My first attempt at armouring (pic heavy)

[Eamonn]

My brother in law gave me two giant sheets of 18ga stainless he had lying around his house when he found out about the SCA and that I was interested in making my own armour. I decided that I should practice with aluminum first.

I decided to start with a demi gauntlet, since it required almost no leather, and I don't have any at the moment. So after making myself a dishing stump over the weekend, I made this tonight. Mine is the one on the right, based on the one to the left.

[img]http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/898/sd531529.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3331/sd531530.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5108/sd531531.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/421/sd531532.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1165/sd531533.jpg[/img]

I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. As I said, I don't have any leather right now, so I used some rope for the strap. And I had JUST enough rivets lying around to do this. Looks like I know what I'm buying next. Rivets and leather.

Comments and criticisms appreciated.

[GuntherofOrkney]

the cuff doesnt bell out enough like the original. It needs to bell out alot since the wrist only hinges one way it needs to be big enough to move your wrist around and have enough clearance even with arm armor on.

[Eamonn]

Thanks for the advice, but the cuff has PLENTY of room to move. The one I patterned it from had almost too much. That's why I changed it up a bit. But I'll keep that in mind next time.

[Pitbull Armory]

Hi there. Welcome to the AA, In this forum id suggest you think hard about any criticism you get on your armor before you dismiss it, even if you dont understand it at first. I find I learn the most about armor from my hardest critics. His advice was dead on, the cuff needs more flare, its a tube. There isnt enough room for good wrist movement even if the wrist was properly articulated. I agree the one you copied seems to have a bit much flare, somewhere between what you made and what you copied would be great I think. To make it flare you just draw the front line of your cuff in a large curve instead of a straight line. Leave the rivets a little long and loose for more wrist movement too. Overall it looks good for a first try though. Search scrap leather on ebay and youll see the seller dangerous threads, he sells good 8-9 oz black leather in different sized batches, its great stuff. Thanks for the pics, post more if you get time.

Take care

Pitbull

[Eamonn]

I definitely agree that the cuff looks a bit tube-ish. But, it is large enough to give good motion. I even tried it with my vambraces to make sure.

Does it look good? No. Is it functional? Yes. But, this is something I am going to work on fixing next time around.

Not trying to sound defensive, I really do appreciate the criticism.

[Pitbull Armory]

No problem at all, A good first try though for sure. I added more info to my post that may be of some use to you on your next set of gaunts. If you need some patterns I can help you out, try talbotsfineacessories.com for some awesome armor patterns too.

Take care

PB

[Eamonn]

I'll take your word for it. I didn't mean to seem like I was dismissing the advice you and Gunther were giving. I wasn't. I do want to put more flare in the cuff, and I'm glad he pointed it out. I was just stating that with my vambraces on, and that gauntlet, I didn't suffer from lack of motion.

Thanks for the tip on the leather by the way. I checked out the items he has listed, and there are a few I think I might grab.

[Pitbull Armory]

Hi there, No worries, My advice is normally second rate ,and its up to you what you dismiss or soak in. I just wanted you to know I seem to learn the most from my critics, and that I agreed with G about the cuff. Need any armoring tools? Patterns? Let me know if I can be of any service.

Take care

Pitbull

[The Iron Dwarf]

pitbull may say his advice is second rate but he is just being modest, he knows a lot.
he can also point you to some great tools

[Eamonn]

Slight case of insomnia tonight. Figured it'd be better to do something than just lay in bed not sleeping, so I thought I'd check the archive.

Iron Dwarf: I've been lurking here a while, and I noticed that about him. He doesn't always chime in, but when he does he's spot on.

PB and G: I'm not dismissing what you and Gunther are saying. I really hope it doesn't seem like I am. Putting more flare in the cuff IS something I am going to do in the future. I was simply saying that in this instance, the diameter of the cuff was large enough that the lack of flare wasn't much of an issue. Maybe I should have just left it at "Thanks, I'll do that next time," but I'm more of a full disclosure kind of guy.

So you can see what I mean, I took some more pics with my vambraces on.

[img]http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/2047/sd531540.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/6858/sd531539.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/1017/sd531538.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/2702/sd531536.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/4387/sd531535.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/8709/sd531534.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/5035/sd531542.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3275/sd531541.jpg[/img]

The vambraces DO restrict the motion of my wrist slightly, but the demi doesn't impede me any further. I've already remedied this though, by ordering some Stonekeep stainless and splinted leather floating elbows. Maybe if the vambs DIDN'T get in the way, the demi would? I don't know, I guess I'll find out when I get my new ones.

But, the short of it is this:

Thanks, I'll do that next time.

[Angusm0628]

Eammon,
Next time you get into this neck of the Woods. I have patterns you can copy and take home with you.

Gunther and PB know their stuff for lines etc. Once you've started working on several of these, you will be able to interpret the lines and shape of what should be..Yer an artist (musician) and will recognize em...Something about you left sided brain people I guess

Like I said on the phone.. For a "Very first piece", You did good for yourself.

[schreiber]

I think they look like a lot of later period gauntlet cuffs look. Few of them have a flare like the earlier 14thc gaunts. I like the way they look.

I see how it works now: the entire thing is a little big. There's room for the hand to move within the gauntlet, as opposed to the gaunt moving with the hand. I think if it was sized down to fit the hand more snugly, you could then use some sliding rivet articulations to get that amount of movement back, and also keep the look.

I'd also like to add some words of encouragement: you've gone from zero to trying to tackle one of the hardest projects in armoring. And you've done really well. I think you should do this more often!

[Eamonn]

With my next one I am definitely going to put more flare in the cuff, as I am going to focus on making it fit my hand better. For the first attempt I was mostly just trying to learn what I could from doing it. I learned a lot from what worked, and more from what didn't.

I don't think my pattern was the problem though. As it has that curve that Pitbull was talking about. I'll post pictures of my pattern later today and see what you guys think of it. I made the pattern for my cuff off of my Bokalo full gauntlets. That being said, I don't want that to reflect Bokalo's work. Rather, my interpretation of it. I may have left the top curve too shallow. It was a little hard to get the shape right with the other articulation plates in the way. I just didn't execute it as well as it should have been.

I think it's largely due to the fact that I don't have a horn on my anvil, and once I got the cuff in a mostly circular shape, it got harder and harder to position it for shaping. I'm fixing this problem either this weekend or early next week by cutting a horn shape in the 2' piece of railroad track I use.

Thank you for everything that's been said. All of it are things I will take with me for next time.

[Pitbull Armory]

Hi Eamon, again you dismiss important advice that is surely true, heres your quote,

I don't think my pattern was the problem though. As it has that curve that Pitbull was talking about. I'll post pictures of my pattern later today and see what you guys think of it. I made the pattern for my cuff off of my Bokalo full gauntlets. That being said, I don't want that to reflect Bokalo's work. Rather, my interpretation of it. I may have left the top curve too shallow. It was a little hard to get the shape right with the other articulation plates in the way. I just didn't execute it as well as it should have been.

I think it's largely due to the fact that I don't have a horn on my anvil, and once I got the cuff in a mostly circular shape, it got harder and harder to position it for shaping. I'm fixing this problem either this weekend or early next week by cutting a horn shape in the 2' piece of railroad track I use.

The pattern is responsible for 98 percent of the problems, If it has the curve I mentioned its not nearly enough curve. Also if you only use one rivet in the front edge to close the cuff instead of 2, you can adjust the flare alot because the single rivet acts like a hinge, alowing you to open or close up the flare of the cuff to where you like it. Theres no shaping on a cuff except to roll it, (on basic stuff) the rest of the shape comes from the pattern. Add 3 scallops to the front edge of your cuff too, and thin the width on the bottom side ends. It will add more mobility and good looks.

What shreiber said about later tube like cuffs is true, its just that from what ive seen they only cover the top of your arm in those examples, not all the way around. Or ive seen hinged cuffs like that too once with a closure like a vambrace.

I think your metal shaping skills are good and thats why im pointing this stuff out to you, no offence ment at all. I cant wait to see the next set of gaunts.

Take care

Pitbull

[Eamonn]

Here are the patterns I made for the cuff. The first one is made from the original demi. I thought it was kind of extreme, which is why I made the second. It has a much shallower curve. It has room for some flare though.

Also, the two ends don't quite line up right, shown in the third pic. If I'm understanding my spatial reasoning correctly, the two ends should be parallel, like in the 4th pic. I put some red tape on there to make it easier to see. Maybe it's not enough room though, and I need to add more curve to the pattern anyway.

Original cuff pattern.
[img]http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/741/sd531545v.jpg[/img]

The one I made.
[img]http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/9783/sd531546.jpg[/img]

How the ends DO line up.
[img]http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/1862/sd531547.jpg[/img]

How I think they SHOULD.
[img]http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/9311/sd531548.jpg[/img]

[Eamonn]

Pitbull, I'll take your advice and adjust my pattern. I get what you're saying about thinning the bottom side edge, but I'm not sure what you mean by scalloping the front edge. Could you clarify a bit?

[Pitbull Armory]

Hi there, Sure, ill get a pic of my cuff pattern for you in a second here. Its by no means a great example of a cuff but it does look ok and works great. I notice your pattern is different on each side too, always try to fold your patterns on a center crease and cut out both sides at the same time so they turn out identical.

If you just use the front rivet for the cuff closure instead of both, (between the red tape) Youll be able to flare the cuff out with your hands to where you like it.

Heres the pics, The articulation rivets go in each point on the front edge, the second pics shows it folded in half like when I cut it out.

Thank you Angus and Iron Dwarf *Salute

Have a good weekend

Pitbull

[Eamonn]

I had to look at the demis you have on your site to see exactly how the scallops work, but they look really nice. I'll definitely try that out next time. And I get what you're saying about the pattern being symmetrical too. The cuff I patterned from is not, and I liked how it looked, it put the point closer to the outside of the arm. But I'll try it your way and see how it works out for me. I'll post pics when I get around to working on another demi, but I'm probably going to hold off on that until I get more rivets.

But, I have started working on a set of spaulders and knee cops. Will post when finished with them. I'm taking a bit more time with them and trying to do more plannishing. The should cops have gone well so far, so I'm optimistic that they'll be a step up in quality from this demi.

Thanks again Pitbull. And I'm really sorry I came across as dismissing what you were saying, it wasn't intentional.

[mattmaus]

I am an old feeble minded fool, and as armoring goes, just a tinker or a hack, so my advice may not be worth much...

So they say the cuff isn't flared enough...

and you say that you have plenty of motion.

Well... generaly I think lots of cuffs geared for SCA use are more flared than they need to be. I've seen some that look like humongous washers with a hand stuck through them....

On the otherhand, they do need flared ENOUGH to give motion.

Looking at the pictures of your hand, moving inside the demi...

and that's really the problem then... your hand is moving INSIDE the gauntlet, rather than moving and the gauntlet going along for the ride.

It may be another fit of nyquil induced lunacy, but I think the gauntlet overall could be shrunk by 10-15% maybe even 20%, and then put on the very flared cuff.

So.... your cuff isn't flared enough, but it's not limiting motion because the whole thing is too big.

That's how it looks to me anyhow.

[Angusm0628]

I am an old feeble minded fool, and as armoring goes, just a tinker or a hack, so my advice may not be worth much...

As they say "horseshit", Matt... I've lusted after more than one piece you've put out there for us to drool over..

[Eamonn]

Yeah, the whole thing is a bit too big. For my first attempt I just wanted to keep it the same size as the one I was copying so I had an easier time keeping the shape in my head, and just modify the cuff. Trying to keep it simple with only one alteration at a time. I already planned on making a smaller one that would fit my hand better and would need the flare.

[bohdon]

I don't have near the experience these other guys do, but i thought i'd chip in a few cents for two reasons. 1: i'v been working mainly on gauntlets for a while now and 2: i see things from a "newbie" point of view also.

i thought i'd just point out that i still don't have more then 5 tools in my arsonal but if you can think, there is always a creative way to find or make what you need. you don't really need a horn on an anvil or even an anvil to make alot of the armour these guys do. But it certanily makes it much easier. I think the most important thing when starting out in armour crafting is to be patient. if you rush into it all it will only be a big blunder, trust me i know. i thought i'd post a few pics of the pattern i use for my gauntlets and then whatit looks like after. i hope this helps.

[Pitbull Armory]

Hi Eamonn, No problem post pics when you get time. Its ok if you dismiss stuff I say though, I meant the info from the AA in general. Plus I was just agreeing with Gunther. There are so many good points of view here and skill levels from beginner up to Master armorers, making it easy to learn ALOT in a short time if we just focus on soaking it up.


Good Luck

PB

[mattmaus]

As they say "horseshit", Matt... I've lusted after more than one piece you've put out there for us to drool over..

Fair enough... but how much of that has been demi gaunts?