towns, and their economic importance, coupled with the desire of the towns to gain 'liberties' from feudal overlords - a very complex phenomenon too extensive to cover here in a brief note. The Hundred years war unltimately saw bands of professional infantry. These men were not peasants or farmers for the most part - at least on the continent. They were middle class artisans from towns in Europe, who for example, due to a variety of social pressures, made artificialy difficult for craftsmen to gain masters status in their trade (a move in some guilds in some locals to force a lengthened apprenticeship to provide cheap labour) took to a seemingly easier life of soldiering, where one could always "win the lottery" in loot and ransoms.
As to Medieval mans attitude to death and killing - suffice it to say it was a much more brutal time and place. In example, on Shrove Teusday it was the custom for schoolboys to bring cocks to school, and the schoolmasters hold cockfights for the boys. A common game was to fling sticks at a chicken until it was stunned, and then prop it up and throw sticks at it until it died. This was considered a proper game for little boys, and good fun. Bearbaiting was viewed with delight by large crowds, and public executions were considered public entertainment.
I would suggest a perusal of Barbara Hanawaults "Growing up in Medieval London", as one of the best readily available and scholarly social histories covering the subject. It really sounds to me like you have absorbed "The Middle Ages as they Should have been", rather than doing any serious study of the subject.
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Bob R.
I hate to put it this way, but to be blunt, you ought to pick up a book or two and read about the topic of how armies were raised during the middle ages, and some social histories. I could recommend a good list to you - feel free to hit our partial bibliography at www.wolfeargent.com to see some decent titles to look out for.
A man-at-arms is a man doing knight service on horseback, whether he is of noble station or not. The gentry and aristocracy trained for war from childhood, and both hunting (which was a nearly continous year-round activity, pursued often with hand weapons - boarspears and the like) and tourney - were considered training for warfare. Peasants did not participate in tourneys - they were not allowed to, and so would not have this experience. Hunting was considered training precisely because it involved the skills of equestrian activity, and weaponry, and the kill - which was not allowed in the tournament. Hunting was principly an activity of the nobility and gentry.
Professional soldiers appear on the scene in Europe really from the beginning of the Middle ages - William the Bastard brought professional soldiers with him on the conquest, and the Anglo-Saxon huscarles were professional 'feedmen'. In the Wars of Stephen and Matildam, large numbers of Professional soldiers from Flanders were employed. At first, these were mostly Men at arms (heavy cavalry always), seargents, and specialist infantry such as Genoese crossbowmen and 'spears' from Picardy. By the end of the 13th century professional infantry appear in large numbers, spurred on by the growth of towns, and their economic importance, coupled with the desire of the towns to gain 'liberties' from feudal overlords - a very complex phenomenon too extensive to cover here in a brief note. The Hundred years war unltimately saw bands of professional infantry. These men were not peasants or farmers for the most part - at least on the continent. They were middle class artisans from towns in Europe, who for example, due to a variety of social pressures, made artificialy difficult for craftsmen to gain masters status in their trade (a move in some guilds in some locals to force a lengthened apprenticeship to provide cheap labour) took to a seemingly easier life of soldiering, where one could always "win the lottery" in loot and ransoms.
As to Medieval mans attitude to death and killing - suffice it to say it was a much more brutal time and place. In example, on Shrove Teusday it was the custom for schoolboys to bring cocks to school, and the schoolmasters hold cockfights for the boys. A common game was to fling sticks at a chicken until it was stunned, and then prop it up and throw sticks at it until it died. This was considered a proper game for little boys, and good fun. Bearbaiting was viewed with delight by large crowds, and public executions were considered public entertainment.
I would suggest a perusal of Barbara Hanawaults "Growing up in Medieval London", as one of the best readily available and scholarly social histories covering the subject. It really sounds to me like you have absorbed "The Middle Ages as they Should have been", rather than doing any serious study of the subject.
------------------
Bob R.
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sarnac
- Archive Member
- Posts: 5874
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- Location: Windsor, ON, Canada
- Contact:
This seems to have turned into a 4th grade pissing contest of "I'm better" No..I'm better"
"NO I'M better"
"NO I'M BETTER"
Damn people.....
Nobody has a monopoly on what is right and what works here....
We are all working towards a common goal and if each of you could get down of your high friggin' horses for a sec...
(except you Bascot...you look too good up there!)
...you would see that both sides are right in many respects, and both are wrong in many respects.
SO... if we would get past the grade school bickering and actually try to work together and come to an understanding... MAYBE things would move forward at a quicker pace for EVERYONE!!!
maybe if the Living History folks would stop being so damn arrogant and acting like they own the rights to the Middle Ages, more people would be interested in what they do...
maybe if the SCA actually took a few minutes to think about the effect that they have on mundanes and others by their inaccuracies they would rethink some of their rules to make it better...
maybe if the guys in AMEEA werent suck complete jerks to me when I went to one of their events, I might have actually stayed...
but they couldntlet me forget how "wrong" I was for being a Scadian, and how "wrong" our fighting was.
maybe people in the SCA will understand the joy of winning crown wearing a harness that is damn close to period for my persona and beating a guy wearing 1/8 in. thick plastic plates tied to a mesh shirt under a tunic and doing it with grace and style and soundly thumping him...
you are all right AND all wrong...
Damn people......
We shouldnt need to this worked up over this!!!!
Its real simple...
WORK TOGETHER!
"NO I'M better"
"NO I'M BETTER"
Damn people.....
Nobody has a monopoly on what is right and what works here....
We are all working towards a common goal and if each of you could get down of your high friggin' horses for a sec...
(except you Bascot...you look too good up there!)
...you would see that both sides are right in many respects, and both are wrong in many respects.
SO... if we would get past the grade school bickering and actually try to work together and come to an understanding... MAYBE things would move forward at a quicker pace for EVERYONE!!!
maybe if the Living History folks would stop being so damn arrogant and acting like they own the rights to the Middle Ages, more people would be interested in what they do...
maybe if the SCA actually took a few minutes to think about the effect that they have on mundanes and others by their inaccuracies they would rethink some of their rules to make it better...
maybe if the guys in AMEEA werent suck complete jerks to me when I went to one of their events, I might have actually stayed...
but they couldntlet me forget how "wrong" I was for being a Scadian, and how "wrong" our fighting was.
maybe people in the SCA will understand the joy of winning crown wearing a harness that is damn close to period for my persona and beating a guy wearing 1/8 in. thick plastic plates tied to a mesh shirt under a tunic and doing it with grace and style and soundly thumping him...
you are all right AND all wrong...
Damn people......
We shouldnt need to this worked up over this!!!!
Its real simple...
WORK TOGETHER!
-
Steve S.
- Archive Member
- Posts: 13327
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Huntsville, AL
- Contact:
"maybe if the Living History folks would stop being so damn arrogant and acting like they own the rights to the Middle Ages, more people would be interested in what they do..."
In what way are the "living history folks" being arrogant?
Steve
------------------
Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!
In what way are the "living history folks" being arrogant?
Steve
------------------
Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!
-
chef de chambre
- Archive Member
- Posts: 28806
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Nashua, N.H. U.S.
- Contact:
Hi All,
In order to steer this ship more on course and off the shoals she finds herself against, I thought I should put a point forward, and hopefully cut at this gordians knot.
Regarding historical combat vs. martial sport-
We have many good examples of manuals with historical fighting appropriate to the time period portrayed coming to light, being published, and being worked out as systems by martial artists of all sorts. This much I think we can all agree upon.
Is it not better to take these systems left to us (ignoring Talhoffer and his ilk - the picture notes or lyrical mental notes memorised to prompt the student - there are more complete German systems extant - Ringneck will be published shortly), that we know were historically used, and were successful - in most cases, the masters who wrote these faced combat on and off the battlefield for a number of years - take these systems and try to apply them in whatever context we are trying to simulate Medieval combat? SCA, or otherwise?
The point is, we know that, for a fact, some Medieval soldiers/knights/duelists/brawlers fought using these techniques. Therefore, if we study and apply them, we will be researching, or "recreating" historical combat forms. This is what I mean by Historical Western Martial Arts.
To ignore them, and to come up with new forms of combat - whatever your flavour, be it rattan, or steel, is to create a new martial sport. It is not, and cannot be deemed historical, because the system is newly invented. We can postulate all we like "that maybe somebody used this form of combat historicaly", but in the end, all this is speculation, a fancy.
What we know about Medieval combat is contained in these manuals, and the only other evidence we have is either in objects - such as the arms and armour left to posterity by these people, and forensic evidence from the few Medieval battlefield graves uncovered and examined scientificaly.
To begin to understand the subject is to study these three topics, and equally important, the society that created the arms, social structure, and circumstance of use. Only then can we truely have the beginning of comprehensive knowledge.
In my humble opinion, the tack AEMMA has currently taken - to divorce the combat from it's historical context, is to gouge out one of their eyes in the search for knowledge and truth. It would be equally foolish of the SCA to ignore these manuals, and to humbly accept that therin is contained the sum total knowledge of personal Medieval combat. Since the study is in it's infancy, it is certainly not too late to jump on the bandwagon, and be a pioneer along with the rest of us.
I am not arguing that "we are better" - we are different, and I really don't give a damn about that. Rather, I beseach you as fellow travelers, interested in things "medieval", to join metaphorical hands with us, and search for knowledge and the truth. Some of us already doing this are 'martial artists', some are reenactors, some are 'historical interpretors, and some are SCAdians, and more than Bob Charron.
We all have preconcieved notions about things. I had to unlearn the sabre and rapier and dagger to pick up a longsword properly. I have had the privilige of holding in my own grubby, little (but worshipful, in the Medieval sense) paws a selection of actual Medieval swords, a variety of reproductions of varying quality - from excellent to poor, and wasters, and rattan. Please believe me when I tell you that -
Swords do not behave like ratten. There is an incredible variety of swords for gods sake, from the late middle ages alone - some designed for cutting work from horseback, some as cutters on foot, some as thrusters, for foot use, for horse use, some combining cut-and-thrust. Each catagory subtly different from the others. A flexible stick can only be the roughest approxomation. This is not to say it can't be a useful tool, to some extent, but it is not a very good representation of what it is supposed to be.
Anyhow, I hope this steers this post back on track.
------------------
Bob R.
In order to steer this ship more on course and off the shoals she finds herself against, I thought I should put a point forward, and hopefully cut at this gordians knot.
Regarding historical combat vs. martial sport-
We have many good examples of manuals with historical fighting appropriate to the time period portrayed coming to light, being published, and being worked out as systems by martial artists of all sorts. This much I think we can all agree upon.
Is it not better to take these systems left to us (ignoring Talhoffer and his ilk - the picture notes or lyrical mental notes memorised to prompt the student - there are more complete German systems extant - Ringneck will be published shortly), that we know were historically used, and were successful - in most cases, the masters who wrote these faced combat on and off the battlefield for a number of years - take these systems and try to apply them in whatever context we are trying to simulate Medieval combat? SCA, or otherwise?
The point is, we know that, for a fact, some Medieval soldiers/knights/duelists/brawlers fought using these techniques. Therefore, if we study and apply them, we will be researching, or "recreating" historical combat forms. This is what I mean by Historical Western Martial Arts.
To ignore them, and to come up with new forms of combat - whatever your flavour, be it rattan, or steel, is to create a new martial sport. It is not, and cannot be deemed historical, because the system is newly invented. We can postulate all we like "that maybe somebody used this form of combat historicaly", but in the end, all this is speculation, a fancy.
What we know about Medieval combat is contained in these manuals, and the only other evidence we have is either in objects - such as the arms and armour left to posterity by these people, and forensic evidence from the few Medieval battlefield graves uncovered and examined scientificaly.
To begin to understand the subject is to study these three topics, and equally important, the society that created the arms, social structure, and circumstance of use. Only then can we truely have the beginning of comprehensive knowledge.
In my humble opinion, the tack AEMMA has currently taken - to divorce the combat from it's historical context, is to gouge out one of their eyes in the search for knowledge and truth. It would be equally foolish of the SCA to ignore these manuals, and to humbly accept that therin is contained the sum total knowledge of personal Medieval combat. Since the study is in it's infancy, it is certainly not too late to jump on the bandwagon, and be a pioneer along with the rest of us.
I am not arguing that "we are better" - we are different, and I really don't give a damn about that. Rather, I beseach you as fellow travelers, interested in things "medieval", to join metaphorical hands with us, and search for knowledge and the truth. Some of us already doing this are 'martial artists', some are reenactors, some are 'historical interpretors, and some are SCAdians, and more than Bob Charron.
We all have preconcieved notions about things. I had to unlearn the sabre and rapier and dagger to pick up a longsword properly. I have had the privilige of holding in my own grubby, little (but worshipful, in the Medieval sense) paws a selection of actual Medieval swords, a variety of reproductions of varying quality - from excellent to poor, and wasters, and rattan. Please believe me when I tell you that -
Swords do not behave like ratten. There is an incredible variety of swords for gods sake, from the late middle ages alone - some designed for cutting work from horseback, some as cutters on foot, some as thrusters, for foot use, for horse use, some combining cut-and-thrust. Each catagory subtly different from the others. A flexible stick can only be the roughest approxomation. This is not to say it can't be a useful tool, to some extent, but it is not a very good representation of what it is supposed to be.
Anyhow, I hope this steers this post back on track.
------------------
Bob R.
Thanks Sarnac!
If they didn't mention the SCA at all, it might help at these living history groups, HWA whatever and AEMMA (I'm SO glad there isn't a "N" between the A and the E!! ).
The comparison is not needed.
If you compare the SCA to your group (unfavorably) you unnecessarily alienate those in the SCA who are in attendance. Just show what you know. If it is documented and good, we'll enjoy it, learn from it, and suggest it to our friends.
Now, I know that locally the living history groups are rather enjoyed by the SCA. Quite a few of the local SCA (Tacoma, Washington) sees the living history groups as a model to live up to. Honestly. Our local Baron studies history extensively and truly wishes to become more “period correctâ€
If they didn't mention the SCA at all, it might help at these living history groups, HWA whatever and AEMMA (I'm SO glad there isn't a "N" between the A and the E!!
).The comparison is not needed.
If you compare the SCA to your group (unfavorably) you unnecessarily alienate those in the SCA who are in attendance. Just show what you know. If it is documented and good, we'll enjoy it, learn from it, and suggest it to our friends.
Now, I know that locally the living history groups are rather enjoyed by the SCA. Quite a few of the local SCA (Tacoma, Washington) sees the living history groups as a model to live up to. Honestly. Our local Baron studies history extensively and truly wishes to become more “period correctâ€
-
Vitus von Atzinger
- Archive Member
- Posts: 14039
- Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Louisville, Ky. USA
Bob R. wrote-
"Swords do not behave like rattan. There is an incredible variety of swords for gods sake, from the late middle ages alone - some designed for cutting work from horseback, some as cutters on foot, some as thrusters, for foot use, for horse use, some combining cut-and-thrust. Each catagory subtly different from the others. A flexible stick can only be the roughest approxomation. This is not to say it can't be a useful tool, to some extent, but it is not a very good representation of what it is supposed to be."
Chef-
Do wooden batons, whalebone swords, rebated steel swords, wasters, Rene-style maces- do any of these things behave like a steel sword? Do any of these tools behave like the others? All I am trying to say here is that most SCA people are trying to practice tournament combat. There were a great variety of rules employed in the period, and there were a great variety of weapons used- you know this. There were mounted tournaments, foot-combats, formal deeds of arms with weapons of peace and weapons of war. The variety is staggering.
The SCA system of combat is just another variety, and the system that the Tournament Companies use is pretty close to a few documentable medieval models- and is VERY close to the spirit of the foot tourney. I can do any of the moves that I use in a Pas with real weapons, but some of the fectbuch stuff would be inappropriate at a tourney. It doesn't matter that my tournament weapon doesn't behave exactly like a real sword- because real swords were not always used in tournaments. Medieval people found no shame in using mock weapons in tournament, why should I? Why does the nature of my weapon make what I am doing with my body,in my armour, invalid? I am not trying to employ murderous techniques that would be more appropriate in a judicial duel or in a battle to the death- I am fighting in tournaments.
Again, it doesn't matter that my rattan baton behaves differently than my steel weapons- the difference is not so great that the techniques cannot cross over. A whalebone sword doesn't act like a steel sword, nor does a waster, nor does a Rene-mace, but I can pick up any of them and do all the same moves. The only difference is in the effect of the weapon. I would not bother to do certain tourney moves in a duel to the death- if the man were fully armoured. I would half-sword, or draw my dagger, or beat them down with my pommel.
But tournament moves would work very well if I wanted to kill unarmoured men, or beat down an enemy knight to force a surrender and ransom. The fact that a person is fighting with a rattan stick doesn't automatically make everything they do with it ineffective and unmedieval. I know people who could knock you out -through your helmet- with a rattan stick. With a mace or heavy estoc would this not happen just as easily? Is this not medieval? You can read in the chronicles "..and the sound of those swords and hammers falling on the helmets could be heard all the way to Poitiers". Forcing a man to surrender, or rendering him incapable of defending himself were very typical techniques in the Middle Ages- not everyone intended to stick the point of their sword into a vunerable spot, because a dead knight can pay no ransom. The KO and capture was a very desirable thing.
To imply that we would be "left in the dust" because we don't intend to make the fectbuch's the entire focus of what we do was insulting and arrogant. The fectbuchs do not seem to be about tournament combat. Sir Geoffroi de Charney said-
"....because War includes jousting with the point of the lance, striking with
the edge of the sword as in a tournament, and attacking with the swordthrust
as War demands.."
If people like you, Bascot and SOFC are no longer interested inthe style of tournament combat that the SCA is doing- fine. Go do a different type of tournament. If nobody is getting maimed or killed- it's still tournament play. However, since I will use fechtuch moves, continue to get better harness and equipment (inspired by the Living History movement), fight in Pas and SCA "Wars", utilizing whatever I can from Talhoffer, Delibri and Ringeck- how the hell can you say I will be left in the dust, just because I have tape on my baton? Tape looks stupid, I agree. But wasters break bones, steel can do worse, and I can do the same moves with a Hockey Stick or a crow bar or a Del Tin.
You deny the validity of our system of tourney all the time, and thus deny the validity of our prowess- because of a duct-taped stick? None of the sword styles you described behave exactly like one another, so what's the difference? In tournament, lethal techniques were not allowed- that is a given. Obvious. We know that people beat each other down off horses with swords, people were knocked silly, sometimes thrusts were not allowed. How is this different than an SCA pas?
You said we are being left in the dust, but I can't understand how you can justify this statement. We know almost NOTHING about the authors of the fechtbuchs. There are no details concerning their careers as tournament fighters. In my opinion, they were masters who were employed by gentlemen who needed guidance because they were about to enter formal duels where there were no rules. Most medieval combat was tournament combat, and we know good and well that there *were* rules. I am being left in the dust because I am not training for unarmoured sword fights or judicial duels? Are you going to be doing either of these things? Why is this type of training so important to people who wish to FIGHT in tournaments? Your comments just prove to me that you like the safety that comes with hiding behind techniques that you can never use against a man who intends to kill YOU as well. It's safe. Your armour will not get dented up. Feel insulted? Feel slighted? Doesn't feel good, does it? AEMMA know ALOT about medieval combat, and I have seen video of them fighting. I know many guys who have fought at the Symposium tournaments- the intensity isn't any different than mid-level SCA, and it isn't any more dangerous.
What is missing is the horrible duct tape- that's about it. Other than that it looks like just another Pas. Funny, I don't see you fighting in any of these pictures. Yeah, we are being left in the dust, and our weapons don't act like steel ones. Neither do wasters or Clements beloved foam monstrosities. What this is about is duct tape. I will be using more and more fectbuch stuff in the lists, and I will be sure to tell you what doesn't work when the opponent is trying to hit you back.
Stop insulting me, I am one of the biggest champions of research and authenticity in the Society.
-Vitus
[This message has been edited by Vitus (edited 12-19-2001).]
"Swords do not behave like rattan. There is an incredible variety of swords for gods sake, from the late middle ages alone - some designed for cutting work from horseback, some as cutters on foot, some as thrusters, for foot use, for horse use, some combining cut-and-thrust. Each catagory subtly different from the others. A flexible stick can only be the roughest approxomation. This is not to say it can't be a useful tool, to some extent, but it is not a very good representation of what it is supposed to be."
Chef-
Do wooden batons, whalebone swords, rebated steel swords, wasters, Rene-style maces- do any of these things behave like a steel sword? Do any of these tools behave like the others? All I am trying to say here is that most SCA people are trying to practice tournament combat. There were a great variety of rules employed in the period, and there were a great variety of weapons used- you know this. There were mounted tournaments, foot-combats, formal deeds of arms with weapons of peace and weapons of war. The variety is staggering.
The SCA system of combat is just another variety, and the system that the Tournament Companies use is pretty close to a few documentable medieval models- and is VERY close to the spirit of the foot tourney. I can do any of the moves that I use in a Pas with real weapons, but some of the fectbuch stuff would be inappropriate at a tourney. It doesn't matter that my tournament weapon doesn't behave exactly like a real sword- because real swords were not always used in tournaments. Medieval people found no shame in using mock weapons in tournament, why should I? Why does the nature of my weapon make what I am doing with my body,in my armour, invalid? I am not trying to employ murderous techniques that would be more appropriate in a judicial duel or in a battle to the death- I am fighting in tournaments.
Again, it doesn't matter that my rattan baton behaves differently than my steel weapons- the difference is not so great that the techniques cannot cross over. A whalebone sword doesn't act like a steel sword, nor does a waster, nor does a Rene-mace, but I can pick up any of them and do all the same moves. The only difference is in the effect of the weapon. I would not bother to do certain tourney moves in a duel to the death- if the man were fully armoured. I would half-sword, or draw my dagger, or beat them down with my pommel.
But tournament moves would work very well if I wanted to kill unarmoured men, or beat down an enemy knight to force a surrender and ransom. The fact that a person is fighting with a rattan stick doesn't automatically make everything they do with it ineffective and unmedieval. I know people who could knock you out -through your helmet- with a rattan stick. With a mace or heavy estoc would this not happen just as easily? Is this not medieval? You can read in the chronicles "..and the sound of those swords and hammers falling on the helmets could be heard all the way to Poitiers". Forcing a man to surrender, or rendering him incapable of defending himself were very typical techniques in the Middle Ages- not everyone intended to stick the point of their sword into a vunerable spot, because a dead knight can pay no ransom. The KO and capture was a very desirable thing.
To imply that we would be "left in the dust" because we don't intend to make the fectbuch's the entire focus of what we do was insulting and arrogant. The fectbuchs do not seem to be about tournament combat. Sir Geoffroi de Charney said-
"....because War includes jousting with the point of the lance, striking with
the edge of the sword as in a tournament, and attacking with the swordthrust
as War demands.."
If people like you, Bascot and SOFC are no longer interested inthe style of tournament combat that the SCA is doing- fine. Go do a different type of tournament. If nobody is getting maimed or killed- it's still tournament play. However, since I will use fechtuch moves, continue to get better harness and equipment (inspired by the Living History movement), fight in Pas and SCA "Wars", utilizing whatever I can from Talhoffer, Delibri and Ringeck- how the hell can you say I will be left in the dust, just because I have tape on my baton? Tape looks stupid, I agree. But wasters break bones, steel can do worse, and I can do the same moves with a Hockey Stick or a crow bar or a Del Tin.
You deny the validity of our system of tourney all the time, and thus deny the validity of our prowess- because of a duct-taped stick? None of the sword styles you described behave exactly like one another, so what's the difference? In tournament, lethal techniques were not allowed- that is a given. Obvious. We know that people beat each other down off horses with swords, people were knocked silly, sometimes thrusts were not allowed. How is this different than an SCA pas?
You said we are being left in the dust, but I can't understand how you can justify this statement. We know almost NOTHING about the authors of the fechtbuchs. There are no details concerning their careers as tournament fighters. In my opinion, they were masters who were employed by gentlemen who needed guidance because they were about to enter formal duels where there were no rules. Most medieval combat was tournament combat, and we know good and well that there *were* rules. I am being left in the dust because I am not training for unarmoured sword fights or judicial duels? Are you going to be doing either of these things? Why is this type of training so important to people who wish to FIGHT in tournaments? Your comments just prove to me that you like the safety that comes with hiding behind techniques that you can never use against a man who intends to kill YOU as well. It's safe. Your armour will not get dented up. Feel insulted? Feel slighted? Doesn't feel good, does it? AEMMA know ALOT about medieval combat, and I have seen video of them fighting. I know many guys who have fought at the Symposium tournaments- the intensity isn't any different than mid-level SCA, and it isn't any more dangerous.
What is missing is the horrible duct tape- that's about it. Other than that it looks like just another Pas. Funny, I don't see you fighting in any of these pictures. Yeah, we are being left in the dust, and our weapons don't act like steel ones. Neither do wasters or Clements beloved foam monstrosities. What this is about is duct tape. I will be using more and more fectbuch stuff in the lists, and I will be sure to tell you what doesn't work when the opponent is trying to hit you back.
Stop insulting me, I am one of the biggest champions of research and authenticity in the Society.
-Vitus
[This message has been edited by Vitus (edited 12-19-2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Steve -SoFC-:
<B>"maybe if the Living History folks would stop being so damn arrogant and acting like they own the rights to the Middle Ages, more people would be interested in what they do..."
In what way are the "living history folks" being arrogant?
Steve
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Still have a question?
<B>"maybe if the Living History folks would stop being so damn arrogant and acting like they own the rights to the Middle Ages, more people would be interested in what they do..."
In what way are the "living history folks" being arrogant?
Steve
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Still have a question?