I hate the SCA, the resurrection

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Tue Jan 08, 2002 3:21 pm

Like I said, it's the rudeness, not the accuracy that is frowned upon.

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Tue Jan 08, 2002 5:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Aaron:
[B]Howdy,
What I find VERY annoying is the overbearing opinion that someone is VERY WRONG and a social malcontent to try an authentic rig. I like authenticity -- I don't believe I should be publicly ridiculed for it.

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I don't belive this to be the norm, truely all my bad experincs with in the SCA have been from the opesite end with being looked down upon for NOT being very authentic. This is NOT a good thing either but it is what I have seen. You have to make allowances for the new person to get up to speed in thier garb and manner.

quote:
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I donâ€™t like that newbies are treated poorly. Newbies are the life-blood of the SCA (or any organization) and need to be taken under someoneâ€™s wing and encouraged.

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Aside from the Auth. Nazi's, I this is mostly a local group problem some groups are very good at welcoming new people and others are very closed to newbies, and that's a shame on them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to take exception to this. I joined the SCA through Hank R. in MRL without ever knowing about Sternfield. I showed up after meeting our current baron and another gentle at St. Mary's Ren. Faire and at Thorntown. When I walked in, only Templar Bob ooo'd and ahh'd my armour. Most of the rest looked at me with scorn. Duke Palymar of the Two Baronies was, and is to this day down right hostile to me. He wouldn't pass my full-plate steel harness because the bevor locked with a strap on my chin on my close helm, and didn't have a "chinstrap", per se.

I agree that the SCA is:
1) Hostile to anyone in full authentic kit.
2) Hostile to anyone new who looks like they might upset the heirarchy.
3) The "little people" of the SCA are highly appreciative and very nice, but are too timid to deal with the peerage and their swaggering.

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Tue Jan 08, 2002 5:49 pm

I just feel the need after some recent debates to point out when people who are interested in authenticity are treated predjudicialy
- Quoth Torvald I think I'll keep a running tab of them for a month or so, and make a general report at the end of it.
*********************************
I don't think you're hearing the phrase authenticity nazi the way these folks are saying it.
I tend to do "skin out" costuming for non fighting parts of events. I don't think that there's any modern equiptment showing on, or under my armor for tournaments, and I've kept it to one time period.
I find it very easy to speak to new members about how and what they're doing (equipment wise), and encourage upgrades to a more authentic look. At some point I would hate to add up the cost of the "scrap" leather, steel, and time I've handed out. My only request to them is that when they replace/retire useable armor they throw it onto the "loaner" shelf of my shop for the next wave of new folks to get their hands on.
I do not believe that I'm all that unusual in my approach to the SCA. I like a high level of authenticity in equiptment, and attitude in the SCA, and do what is possable with the time, skills and rank I have to make it easier for new members to learn.
A costume nazi, authenticity police, thread gestapa (my personal favorite) are people (usually peers, or lampreys attached to peers) who seem to come to the SCA for no other purpose than to mock, degrade, insult, and humiliate anyone whose equiptment is not up to their standards, and who while being corrected did not show the proper remorse for offending the middle ages (or some such rot) and even worse were not properly greatgful for the time spent by this obviously skilled, important person taking the time out of their schedule to correct such horrifying mistakes.
I will say that I prefer the company of newer members working at learning a craft, and improving their overall impression, to that of older members who have forgotten the sheer joy of learning a skill, and who now sit on olympus to make it easier to spit on everyone else (There is a parable about a Pharasee and a tax collector visiting the temple I've always liked).
Kind of the reverse to the story of the oxblood swordbelt posted earlier on this chain - Early on in my time in the SCA I was at a Twelfth night celebration, with a few friends - the sum total of our knowledge would light a match maybe. A costume Laurel shredded my friend Kathy for about five minites, never slowing down enough to allow Kathy to reply to any of her statements. When the political reeducation was over the Laurel asked Kathy for her opinion which Kathy gave as "I would rather be as ill dressed as I am right now than as ill mannered as you are."
Regrettable Kathy is no longer around, and the Laurel is still slithering about spilling bile behind her.
People in the SCA do not object to authenticity, they object to vile manners, whether from a bunny fur barbarian or an elizabethan costume Laurel.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Tue Jan 08, 2002 6:18 pm

Bascot -

On your 4 points -

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I agree that the SCA is:
1) Hostile to anyone in full authentic kit.
2) Hostile to anyone new who looks like they might upset the heirarchy.
3) The "little people" of the SCA are highly appreciative and very nice, but are too timid to deal with the peerage and their swaggering.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) Not in any case I have seen, as long as their armour meets SCA and Kingdom Marshallate Guidlines. Now admittedly, the Midrealm rules were pretty anal up until recently, so you might have felt the helm was perfectly safe - but it didn't meet the requirements set by the SCA. (BTW - most rules on armour for the Middle are now stated as "SCA Minimums"). Now if your armour DOSEN'T pass inspection, you can either A) Modify it, B) Appeal to the next Marshall up the chain, or C) Not fight that day, or in that particular kit.

Even if your armour is period, if it doesn't meet the SCA Rules, you shouldn't fight in it. And the Marshall would be right to fail it - he can be taken to court if you get hurt, as can the event steward, the Earl Marshal, and the Crown.

2) Really? If this is the case, why don't we continue to use freon helms? Again, it might be different in my neck of the woods, but the "rabble rousers" of 5 years ago are now seneschals, A&S Ministers and marshalls, heads of households, Barons / Baronesses, and respected Knights, Laurels, and Pelicans.Change occurs, maybe not in the way, or timely manner, that we want.

3) LOL! Boy, you haven't met some of the new folks I know!!! Maybe some - new people often don't "rock the boat" becuase they aren't confident that they know the rules / customs / whatever involved. Or could t be they are shy, having been taught that "so and so is the resident Knight / Laurel / Pelican" and are a little embarrased to show how much of a novice they are?

I know you have had bad experiences, but I feel confident that yours are not representative of the average new person in the SCA...

Diolun

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Tue Jan 08, 2002 7:35 pm

Bascot you wrote
"When I walked in, only Templar Bob ooo'd and ahh'd my armour. Most of the rest looked at me with scorn. Duke Palymar of the Two Baronies was, and is to this day down right hostile to me."

It sounds like part one of your complaint is that you were not seen as the living arnmor god you are as soon as you walked on site. The attitude you are projecting on this post is one of disappointment that the savages were not impressed by your showing them a lighter or a majic talking box
Question - is your harness your work, or a comissioned piece? that would make a tremendous difference in the SCA in how you were viewed when first entering an event site. Pride in craftsmanship is one thing, pride in purchase is another (not that I haven't oooohed over a well crafted piece some one had comissioned)
I agree that the SCA is:
1) Hostile to anyone in full authentic kit.
Authentic horse muffins - they may have been hostile to you personally but from your previous posts they were probably reacting to the stuff in the can, not to the can itself(pimply overweight kids wining at me about using my del tin at events sound familiar?)
2) Hostile to anyone new who looks like they might upset the heirarchy.
Again any chance they were reacting to the attitude you project ?
3) The "little people" of the SCA are highly appreciative and very nice, but are too timid to deal with the peerage and their swaggering.
That is the most patronising thing I have ever read in my life. Who in Gods creation are you to define anyone as "little people"?
I assume that they were appreciative of the fact that you had chosen to brighten their lives by showing up.

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Tue Jan 08, 2002 7:48 pm

That is the most patronising thing I have ever read in my life. Who in Gods creation are you to define anyone as "little people"?

I am referring to those who do the work, wash the dishes, sit at troll, marshall the archery, wait the tables but never get diddly-squat in recognition. I don't consider them "little people", I consider them friends. The SCA tends to pass over the people who aren't the ego-stick-jocks, and these people appreciate what I do. Sorry if that came off as egotistical, but Templar Bob was the only one to appreciate the metal. Everyone else scolded me for being new and not wearing plastic and carpet.

I was actually told I should make neat things and give them to the peers, so once I became one people would give me stuff. I give stuff to newbees who have no kit to start with, not to brown-nose the "big shots."

[This message has been edited by Bascot (edited 01-09-2002).]

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Tue Jan 08, 2002 7:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Alcyoneus:
Like I said, it's the rudeness, not the accuracy that is frowned upon.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hate the term "authenticity nazi". For one thing, most of the people who are being referred to are just rude people. Rarely do they have any qualifications or even idea about authenticity, but are using the minimal knowledge that they have (often wrong) to gain some power over others (meant to boost their own ego by degrading or humiliating others). More commonly I see what I would term "ettiquette nazis" who are sure to correct people on "SCA" sumptuaries - appropriate use of titles belts, chains, ranks, names, etc. Most of the time I've seen people like this they are not Peers, but if a Peer does anything close, they are just far more memorable.

I know Laurels afraid to give any serious advice when asked, especially about costume. About 1/2 the time, even if they give honest and tactful advice, the person requested turned it into a "that evil Peer picked on me".

Juliana - evil costuming Laurel

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Tue Jan 08, 2002 8:17 pm

I hate to do it but would anyone like to read exerpts from an email I recieved from a peer....

(and your point? try sports equipment it works a bit better than malleable metals as it is specifically designed to take shots and disperse the force preventing damage)....

cavalry i have to run down an
archer to kill him without the benefit (not that i have ever needed it) of
my horse. not to mention that my armor seems never to deflect, lessen nor
block an arrow, even at 60 yards (hell, what i wear for the sca would
block, lessen or deflect most munitions rounds today at 60 yards, and its
mostly plastic.....).

These are from two different letters from the same peer posted on public forums. This is an attitude I have often had to deal with from SCAdians and while I have had good experiences in some places I have been in SCA other places that seem to fear a new face. When I first became Chatelaine of a group I have since helped totally turn around I was told and I qoute from the Senschal..."Posters? No don't put up any posters we have more people than we need right now." I was informed my job was just to help new people if they happened to show up but not to go looking for people that might want to join. You can guess what I did I put up posters.

This is not to say I hate SCA but I do understand if a person was to show up and be treated like they were unwanted, or that they needed to get plastic (I have been told that more than once) why the person would have an attitude about SCA. I know those things do happen its sad and I wish we had a beeter system but SCA does tend to attract some marginal people.

These statements are not meant to be sweeping statements just statements of my experience with the organization.

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Tue Jan 08, 2002 8:58 pm

Hi Bascot.

I respect your knowledge and appreciate your input. That being said, lately you just seem to go out of your way to irritate people and to be condescending for no reason. I don't understand it. It seems to me that you are holding your bad experiences with the SCA against members of this archive who often actually agree with much of what you say.

I love armour. I like people that try to more accurately represent medieval life in their clothing, armour and behavior within the context of the SCA. But I don't care if you are the second coming of Chandos, if you act like a jerk, people will treat you like a jerk. Speaking frankly, if you behaved at the meetings in a similar fashion to the way you are treating people on the archive, I'm amazed they were not openly hostile to you.

I am sorry you have had a bad time in the SCA. As you have seen in many of my posts, I have problems with the SCA too. But I try to fix it, not to pick on the group as a whole. Some of the older hippie type-living in their parents basement forever-unwashed-unemployed on the dole-fantasy members, the stick jock kings, and some of the chivalry regularly piss me off. So does the petty politics. But I don't condemn the SCA or the chivalry as a whole, I condemn the individuals who are problems. There are a lot of good people in the SCA. And in the East, many of the old timers and even a triple peer I can think of, work just as hard at the crap volunteer jobs as anybody else.

I don't mind Chef for example talking about problems with the SCA peerage from a detached perspective. I do mind your blanket condemnations of the SCA and its peerage as a broad generalization. I am a peer in the SCA. It does not make me more important, if anything I use it as a reminder that it is my responsibility to help, encourage and protect others, especially beginners or newcomers.

If you had walked into one of the meetings I was at, and someone treated you poorly ESPECIALLY for wearing period style armour, I would have shredded them verbally IN PUBLIC and then apologized to you for the shoddy treatment afforded you. I wish to encourage people to join the group and to make it better. Not to destroy it for the sins of the minority.

I would ask you to please cut the SCA some slack and not attack the group as a whole. I think that you have a lot to contribute and that you make excellent observations. But you seem to revel in hurting other people's feelings in a destructive way. If that is not your intention, great, but it is how you are coming across, at least to me.

[This message has been edited by Richard Blackmoore (edited 01-08-2002).]

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Tue Jan 08, 2002 9:00 pm

Richard - You sir are a gentleman. Nothing condescending intended at all by that statement.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Tue Jan 08, 2002 9:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by FrauHirsch:

Juliana - evil costuming Laurel

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She picked on me!

Some folks are better at constructive criticism than others. Is there really a good way to tell someone that the mail in the shirt they are making is 90 degrees off?

Or a simpler question: "Does this make me look fat?"

It is often a matter of perception.

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Tue Jan 08, 2002 9:10 pm

Thank you Bascot. I am sorry I got so upset. It is just with all the death, destruction and horrible things going on in the world and in my case close to home (I am about 40 miles away from ground zero), it drives me crazy that on the archive, we can't all get along better. It seems like lately, there is a lot of squabbling that is beneath our dignity and is counterproductive. I hate to see you or others get caught up in it.

Thanks for listening.

-Richard.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Tue Jan 08, 2002 11:16 pm

Hi Richard,

I don't mind Chef for example talking about problems with the SCA peerage from a detached perspective.

Thanks Richard. I inquired because I've seen recently a number of different things that have started my mind down a track or two. Firstly, I see people like yourself who would like to improve the overall authenticity of the Society - not in a drastic, harmful way, but in what I see as constructive, small, achievable goals. I also see in reaction to this what I percieve as a large ammount of resistance to any change being imposed, no matter how small.

I see people on the board, both members of the Chivalry, SCAdians who are not members of the chivalry, and even non-SCA members who strive very hard to make chivalry, in the best sense of the word, a vital part of thier life. I also have seen in the past members of the chivalry, non-members of same, and people associated with other groups who act in no wise chivalrous, regardless of what lip service they pay to it. As a result, the question arose about the policing of the unchivalrous louts who happen to make it to the peerage. I also wonder why some of the more chivalrous members who are not peers do not make it to the ranks of the chivalry.

I am also aware of people within the society who have given much to it, have participated much, and yet recieve no thanks or recognition. At the same time awards and thanks seem to come easy for others, regardless of how much weight they are pulling.

I am aware the society is a vast beast, and that a number of kingdoms handle matters very differently, and the monarchy changes twice yearly, but I am puzzled that a Society that espouses the best of the Chivalrous ideal sometimes displays this disparity.

In short, I hadn't normally frequented the Medieval combat board, but these various observations and questions I have made me start reading some of these posts, and then posting - sometimes in support of people whom I've taken a liking to who seem to have a worthy goal, or to ask my questions.

I'm glad that at least you don't mind my curiosity, or engaging in debate.

------------------
Bob R.

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Tue Jan 08, 2002 11:21 pm

Well Bascot, let's try this somewhat differently
Good Evening, I'm Mordreth (or in my living room in a Long Island Suburb Rich)
**************************************
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bascot:
"[B] I am referring to those who do the work, wash the dishes, sit at troll, marshall the archery, wait the tables but never get diddly-squat in recognition. I don't consider them "little people", I consider them friends. The SCA tends to pass over the people who aren't the ego-stick-jocks, and these people appreciate what I do. Sorry if that came off as egotistical, but Templar Bob was the only one to appreciate the metal."
***************************************
As to my persona (I know that's hated in some of the circles on this board but) I am a jumped up serjant who made good, I've kept a lot of the attiudes I had before being knighted.
I have cleaned halls, cooked feasts, toted and carried stuff for more years than I would care to think about. I run an open shop when the need arises to get new, or impecunious fighters into reasonably authentic, safe armor.
I am madly in love with the "shield wall". I think the SCA gives the average fighter a chance to experience real hardships, blood sweat toil and tears, and glory and honor.
I do what is possible to get these folks the training, education, and gear to enable them to advance as far as their abilities, and determination will take them.
My reaction to the "little people" comment was actually (believe me) less vehement than several peers have gotten from me when they made a similar statement.
****************************************
"Everyone else scolded me for being new and not wearing plastic and carpet."
*****************************************
Odd beyond my ability to comment, and my apologies
*****************************************
"I was actually told I should make neat things and give them to the peers, so once I became one people would give me stuff. I give stuff to newbees who have no kit to start with, not to brown-nose the "big shots.""
*******************************************
See my previous paragraph.
*******************************************
Apparently, I have hit a nerve with the "SCA peerage", judging from the reaction I got compared to who I was responding to. Reminds me of the song, "I used to live in a room full of mirrors, and all I could see was me".
*******************************************
Do me a small favor, take a step back and re-read your post and see if it could have come across as a bit egotistical.
Catch you later, I'm sure we'll lock horns again in the near future

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 12:02 am

"I was actually told I should make neat things and give them to the peers, so once I became one people would give me stuff."

That is the most bizarre concept I have ever heard of. I thought we Peers were supposed to give knowledge and things that would help others out, so that they would in turn bring up others... Its that Largesse thing...

Juliana

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 12:12 am

Quote from Chef: "I'm glad that at least you don't mind my curiosity, or engaging in debate."

I not only don't mind it, I encourage it and look forward to hearing what you have to say on a number of topics. There are certain people, including yourself, whose posts on authenticity related topics I make it a point to read. I have always thought that the SCA can benefit from a free interchange of research and ideas with non-SCA groups that nonetheless share a common interest in the medieval period.

[This message has been edited by Richard Blackmoore (edited 01-08-2002).]

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 12:21 am

Chef- I, too, look forward to reading your posts on the authenticity side.....your insights and information somtimes border on the downright amazing.....I only wish you could do it without the SCA bashing that normally follows...

I know we have butted heads lately, but I really respect what you, and your group do....and the efforts you take to do it....I would just like to see a little of that respect returned to those that are making the effort... becuase ...we really are trying to do some good here.

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 12:23 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Brennus:
I hate to do it but would anyone like to read exerpts from an email I recieved from a peer....

(and your point? try sports gear....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brennus, I think that is an "anti-authenticity nazi". They are a far more prevalent beast. My biggest gripe about bringing in newcomers is that few of them are told when buying fabric for their first costume - "The average person most commonly wore linen underclothes with wool outer clothing prior to 1600. Cotton-polyester blends rarely look anything like these fabrics. Go for solid muted for your first few costumes until you get the feel for period brocades." But most are introduced with "just any cotton-poly will do, only the authenticity nazis care about being totally period, we are in this for fun". The same with armor.

Now we do not mind recommending plastic for cuises, vambraces and body armor to get guys into armor quickly and cheaply, or to use as support under chain hidden by quilting within a gambeson. BUT they are not allowed near the field until its covered with leather or velvet and tacked down with pretty rivets and looks period -- much more period than some of the metal armor I've seen. Just because its steel doesn't mean it resembles anything authentic.

We sit down with new fighters and say "What is your persona? What do you want to look like when you are done? Lets find a book with a picture from the period that you will use as your guideline." Some, like me even, opt for another period until they can acquire their dream armor (or in my case find an armorer who can and will do it).

Juliana

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 12:57 am

Hi Sarnac,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Chef- I, too, look forward to reading your posts on the authenticity side.....your insights and information somtimes border on the downright amazing.....I only wish you could do it without the SCA bashing that normally follows...

I know we have butted heads lately, but I really respect what you, and your group do....and the efforts you take to do it....I would just like to see a little of that respect returned to those that are making the effort... becuase ...we really are trying to do some good here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't percieve in the majority of my posts an SCA bashing. I admit that time to time, I get peeved with particular people and what I percieve as their obtuseness on particular topics, and sometimes I let fly with an invective. I do not alway, nor even very often do this. There are none of us perfect.

I think you may interpret what is meant as constructive critisisim as an attack. It is not meant as such, but is usually intended to help people like Richard, or Vitus, or anybody engaged in particular debates make a point. If I did not respect many of the members of the SCA, I would not bother to make comments (for good or ill) or help, I would just blow the lot of you off and surf elsewhere. Were I of the childish sort, I might intentionally start a flamewar under a rude name, same something particullarly "intelligent", such as "The SCA sucks!" and wander off chuckling to myself after watching the lot of you suffer near anurisims in rage, and post a stream of invective in my direction.

I always try to aide those interested in authenticity. Sometimes that manifests itself by defending them when I percieve their position to be attacked. In the case of simple attempts like Richard has recently proposed to further a extremely basic minimum standard, I see a resistance to such change, no matter how small. I also see an attitude that trying to do things authenticaly is somehow intrinsicly not fun. I even see a resistance by some to the concept of disciplining members of the chivalry or peers who have commited felonies, and have thus brought dishonour to the chivalry or peerage.

In short, I always try to stand up for what I believe is right, no matter how popular or unpopular.

I am also sure that if many of us who occasionaly rant at each other on this board were to meet face to face, and chat around a table, or over a beer, we would get along with no problem whatsoever. Much of the emotion people derive from posts in this medium is read into it by the reader, and not neccessarily a correct appraisal of the intended tone of the author of a post.

------------------
Bob R.

outriderstudios · Post by **outriderstudios** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 1:04 am

Allow me to add my voice to what Chef's saying. People tend to take things pretty personally on the Internet. It's part of the anonymity and detachment; we suddenly feel far more aggressive behind a keyboard. Lord knows I've had a lot of things said to me online that I KNOW people would never say in real life, and vice versa.

I find it's best not to take things personally. It only leads to ulcers. I don't hold anything against Gundo for the massive dust-up we're currently wrangling on the Off Topic board, and I hope he feels the same.

And anyone who's ever witnessed any of the tangles Bascot and I get into around here would be amazed at how we interact out in the real world.

Paul/Azrael
House Ironstar, Barony of Sternfeld, Midrealm

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 1:27 am

I have yet to run into someone that tried to pick me apart. I doubt i would be kind, gentle or nice to them. "that tunic looks bad, the wool is a 3/2 twill, and it wasnt used.."
"excuse me, did i ask for your opinion harpy?" and walk away.
If I ask, or you approach me in a pleasant way "gee, you know i noticed you actually gored your tunic, are you interested in authentic construction? "
"yes"
"well you might think about looking for a 2/1 twill, you can usually tell because it looks like..."
That's fine by me. polite and helpful= nice G
Snobbish asshole= Not nice George

-+G

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 2:18 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by chef de chambre:
I am also aware of people within the society who have given much to it, have participated much, and yet recieve no thanks or recognition. At the same time awards and thanks seem to come easy for others, regardless of how much weight they are pulling.

I'm glad that at least you don't mind my curiosity, or engaging in debate.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chef, are you saying the society is kind of like the real world?

I don't know how much of the SCA you have seen Chef, but I think one generalization probably holds true, with this (or the real world).

It is the extremes (good or bad, marginal or exceptional), and the noisy that gets noticed the most.

Reinhard · Post by **Reinhard** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 5:34 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by FrauHirsch:
 We sit down with new fighters and say "What is your persona? What do you want to look like when you are done? Lets find a book with a picture from the period that you will use as your guideline." Some, like me even, opt for another period until they can acquire their dream armor (or in my case find an armorer who can and will do it).
Juliana<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This very point almost made me forget the SCA entirely, I was told that persona is unimportant and the main concern is to get people fighting. WHen I continued (and I can be very diplomatic when I want my way) and suggested that we could look at the options that the particular persona offered, the person in question and the harpy (love that term) filled coterie of yes-persons became aggressive.
The fighting rig down through the centuries is one of the most beautiful things mankind has accomplished IMO, there's an elegance in the strict form-follows-function that the offensive/defensive arms race has mandated. While I greatly prefer 15th c. equipment, I take great joy in peascod breastplates from later periods and immensely admire the full malle rig of the Norman era (an ethocentric term). It is immediately obvious, however, to a laymember as well as an afficianado that a spang does not go with a breastplate does not go with centre round etc etc.
Anyway, treading the path of an armour fan and trying to raise standards, even just a low level such as 'no plastic visible please', you will constantly be labelled with pejoratives such as 'nazi' and 'snob'.

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 8:11 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I dropped Palymar a line to see if he remebered the incident in question...
just to get his view of the altercation...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good, and while you are at it, ask him the name of that "knight" I fought in my first authorization attempt in South Bend. Seems that after Palymar went out and whispered to him, he suddenly started hitting so hard he dented the 16 guage steel on my cuisses 3 times, as well as wrapping the coutier all the way around my knee. I've always wondered who that was that would hit a newbie that hard in spite just to make points to a "big shot". And ask him about his laughing comments that evening to our group after I dislocated my knee at an event he was marshalling in Illinios and had to be hauled off in an ambulance. But then again, I know Palymar well enough to realize he will have selective memory and will say whatever is politically expedient. (And he won't know who "Bascot" is, he would know Geoffrey de Leon, Asure, a cross erminois & overall a lion rampant argent.)

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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"

Conrad the Mad · Post by **Conrad the Mad** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 9:51 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bascot:
Good, and while you are at it, ask him the name of that "knight" I fought in my first authorization attempt in South Bend. Seems that after Palymar went out and whispered to him, he suddenly started hitting so hard he dented the 16 guage steel on my cuisses 3 times, as well as wrapping the coutier all the way around my knee. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bascot, having met you I know you are a nice guy and like to play "devils advocate" on this board.

That said, if you ever want to play again in South Bend please dont hesitate. I will be taking over the Knights Marshall position here in South Bend before the year is out, and nothing like what you mentioned will happen while I am around. Hjalmer will back me up on this, we play as fair as we can, and if someone is hitting that hard, Knight or newbie, they will be given a warning first then yanked from the field if need be.
This is a game and injuries dont need to happen, and I will try to make sure they dont happen on my watch.

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Member of House Red Winged Lion
Man-at-arms to Robert' De'Tyre

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 9:54 am

For those that are wondering....

I deleted my posts to Bascot because they were posted while I was somewhat angry and I refuse to let my temper overrule my sensibilities.

I apoligize to you Bascot....
For my words,
and for your experience which you say changed you.

I cannot, through words, change your mind. Especially harsh ones, made in haste.

That said....I will always defend those I care for and what I believe in, and always say and do what I feel is right regardless of consequences.

I hope you find what you are looking for....I truly do...and I am sorry you couldnt find it with us.

Also...Palymar answered me and with your permission I would like to post his reply....he has already said it was ok.

[This message has been edited by sarnac (edited 01-09-2002).]

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 11:53 am

Sure, I would love to hear what Palymar has to say. I've never heard his opinion, only seen his behavior, and drawn my own conclusions accordingly.
I accept your apology and wish to apologize in return for my ungracious comment which I shall also delete.
Thanks.

Torvald · Post by **Torvald** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 11:56 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by chef de chambre:
Hi All,

I just feel the need after some recent debates to point out when people who are interested in authenticity are treated predjudicialy

- Quoth Torvald I think I'll keep a running tab of them for a month or so, and make a general report at the end of it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well besides being compleatly out of context, it sounds like you might be an "Auth. Nazi" if you r only goal in life is to point out how much better you are at peirod garb and needs to abuse those who haven't had the time or resources to atain your superior level of greatness.

I have run across a few of these and they ruin it for everyone around. But this is far from the norm (at least in my area) I have had nothing but good people willing to help you, in what is reconized as a hobby, to meet you goals.

Torvald

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 12:15 pm

Hi Torvald,
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by chef de chambre:
Hi All,
I just feel the need after some recent debates to point out when people who are interested in authenticity are treated predjudicialy

- Quoth Torvald I think I'll keep a running tab of them for a month or so, and make a general report at the end of it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well besides being compleatly out of context, it sounds like you might be an "Auth. Nazi" if you r only goal in life is to point out how much better you are at peirod garb and needs to abuse those who haven't had the time or resources to atain your superior level of greatness.

I have run across a few of these and they ruin it for everyone around. But this is far from the norm (at least in my area) I have had nothing but good people willing to help you, in what is reconized as a hobby, to meet you goals.

Torvald<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to put the text up there.

Now how do you derive
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Well besides being compleatly out of context, it sounds like you might be an "Auth. Nazi" if you r only goal in life is to point out how much better you are at peirod garb and needs to abuse those who haven't had the time or resources to atain your superior level of greatness.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From my pointing out that you made a statement predjudicial against people interested in authenticity within the Society? Please enlighten me.

I think you have shown your own bias very clearly in your response to me in this post. Did I deride your own efforts in any way? Please tell me how I have.

From the two posts I have seen from you on this thread, I would surmise that you are hostile to those who try to be authentic. You claim these people (and I in some way), have attacked you. Perhaps they have, but I do not see how you can construe what I have written as an attack on your personal level of authenticity. Since I have not seen your kit, how could I possibly appraise it in any fashion? I don't generally "appraise" things unless someone askes the question.

You were merely the first person to use the term "authenticity nazi" after I had considered making a tally of how often the word was used. Can you logically make the case that said term is not predjudicial, nor does it bear a strong negative connotation?

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Bob R.

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 3:00 pm

Bascot...

His reply follows...

"Your Higness,

Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

And feel free to post the following for me: and correct my spelling :-)

I have no recollection of this man or this incident!!!
From the description, it probably happened about 10 - 11 years ago.

There have been one or two period harnesses that I have failed in the past because they were not safe for SCA use.
The way he describes his helmet, it may be that I did not feel that "locking" his head to his breast plate would be a safe design. But it is possible that I made a mistake and was not knowledgable enough about the way his armor worked.

I am truely sorry that I left such a bad impression on Bascot.
There ARE a handful of people in the SCA that I admit to being "down right hostile to", however, the name Bascot is not one
of them.

My e-mail is palymar@indy.rr.com and I would welcome the chance to apoligize to Bascot in person if give the chance."

Palymar

And then followed up by

Your Highness,

I just read the rest of the comments on that page.

I do remember the guy that blew his knee out at an Illinois event. He was wearing 110+ lbs of perfectly period horse tournement armor completely inapportiate for foot combat in the SCA.
In addition, he was out of shape and, it was my understanding, that he had never worn the
complete harness before that day. However, after he was hurt, I ran to get ice and a medic. I stood over him to make sure that
only people who know what they were doing helped him. (there is a story I tell about worthless chiergions that involves this incident)

As far as the authorization goes, all I can say is that I have never told an authorizer to "beat up" on someone who is authortizing.
If I had known that he was abused, I would have "discussed" it with the fighter responsible.

It is obvious that I have made a permanent enemy of Bascot which is unfortunate since it was not my intention.

-Palymar

Torvald · Post by **Torvald** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 3:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by chef de chambre:
Hi Torvald,
From my pointing out that you made a statement predjudicial against people interested in authenticity within the Society? Please enlighten me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't believe I did.. Again if taken in context of the orignal message posted by Aron and my entire reply to him. I stated (maybe poorly) that only a "Auth. Nazi" would go around telling someone the were not authentic enough to be seen on site, and that this is NOT representive of the experinc I have had overall. I have been snubed and looked down upon by thoses that should know better in the past but I don't hold a few AS****** as representive of the whole.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I think you have shown your own bias very clearly in your response to me in this post. Did I deride your own efforts in any way? Please tell me how I have.

From the two posts I have seen from you on this thread, I would surmise that you are hostile to those who try to be authentic. You claim these people (and I in some way), have attacked you. Perhaps they have, but I do not see how you can construe what I have written as an attack on your personal level of authenticity. Since I have not seen your kit, how could I possibly appraise it in any fashion? I don't generally "appraise" things unless someone askes the question.
[/QOUTE]

As for thoses who would "attack" me or my group I've got a middle finger for them just before I would walk away. I have no time for jerks either in my hobby or the restof my life.

As for you I never claimed you attacked me, I was mearly pointing out that your egerness for authenticty was comming very close to that "nazish" atitude. I was trying to get you to see that some of the posts were comming across sounding harsh and I failed.

and just as an a side, I am a member of a re-enactment group that does a 14c English Archer company. We require a valid attempt at looking the part, from home made undergarments to self made bows and arrows with horn knocks. We also relize nobody is going to have this stuff laying around the basement waiting to be used. So you will find members who are still working on thier kit and in the mean time make do. (more below)

[QUOTE]
You were merely the first person to use the term "authenticity nazi" after I had considered making a tally of how often the word was used. Can you logically make the case that said term is not predjudicial, nor does it bear a strong negative connotation?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I can not. It is suposed to be a strong and negative comment! If it was ment to be a polite term of endearment I don't think the word "NAZI" would have been included as it generaly has a bad assoiation with some guys from the 40's.

I don't know maybe it's a regional thing. But it is used to refer to the small minded pety people who have nothing better to do than berate those who are still in the "Make do" period of the hobby. Everyone starts out in a polyester T tunic and sweats, while they decide if and how much they want to further thier venture into the middle ages.

Torvald
(all spelling mistakes are mine and not the computers)

Reinhard · Post by **Reinhard** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 3:36 pm

I've just reread my post, and I'm concerned that I may come across as bitter and fixated on the SCA as 'a nest of vipers'.
This is not true, I think very highly of the SCA and every friend I have here in my new homw is SCA! In fact, my entire knowledge of armouring derives from free tutoring of an SCA armourer, a guy who is very concerned with historical authenticity (apart from the answers I derive from this forum!)
So if I whinge about so-and-so in the SCA, I'm sure I'd have some bitch about someone in whatever group I was in.
Anyway, I don't hate the SCA, I still think it is a wonderful organisation and I fully agree with those who say that change comes from within.
Now, to get my squash ball psuedo-hachebuchse recognised as a valid light weapon . . .

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 8:00 pm

I decided to resurrect this post because of some very constructive remarks made in the original post that I thought were helpful and gave an enlightened view of what can be done to make the Society even better.

I now very much regret that decision.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 8:45 pm

Bob:

Well, most of the early posts fit that desire. At least you tried.

On balance, there is some good information here. (Now, if we can apply for a big government grant and hire a pet sociologist to analyze the data...)

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Wed Jan 09, 2002 9:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>From the description, it probably happened about 10 - 11 years ago.

There have been one or two period harnesses that I have failed in the past because they were not safe for SCA use.
The way he describes his helmet, it may be that I did not feel that "locking" his head to his breast plate would be a safe design.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, this one was the close helm, not the frog-faced jousting helm. It locked with a strap the visor over the bevor to the helm, but with no chin strap.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I am truely sorry that I left such a bad impression on Bascot.
There ARE a handful of people in the SCA that I admit to being "down right hostile to", however, the name Bascot is not one
of them.

My e-mail is palymar@indy.rr.com and I would welcome the chance to apoligize to Bascot in person if give the chance."

Palymar<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this apology still rides now that you know who I am, then I accept it, and furthermore, apologize for all the snide remarks I have made about you in the past.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I do remember the guy that blew his knee out at an Illinois event. He was wearing 110+ lbs of perfectly period horse tournement armor completely inapportiate for foot combat in the SCA.
In addition, he was out of shape and, it was my understanding, that he had never worn the
complete harness before that day.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, it was about 70 lbs of horse armour, and I wound up using it for years both on horseback and fighting live steel. I fought SCA with the entire harness, but I substituted a globose segmented breastplate & mail fauld for the difficult to manuever fixed breast/fauld/tassets I was wearing that day.

I was actually in shape at that time (much better than now, or when Palymar last saw me) I had worn that harness several times, but not nearly enough I will readily admit. The dislocation of my knee was a bad step in a hole with the weight, a "freak" accident.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>However, after he was hurt, I ran to get ice and a medic. I stood over him to make sure that
only people who know what they were doing helped him. (there is a story I tell about worthless chiergions that involves this incident)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is true, he stayed with me until the ambulance came, he did his duty extremely well, I have no problem with this incident.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As far as the authorization goes, all I can say is that I have never told an authorizer to "beat up" on someone who is authortizing.
If I had known that he was abused, I would have "discussed" it with the fighter responsible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was an earlier incident in N. Indiana, and while I admit I was not ready to authorize (this according to Patty's observations, she said I looked over-heated) you did walk out and talk to the knight, then he started wailing on me. I have never been hit that hard before or after by a rattan weapon, including when Vitus "tested" me for calibration with a pollaxe at Kinser.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It is obvious that I have made a permanent enemy of Bascot which is unfortunate since it was not my intention.

-Palymar<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any man big enough to apologize to me I will forgive and forget, if that is still your intention.

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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"