Need Help With - Leather Treatments And Finishes

[snakejawz]

I have been toying around with chainmail for awhile now (about 8 months) and making minor projects for myself.

i just recently got into leatherworking as well and have been enjoying it immensely. (i used to tool abit when i was young)

i am currently working on a armoring project, building a cuirass of leather plates. very similar to Lamelar, bound together with chainmail links.

the chain links give it a very different design and allows the leather to bend at pre-defined joints very well.

im currently using 2"x3" leather plates (from cow shoulders), thickness varies but is generally around 7-8oz.

this armor isnt designed for SCA combat or heavy use, mostly for show.
the plates are overlapping in a scale pattern similar to a snakes belly. overlapping vertically, but being jointed horizontally.

i promise i will have pics soon.

either way, enough lead-in.

my question concerns the myriad of finishes that people tend to use to finish leather armor.

just a few i've seen; neatsfoot, tung, linseed, olive, and various nut oils.
also seen recommendations for shellac and lacquer.
as well as a few wild suggestions involving a dilute of waterproof wood glue.

my goal for this armor is simple, i want to darken it, as dark as walnut if possible not black, i dont really want to harden it too much as the plates are thin and for show mostly, and of course i want to weather-protect it.

if i could also do this in a 'dip' for the whole suit at once, that would be awsome.

what are your suggestions?

(cost would also be a issue, tung and neatsfoot range 20$ a bottle, so im trying to keep it around there)

[Kilkenny]

Minwax Special Walnut wood stain for the color.

You can then, after it dries, dip in acrylic floor polish as a seal coat.

Tandy sells a product called "Acrylic Resolene" at a much higher price per unit volume. It does not work any better than the floor polish, IMO.

[bhaiduk]

Here is what I started out using to dye with. http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/home/department/Liquids-N/2600-131.aspx?feature=Product_4. It comes in lot's of colors. Also it's water based which makes clean up easier, but it will have more of a tendency to run if it gets wet. To help with that I use http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/home/department/Liquids-N/2610-136.aspx?feature=Product_5 or http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/home/department/Liquids-N/2611-137.aspx?feature=Product_29. Both of these are sealers with different finishes. All these are availiable online, or if you live in a bigger city there is probably a Tandy leather store where you can get it and safe on shipping. I've always found the people at Tandy to be really nice and helpful. If you are going to do much leather work, I would get to know them.

BTW are you trying to make something like this:

If so, please upload pics when you are done. I've always wanted to make one myself.

[/img]

[bhaiduk]

I'd listen to what Kilkenny says, he knows what he is talking about.

[snakejawz]

very similar to the pic bhaiduk, im using *much* larger leather plates with 1/2in 14ga galvy rings.

each ring goes through the 4 surrounding plates in corner holes 1/4in from each side.

this allows the rows to butt up next to each other very tightly with the upper row overlapping the lower about 1/2in scaling downward.

here is a ascii art pic

|___|.|___|.|___| \/ overlapping direction
|___|.|___|.|___|
|___|.|___|.|___|

.'s are the ring joints, they stand vertical to the armor plane

[snakejawz]

Pics!





i actually have about twice as much done now, im almost complete with the main front part of the cuirass.


and from these pics, you can see i have alot of different projects that share the same workspace.

[snakejawz]

no takers i guess?

[snakejawz]

went home and poked around with the idea that Kilkenny suggested.

then i came up with a kinda weird question.

wood stains ment for fencing and decking already are treated for weather/waterproofing and have mildicides (spelling?) already in them.

could something like that work for a cheap project?

considering a gallon runs around 20 bucks and can be tinted to whatever color you want.

[Konstantin the Red]

Should work. Tint first, then neatsfoot oil compound, which will further darken.

Welcome and well come to the Archive, Snakejawz. May your stay with us be long and profit you much.

Have you ambitions beyond this cuirass? You speak of having done leather tooling, which is a bit of a step up on some of the new chums we get.

[snakejawz]

Ambitions i have tons of, time is another story.

as far as my tooling experience goes, boyscouts stuff, nothing professional.

but i do have a natural ability to work with my hands on just about anything.

once i get the cuirass finished i plan on adding some greaves and bracers/wristguards to the mix. im really liking the idea of riveted splints on the bracers.

i also plan on adding a small kite shield bearing my family crest, i figure it would be a nice touch.

:EDIT: on a side note, where do you guys get the crests for your avatar pics?

[bhaiduk]

:EDIT: on a side note, where do you guys get the crests for your avatar pics?

I made mine in paint, but there is a dude running around here who can do some cool looking ones for a little change.

[snakejawz]

I made mine in paint

i had the image, for some reason it slipped my mind, now it's fixed with the proper crest.

but enough derailing, any other topical suggestions?

by the way, im still thinking the wood dye/sealant is a awsome idea.

[Linse]

bhaiduk and snakejawz, I do like the armour pics there, could you please identify the period and name/type of the armour. It appears to be a varient of lamellar, please correct me if wrong.

[bhaiduk]

The picture I posted came from: http://www.plcommonwealth.org/articles.htm It's the document labeled section 4 "Arms and Armour of the Commonwealth" (Sorry should have included the link orignially). Basically, it's a type of Russian or other Eastern armor. I would suggest checking here:http://web.archive.org/web/20071012033618/www.geocities.com/normlaw/page9.html. It's a great article about mail and plates in general not only the berkheter.

[Kilkenny]

bhaiduk and snakejawz, I do like the armour pics there, could you please identify the period and name/type of the armour. It appears to be a varient of lamellar, please correct me if wrong.

I recall that one of the variations on the small plates linked by maille is Turkish and known by the name jazzerant (sp?) I've always thought it a particularly cool kind of armour.

[Konstantin the Red]

One Z... from the Arabic by way of, hmm, Spanish it seems.

jazerant
\jaz"er*ant\ (?), n. [of. jacerant, jaseran, sp. jacerina, cota jacerina, fr. jazarino algerine, fr. ar. jazāīr algiers.] a coat of defense made of small plates of metal sewed upon linen or the like; also, this kind of armor taken generally; as, a coat of jazerant.

[snakejawz]

i am definately liking working this in leather, it creates a hinge movement that is very fluid.

i get the impression this would work very well with very hard leather plates. (obviously since it works with steel)

honestly, the 'style' of leather was somewhat based on lamelar.
i pretty much looked at normal lamelar and said to myself "i dont like the laces, how can i do that with chainmail rings?" somewhere after that the lames became horizontal instead of vertical, i thought the snakeskin pattern looked cooler. i wasnt intending for a historical look, but if there is something close, i definately would like to look more authentic.

one of the SCA guys that works for Tandy here suggested a dilute of titebond woodglue (type 3?) into a gallon of water (1cup to 1gal i think) for hardening and waterproofing, but i also wanted to dye it too.

has anyone else done this?

[TheBoneCarver]

+1 on the listen to Kilkenny.

This is a picture of my fencing gorget... dyed with Tandy's pro dye then slathered in Future floor wax (which is a liquid acrylic).

I applied with a brush instead of dipping. I would brush a coat on one side, then the other, allow to dry then repeat the process. Four coats on the outside and four on the inside and I can take a shot to the throat that knocks me over without it getting anywhere near my neck.

[snakejawz]

Bone Carver, i definately love that piece, the slightly cherry finish is very slick looking too.

thanks for the comments.

[Kilkenny]

one of the SCA guys that works for Tandy here suggested a dilute of titebond woodglue (type 3?) into a gallon of water (1cup to 1gal i think) for hardening and waterproofing, but i also wanted to dye it too.

has anyone else done this?

The diluted Titebond 3 is part of a heat hardening process. You dip the leather into the dilute solution and then heat it to about 180 F. The magic number is 167 F, at which temp. the proteins in the leather undergo changes that result in hardening of the leather. You don't want to go much above 180 and you definitely want to stay below 212.

The leather should be removed from the oven when it starts looking dry. Don't wait for it to look entirely dry, but when any portion appears dry, pull it out of the heat. Then let it dry for three days (literally) before putting a sealant on it. I use a large tray (litter box type) with about an inch of acrylic floor polish in the bottom, for dipping the heat treated pieces. If there is still water in them from the prior process, the acrylic finish tends to fog - hence the three day drying period.

The result of this is hard, light in weight and water resistant but not really waterproof. It will remain hard even if water does get into it, but you'll see some color changes as the water gets to the leather.

You can dye after the heat hardening but before the acrylic seal.

It takes dye very differently after hardening than it does before. This can make for some really nice results - - if you experiment a bit and understand how the hardened leather takes dye

It's also possible to use the floor polish as the hardening agent, and is an easier process, although not at all historic .

Just soak your pieces of leather in the floor polish until the bubbles stop coming out (or nearly so - I've had some pieces that seemed to keep bubbling in a spot or two for an incredibly long time) and then either hang them up (someplace where dripping polish won't be a problem) or lay them out on waxed paper. The drying acrylic makes a moderately good adhesive, so watch out for that.

[snakejawz]

thats a great post Kilkenny, i dont think i fully understood the titebond would still require a additional waterproofing layer.

so far neatsfoot will give me the color i want + waterproofing
the woodglue + dye + acrylic will give me color, hardness, and water resistant

and the stain + acrylic will get me color and water resistance

back to your first comment about minwax wood stain, the one you mentioned is a oil-based stain, how does that affect the leather?

i love the idea of using acrylic to lock it down, what about poly?

alot of these products ive worked with in the building industry, but leather is such a unique material it continues to dumbfound me.

[Kilkenny]

thats a great post Kilkenny, i dont think i fully understood the titebond would still require a additional waterproofing layer.

so far neatsfoot will give me the color i want + waterproofing
the woodglue + dye + acrylic will give me color, hardness, and water resistant

and the stain + acrylic will get me color and water resistance

back to your first comment about minwax wood stain, the one you mentioned is a oil-based stain, how does that affect the leather?

i love the idea of using acrylic to lock it down, what about poly?

alot of these products ive worked with in the building industry, but leather is such a unique material it continues to dumbfound me.

I've done one piece using the Minwax Special Walnut Stain, and then sealing with acrylic floor polish. I ought to do more The one constantly gets comments on the unique and very nice color.

Neatsfoot oil is not a coloring agent for leather. On application it will temporarily darken the leather, but it's not a long term darkening. Neatsfoot and then leaving it in the sun for a day or two *will* darken the leather and the color can be very attractive, but it's only a couple of shades more intense than whatever the leather started as.

Poly as in polyurethane ? I'm not certain. I know that some people have had great results using one of the Delf wood finishes, but I don't know which one and I don't know whether other brands of similar product would also work or if there is something about the Delf formulation that is especially good with leather.

There are a great many products that work for wood that are also just fine for leather. Aniline dyes being one good example.

The oil based aspect of Minwax - not to worry, no problem with the leather.

[snakejawz]

awsome feedback Kilkenny,

i will definately look into the wood stains as a good option, and economically they are right in the price range.

:EDIT: you have some very pretty tooling on your site.